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Featured The Inquisitions

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by tabletalk, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he changes the subject a lot.
    However, to say that "everything" comes from God, including sin is false.
     
  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i would agree, but i guess many would not
     
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And those who believe that God is the author of evil can't be followers of Christ.
     
  4. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that which was said by OUR Savior! Matthew 5-17-- Do Not Think, [ which seems to be the battle cry for most new age believers]. Do not think, for one second that I have come to destroy, annual, make go away, or sweep under the rug, My Fathers Words, and the Prophet's, I did not come to destroy, annual, the words of my Father, But to Fulfill. This is where Our Savior started to teach His Disciples, 5-1, seeing the multitudes! [ who He left down the mountain] climbed the mountain, and when He was seated, His Disciples came to Him, and He began to teach them. And if any man breaks one of the Least of these Commandment's, he shall be called least in the Kingdom, BUT if any man doe's these Commandments, AND Teaches others to do so, then that Man shall be Called Great in the Kingdom. So here we are only in Matthew 5- and there has not been given any New Commandment's From Our Savior, So what Commandment's Is He Speaking about. Also Our Savior repeatedly declared that He Came in His Father's Name, He also declared that what he see the Father doing, that is what He Doe's. Read Deuteronomy 18-15-20 -- read also Matthew 7:21-23, here Our Savior takes us to the day of Judgment, and the ones He declared, I Know You Not You Worker's Of Iniquity. Iniquity strongs #458 Anomia- A = without Nomia = the Law, and or Torah!
     
  5. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    T-
    1. I don't believe Jesus came to destroy or do away with the Law. As Paul indicates in Romans 7-8, the Law is good. Jesus did not come to advance lawlessness. However, Jesus DID come to fulfill the Law. Jesus met the mandates of the Law on our behalf. Thus, we are not people who are wed to the Law and under its regulations and demands. We have already met its regulations. As Paul says, "We have died to the Law" and now we live for Christ. Paul did not teach people to break the commandments of God. Yet he also did not teach people that their relationship with God was based on legal adherence. There is a big distinction there that I think you need to understand.

    2. If you believe we are to be keepers of the Law, do you insist on tithes in addition to the other required giving that is mandated in the Old Covenant? Do you believe that those who do not tithe "are under a curse" or do you believe Jesus took that curse upon himself by being hung on a tree? Do you believe you are required to keep all the feasts? Do you believe you are required to sacrifice animals or circumcise children? Which of the hundreds of commands in the Law do you determine are relevant for what God requires of you and which are not required? I assume you understand Jesus to be the substitute for the sacrificial demands of the law, but why not the other requirements? Why does Jesus only fulfill the demands of the law for atonement and sacrifice, but not for Sabbath rest, feasts, diets etc?

    3. Finally, Hebrews makes it very clear that the old has passed away. We are no longer under the old covenant. The Law has not been eliminated, however our relationship with God is no longer based on that Law. We are in a new covenant. We have a new contract with God. That contract is not based on "do this and live." It is based on "believe in my son and live." To turn back to regulations and legal requirements is to undermine the new contract God has set up for us in the blood of Jesus. Jesus MET the requirements of the Law so we could die to it and live in freedom. Jesus became sin for us so we could become the righteousness of God. Our righteousness, therefore, is not based on keeping the Sabbath, but faith and obedience toward the Son of God.

    4. What does it mean to be obedient to the Son of God? As I said, grace does not promote lawlessness. Jesus did not save us so we could be given to sin. However, he also did not save us so we could try to live again under the regulations of the old covenant that was ineffective in helping a sinful humanity. The Old Covenant pointed people to the New. The call of Christ is for us to love one another and live according to the Spirit. Jesus said his command was "to love one another as I have loved you." Loving Jesus and loving one another is the call of the new covenant we have with God. As Paul said,

    “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.” (Galatians 5:3–6, ESV)
     
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  6. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    ok then what is evil? and how is it that it exists without God? as you say. how can anything be if God didn't make it?

    isn't it the Catholic creed that God made all things visible and invisible? how is it that evil isn't included in this? you seem to be going out side of Catholicism there breadoflife.
     
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  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, even though i agree with him, the point was that at enough remove, everything can be said to "come from God," even evil.
     
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  8. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***

    And WHO did He say it to? Wasn't it the Jews who were under the law?
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No - evil is a byproduct of free will.
    God creates the MEANS for evil - but is not the CAUSE of evil.

    To say that God is the Author of evil is heresy.
     
  10. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    Luke's Epistle was an attempt to set the Witness of the Gospel in chronological order, so if Zacharias and Elizabeth were blameless before the Law, what doe's that have to do with being a Jew, Your statement declared that no human could keep the Law. Zacharias was a Kohan Preist, so He had to keep more than the average Jew, for some commandments were for children, some for women, some for men, some for Levit's some for the Kohan, and some for the High Priest the Kohan Gadol. the Scripture testifies that it was possible, also at the time Luke wrote His Epistle, it was for all, not just the Jews.
     
  11. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you, do you believe that the Basic 10 Commandment's would be considered Legalistic.
    I never said that I believed that keeping the Commandment's was going to get me into Life, I do understand who I believe in, why I believe, and what I believe.

    in #2 you ask about Tithe's, the one thing that Christianity has carried over into the Faith, and yes I do tithe! also the sacrificial system was shut down, through the destruction of the Temple, which was ordained by God. you see there was never a sacrifice for willful Sin, and Our Savior was that Sacrifice for all the willful Sin in the world. Yes I Keep the Sabbath, I also keep Kosher, and I also keep the Feast's, they are not only a joy to keep, But they were fulfilled by Our Savior, at least the Spring Feast's, the Fall Feast's will be Fulfilled in the Future, for they are a shadow of thing's to come.
    Let me ask you one other question, do you understand, that at the time of Our Savior's Ministry, that the Hebrew people were under a new Religion, created by the Sadusess and the Pharisees, for over three hundred years these Pharisees had claimed that there were two Torah's, and only they the Pharisees could interpret scripture. They added sooooo many Law's that the average Jew was not able to keep the Sabbath, and to this day it is still the same. I keep the Feast's because they were What Stephen called the Living Oricals, in the old testament they are called Holy Convocations, basically means = set apart rehearsals. Example when Jesus came into Jerusalem on the colt of a Donkey, it was the 10th day of the month of Aviv. Every year for a thousand years, on this day the priest would walk to Bethlehem to choose the most perfect Lamb, for the Nation of Israel, for the Passover. Thousands of Jews would come up to Jerusalem early for the Feast of Passover, and they would bring with them Ceder bow's and Palm pron's. So when the priest reentered the north gate the hundreds of priest that were waiting for his return, would begin to shout, Hosanna in the Highest blessed is he who come's in the name of the Lord, then the thousands of Jews that came up for the Feast would run out from where they were and begin to do the same, and also waving these ceder and palm branches, then they would lay their garments down on the path the Priest was taking up to the Temple. BUT this year Jesus sent His Disciples to the north Gate, and when Jesus entered the Gate, Just ahead of the Priest, His Disciples started to shout,which began the unstoppable rehearsal, that they had done for at least a thousand years. The priest told Jesus to tell His Disciples to shut up, and He replied! I will not, I will not, if the rocks have to cry it out then the rocks will cry it out. Our Savior just fulfilled a living Oriacle. By the way Bethlehem in Hebrew means = House of Bread, The Bread of life was born in Bethlehem, among the Sheep folds that the Temple Priest's had within the area of the Town, The Lamb of God, The Bread of Life. A very rich and wonderful reason to keep the Feast's.
     
  12. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    who created freewill? and since He created the means then He created the cause.

    who created and or made Satan? which according to Jesus is the father of lies?
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    God created Satan - but Satan chose to do evil.
    God is not the author of evil - otherwise HE would be called the "Father of lies".

    Why
    do you suppose He's not??
     
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  14. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    but did Satan actually chose, or is Satan what he is made to be? Jesus did say satan s the father of lies but is that an oops on Gd's part or an anticipated result of making satan? God made darkness, what makes you think it was made to be anything else?

    surly you understand darkness is a place for what God judges belongs there, as well as Light is a place for what God judges belongs there.

    also back to the question at hand how is it you would see that God didn't make evil? did He declare that if Adam would eat of the tree, Adam would die? Adam and satan didn't make the tree, Adam and satan didn't set the tree in the garden nor did they command not to eat of it.


    a judge is responsible for what is evil by judging it accordingly even if it is to sustain that it is evil in the judge's judgement. he who sets the law judges what is evil to those bound t the same.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    First of all - God doesn't make mistakes or "oops".
    He is perfect and His will is perfect (Matt. 5:48).

    Secondly - before Adam had a chance to do evil - it already existed with Satan.

    Finally, just because God judges what is evil and what is not - that does NOT mean that He created evil.
    1 Cor. 14:33 states that God is not the author of confusion. Does confusion exist? Yes - but He did not create it.

    1 Tim. 2:4 states that God wills the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.
    Will ALL be saved?? No - but that doesn't mean that HE is responsible for that. Free will is what created evil.
     
  16. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    you said:
    "Does confusion exist? Yes - but He did not create it."

    if we look at the text:



    1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


    if you note the underlined and if removed since its not of the original text, it would say For God is not of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    hence the saints are of peace, certainly not the authors of peace, note the "as in", but still with the "author of" in the verse we can see by reading the chapter this verse it is intended to mean the Truth of God isn't of, or found in confusion.

    so again, how does something exist that God didn't make?

    in the very first verses:

    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


    therefore though heaven and earth existed it was:

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

    so He made without form void and darkness, though as said in verse two the earth did exist.

    and confusion meaning:

    Discomfiture, overthrow, ruin, destruction, perdition.
    Mental discomfiture, putting to shame.
    Overthrow or discomfiture in argument; confutation
    Mental perturbation or agitation such as prevents the full command of the faculties; embarrassment, perplexity, fluttered condition.

    just for the record:

    chaos is:

    1. A gaping void, yawning gulf, chasm, or abyss: (chiefly from the Vulgate rendering of Luke xvi. 26). Obs. (In Greek spec. ‘the nether abyss, infinite darkness’, a use also often glanced at by English writers.)
    The ‘formless void’ of primordial matter, the ‘great deep’ or ‘abyss’ out of which the cosmos or order of the universe was evolved. A state resembling that of primitive chaos; utter confusion and disorder.

    nothing exists that God didn't make, and you're correct, He doesn't make mistakes. so what is good, and what is evil? and who makes it so? you? the devil? or the Almighty?
     
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    some use this as a reasoning to interpret "became" there, at the first "was;"
    i kinda lean that way myself, mostly bc there was a face of the deep, and the waters had a surface, etc

    Genesis 1:2 Lexicon: The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
     
  18. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    God didn't make hate. And He is not the author of senseless polemics.
    Scripture tells us to look to the Church for clarification of verses that are difficult to understand. 2 Peter 3:15-16. Private interpretation just makes a mess of everything.
    “Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.”

    – G.K. Chesterton
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Let me put it to you this way:
    Did God invent the airplane - or was it the Wright brothers?
    Did God invent the telephone - or was it Alexander Graham Bell?
    God gave them the MEANS to invent these things.

    Did God create spaghetti?
    Did God create pornography?
    Did God create the internet?
    Did God create the NFL?

    God didn't create evil.
    He endowed us with the MEANS to achieve evil - just like ALL of the above . . .
     
  20. Triumph1300

    Triumph1300 Well-Known Member

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    No answer about WHAT?
    The difference between Roman Catholics and Catholics?

    Roman Catholics consider the Pope to be their spiritual leader; he is called by the Roman "Christians"
    as the Vicar of Christ.

    Catholics do not believe in any papal authority.
    Catholics or Greek Orthodox do not recognize some of the books included in the Roman Catholic Bible.

    Fly at it!
     
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