The Inquisitions

[tabletalk]

"As recorded in Scripture" makes scripture alone the sole rule of faith, which is nowhere found in scripture. The BIBLICAL and HISTORICAL rule of faith is Scripture, Tradition and Teaching Authority, all working in harmony and one is not over the other. To say we have scripture to begin with without Tradition and Teaching Authority is plain denial of the facts. That is another discussion.

""Catholic" is not the name of a denomination. No one can pin the tail on the Church and say, "that's the Catholic Church" because "Catholic" is one of four divine characteristics that all Christians share in varying degrees. Some have more of one than others: One, Holy, Catholic or Universal, and Apostolic.

"Catholic" is strongly inferred in scripture.
CATHOLIC comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.

It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is neccessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

It is inferred in Matthew 28:19-20,
"Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world."
That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.
CATHOLIC comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus. (not to be confused with the falsehoods of Universalism)

Rom. 1:8….and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)”

Acts 9:31 "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied."

There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis" But it was after Ignatius that the term Catholic Church became used more and more to designate the true church.

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8 and Acts 9.
St. Ignatius, 3rd bishop of Antioch, trained by St. John the Apostle, oldest known usage of "Catholic" outside the Bible, writes:
"Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106 A.D., full context here
Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing. He is describing a divine quality, not a denomination.

Written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155AD;
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254AD

"Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.

Final note: Sources on the Inquisition dated before 1960 are obsolete and misleading, and are still being used by hostile anti-Catholics.

One of the sources for this thread is: Henry Charles Lea, The History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages.
Is it also 'obsolete and misleading' ?

 

[epostle1]

Can you tell me Who changed the Sabbath, from what God had instituted with the Hebrew's, which are depicted in the 10 Commandments, into Sunday as the Day of Worship to the God of Our Savior, And why. Most Importantly from Scripture, and then also Historically!

I usually avoid discussion with sabbatrarian cultists because they refuse to read. Worse, they have their own history.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 – this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 – Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 – Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 – we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 – regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 – when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 – John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

I can fulfill my Sunday obligation by participating at Mass on Saturday, so you make a lot of noise over man made laws and Jewish scruples.

On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.”
Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.”
Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

“The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.”
Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

“In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered “friends of God.” For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised–yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath–God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God.”
Tertullian, An answer to the Jews, 2 (A.D. 203).

“The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation: because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.”
Teaching of the Apostles, 2 (A.D. 225).

“Hence it is not possible that the rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh of our God; on the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of His own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of His death, and hence also of His resurrection.”
Origen, Commentary on John, 2:27 (A.D. 229).

“On the seventh day He rested from all His works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews, which Christ Himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that ‘His soul hateth;’ which Sabbath He in His body abolished.”
Victorinus, On the Creation of the World (A.D. 300).

 

[bbyrd009]

God will not forgive them

ha you mean you will not forgive them i guess, doubt you really mean to speak for God here, and i'm not interested in digging up your contradictions, which i just now read, wadr.

 

[Marymog]

Please go after those Anglicans, Lutherans, Puritans and whatever Church burned heretics. I think the Catholic Church started it, though.

Serious Bob

Hi Serious Bob,

Thank you for your permission to talk about facts.

In your OP you stated that there were 3 "phases" of the Inquisition. Since your statement is not historically accurate and you (accidently?) left out the Protestant Inquisition I assumed you didn't know your Christian History!!

Yes, the Catholic Church started the inquisitions since there was no other Church for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. Therefor only The Catholic Church could have conducted Inquisitions to prevent heretical teachings....which is what an inquisition is supposed to be about.
All the inquisitions had some bad things happen in them done by some bad people. None of it condoned by God.

Now, since Protestantism began, there are no longer heretical teachings....Hoooray!!! No need for anymore inquisitions.....Hoooray!!! Everyone and anyone can read the bible, decide what it means to them, start a church and teach what THEY believe: abortion is ok, same sex marriage is ok, etc. etc. OR just sit in their basement and read scripture while drinking a cup of tea. Never go to church....Hoooray.

Why is your focus only on the Catholic Inquisitions???

Curious Mary

 

[H. Richard]

If your faith is in the religious doctrines that have been put forth by man then your faith is in man. Any religion that does not teach the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross has been founded on what mankind does for God and does not reflect on what Jesus, God did for mankind on the cross.

IMO the RCC has Jesus as a baby and as being on a cross but never about the fact that Jesus' shed blood has already atoned (paid) for the sins of the whole world. Faith in His work on the cross is the only way to heaven under God's grace. But religious people love their religions more that what Jesus did for them on the cross. How do I see that? Because their religions are all they talk about.

 

[Helen]

If your faith is in the religious doctrines that have been put forth by man then your faith is in man. Any religion that does not teach the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross has been founded on what mankind does for God and does not reflect on what Jesus, God did for mankind on the cross.

IMO the RCC has Jesus as a baby and as being on a cross but never about the fact that Jesus' shed blood has already atoned (paid) for the sins of the whole world. Faith in His work on the cross is the only way to heaven under God's grace. But religious people love their religions more that what Jesus did for them on the cross. How do I see that? Because their religions are all they talk about.

Excellent...well put!
Your last line is a real kicker..
So much of what we believe is discussed, but not much about in Who we believe.

 

[epostle1]

If your faith is in the religious doctrines that have been put forth by man then your faith is in man. Any religion that does not teach the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross has been founded on what mankind does for God and does not reflect on what Jesus, God did for mankind on the cross.

IMO the RCC has Jesus as a baby and as being on a cross but never about the fact that Jesus' shed blood has already atoned (paid) for the sins of the whole world.

That is a lie.

Faith in His work on the cross is the only way to heaven under God's grace. But religious people love their religions more that what Jesus did for them on the cross. How do I see that? Because their religions are all they talk about.

If you would stop misrepresenting us so much we would have so much more to talk about about.
Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 – Jesus said, “if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 – Jesus said, “whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.

John 7:39 – Jesus was first glorified on the cross, not just the resurrection. This text refers to John 19:34, when Jesus was pierced on the cross by the soldier’s lance.

John 12:24 – unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone and bears no fruit. Jesus is teaching that suffering and death are part of every human life, and it is only through suffering and death that we obtain the glory of resurrection.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.
(some Protestant churches have replaced the steeple cross with weather vanes)

1 Cor. 2:2 – Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.

2 Cor. 4:11 – while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake so that His life may be manifested in our flesh. This proves the Catholic position that our sufferings on earth are united with Jesus in order to bring about Jesus’ life in us.

2 Cor. 12:9-10 – Jesus’ grace is sufficient, for His power is made perfect in weakness. If we are weak, we are strong in Christ. Our self-sufficiency decreases, so Christ in us can increase.

Eph. 3:13 – Do not to lose heart over my sufferings for your glory. Our suffering also benefits others in the mystical body of Christ.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering.

Phil. 3:10 – Paul desires to share in Christ’s sufferings in order to obtain the resurrection. Paul recognizes the efficacy of suffering as a means of obtaining holiness which leads to resurrection and eternal life. There is no Easter Sunday without Good Friday.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body. This proves the Catholic position regarding the efficacy of suffering. Is there something lacking in Christ’s sufferings? Of course not. But because Jesus loves us so much, He allows us to participate in His redemptive suffering by leaving room in His mystical body for our own suffering. Our suffering, united with our Lord’s suffering, furthers the work of His redemption.

2 Thess. 1:5 – we may be made worthy of the kingdom of God for which we are suffering. This is because suffering causes us to turn to God and purifies us from sin.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ. Sufferings atone for the temporal effects of our sin.

2 Tim. 3:12 – all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But this persecution unites us more closely to Jesus and repairs our relationship with God.

2 Tim. 4:5 – Paul instructs Timothy to endure suffering to fulfill his ministry. As evangelists, we suffer with Christ for the Gospel.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

Heb. 12:11 – this discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

James 4:8-10 – we must purify our hearts and grieve, mourn and wail, changing our laughter into morning and joy to gloom.

1 Peter 1:6 – Peter warns us that we may have to suffer various trials. Peter does not want us to be discouraged by this reality, but understand that such suffering purifies us and prepares us for union with God.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:1-2 – Peter says whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin to live not by the flesh but by the will of God. Our suffering furthers our growth in holiness which is the aim of Catholic life.

1 Peter 4:13 – Peter says to rejoice in Christ’s sufferings in order to rejoice and be glad when Christ’s glory is revealed. Those who suffer with faith in Christ will rejoice in His glory.

1 Peter 4:16 – if we suffer as Christians, we should not be ashamed but glorify God.

1 Peter 5:10 – after we have suffered, the God of all grace will restore, establish and strengthen us. God promises us that our suffering will ultimately be followed by glory.

Rev. 11:3 – Jesus gives power to His witnesses clothed in sackcloth. By virtue of our priesthood, we suffer to repair our relationship with God for sins that He has already forgiven us. As priests, we atone for the temporal punishments due to our sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

ha you mean you will not forgive them i guess, doubt you really mean to speak for God here, and i'm not interested in digging up your contradictions, which i just now read, wadr.

Contradiction???? show me your shovelll

 

[bbyrd009]

Contradiction???? show me your shovelll

nah, it's pointless, after the point is made, mjr, i'm not trying to change a made-up mind here.
i don't disagree with your premise anyway, i don't think
pride after a received revelation is hard to overcome i guess.
the other thread should make the point again anyway

so, what i'll do instead--bc i really do hope you find Jesus someday, ok--
is tell you about a Revelation i got with a flipper (house) we got recently;
see, the wiring was bad around the fuse box, but somehow not bad enough to make it into the assessment.
so iow we could insure the house, even as is, after doing the plumbing and inspection noted in the assessment,
and then we could just overload the elec panel til the house burned down,
and collect a quick 6 figures.

did the revelation come from God?

 

[epostle1]

One of the sources for this thread is: Henry Charles Lea, The History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages.
Is it also 'obsolete and misleading' ?

Yes. It was published in 1888. Since then archives have been opened giving scholars a whole new perspective because they were not available until the 1960's. Still, the information we have has not yet filtered down to the general public, and the voice that screams the loudest gets heard. The blame shifting hasn't stopped.

 

[Marymog]

If your faith is in the religious doctrines that have been put forth by man then your faith is in man. Any religion that does not teach the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross has been founded on what mankind does for God and does not reflect on what Jesus, God did for mankind on the cross.

IMO the RCC has Jesus as a baby and as being on a cross but never about the fact that Jesus' shed blood has already atoned (paid) for the sins of the whole world. Faith in His work on the cross is the only way to heaven under God's grace. But religious people love their religions more that what Jesus did for them on the cross. How do I see that? Because their religions are all they talk about.

Sounds like you, a man, has just put forth your own doctrine in your post.

Why is your doctrine right and the RCC or any other church doctrine wrong?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Jesus never instructed his followers to persecute others in the way that became typical of the Inquisition. The ones who must bear the full responsibility for foisting that idea on the flock are the religious leaders who were far more familiar with the scriptures than the common people. That is why many consider such a period as the great falling away from Christiaity or the apostasy that was foretold.

Jesus never instructed his followers to kill, steal, commit adultery etc. etc. but they do. When we sin the responsibility lays on the person, not the church.

The Church didn't commit apostasy during the inquisitions. Men committed sins. The Church is a rock and the gates of hell did not prevail against it during the inquisitions.

Mary

 

[mjrhealth]

nah, it's pointless, after the point is made, mjr, i'm not trying to change a made-up mind here.
i don't disagree with your premise anyway, i don't think
pride after a received revelation is hard to overcome i guess.
the other thread should make the point again anyway

so, what i'll do instead--bc i really do hope you find Jesus someday, ok--
is tell you about a Revelation i got with a flipper (house) we got recently;
see, the wiring was bad around the fuse box, but somehow not bad enough to make it into the assessment.
so iow we could insure the house, even as is, after doing the plumbing and inspection noted in the assessment,
and then we could just overload the elec panel til the house burned down,
and collect a quick 6 figures.

did the revelation come from God?

REaly should stop making a mockery of teh things of God, its not a big comedy festival..

 

[bbyrd009]

REaly should stop making a mockery of teh things of God, its not a big comedy festival..

so is that a yes or a no mjr, wasn't asking for your judgement there wadr

 

[mjrhealth]

so is that a yes or a no mjr, wasn't asking for your judgement there wadr

are we talking about the things of God or teh things of this world ???? are we talking spiritual truths or a busted fuse. Not one and the same.

 

[bbyrd009]

are we talking about the things of God or teh things of this world ???? are we talking spiritual truths or a busted fuse. Not one and the same.

did the revelation come from God?

it's not a puzzle mjr

 

[mjrhealth]

it's not a puzzle mjr

Oh yes it is, you came to a conclusion, was it God that gave you that, I would not know, but I have spent many days pondering problems than one moment when I am not thinking on it the answer would come, was it just me I do now know, but as I said you cant get revelation but from God, we are talking about spiritual things not worldly things. Every body wants to say " look at me God i am so smart i figured it out all by myself", no one ever has.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh yes it is

only when you are done with it, wadr.
The Q was a very simple one having to do with revelation, mjr
regardless of whether you like the implications or not

 

[mjrhealth]

The Q was a very simple one having to do with revelation, mjr
regardless of whether you like the implications or not

you are mixing the world with God, are we not speaking of spiritual things not worldy things. It may be a revelation but is not necessarily form God on that account, dont mix the two together, you cannot understand teh "spiritual" things of God without revelation from Him, whether you like it or not, You can study teh bible or your life and not know God, and many do.

 

[Wormwood]

Can you tell me Who changed the Sabbath, from what God had instituted with the Hebrew's, which are depicted in the 10 Commandments, into Sunday as the Day of Worship to the God of Our Savior, And why. Most Importantly from Scripture, and then also Historically!

Do you feel we should observe the OT Law as a means of maintaining a proper relationship with God?