The Inquisitions

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aspen

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Protestant: ‘The Catholic Church is not Christian!’
Catholic: ‘protestantism came from the Catholic Church.....’

P: ‘Wrong! P are the real Christian Church rooted in the early church!’
C: yet, every time bad behavior is pointed out in your reformers, the response is ‘well, they were just too Catholic!’

Uh.....yeah, got it
 
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Triumph1300

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Pope Francis on Nov. 3, 2016 during a meeting with a Buddhist Monk at the Vatican:

“We are calling to a common enterprise.”
The meeting ended with a call for Buddhists and Catholics to work together on nearly a dozen areas.
 
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epostle1

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There have actually been several different inquisitions. The first was established in 1184 in southern France as a response to the Catharist heresy. This was known as the Medieval Inquisition, and it was phased out as Catharism disappeared.

Quite separate was the Roman Inquisition, begun in 1542. It was the least active and most benign of the three variations.

Separate again was the infamous Spanish Inquisition, started in 1478, a state institution used to identify conversos—Jews and Moors (Muslims) who pretended to convert to Christianity for purposes of political or social advantage and secretly practiced their former religion. More importantly, its job was also to clear the good names of many people who were falsely accused of being heretics. It was the Spanish Inquisition that, at least in the popular imagination, had the worst record of fulfilling these duties.

The various inquisitions stretched through the better part of a millennia, and can collectively be called "the Inquisition."

The Main Sources

Fundamentalists writing about the Inquisition rely on books by Henry C. Lea (1825–1909) and G. G. Coulton (1858–1947). Each man got most of the facts right, and each made progress in basic research, so proper credit should not be denied them. The problem is that they did not weigh facts well, because they harbored fierce animosity toward the Church—animosity that had little to do with the Inquisition itself.

The contrary problem has not been unknown. A few Catholic writers, particularly those less interested in digging for truth than in diffusing a criticism of the Church, have glossed over incontrovertible facts and tried to whitewash the Inquisition. This is as much a disservice to the truth as an exaggeration of the Inquisition’s bad points. These well-intentioned, but misguided, apologists are, in one respect, much like Lea, Coulton, and contemporary Fundamentalist writers. They fear, while the others hope, that the facts about the Inquisition might prove the illegitimacy of the Catholic Church.

Don’t Fear the Facts

But the facts fail to do that. The Church has nothing to fear from the truth. No account of foolishness, misguided zeal, or cruelty by Catholics can undo the divine foundation of the Church, though, admittedly, these things are stumbling blocks to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

What must be grasped is that the Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).

Fundamentalists suffer from the mistaken notion that the Church includes only the elect. For them, sinners are outside the doors. Locate sinners, and you locate another place where the Church is not.
Thinking that Fundamentalists might have a point in their attacks on the Inquisition, Catholics tend to be defensive. This is the wrong attitude; rather, we should learn what really happened, understand events in light of the times, and then explain to anti-Catholics why the sorry tale does not prove what they think it proves.

Phony Statistics

Many Fundamentalists believe, for instance, that more people died under the Inquisition than in any war or plague; but in this they rely on phony "statistics" generated by one-upmanship among anti-Catholics, each of whom, it seems, tries to come up with the largest number of casualties.

But trying to straighten out such historical confusions can take one only so far. As Ronald Knox put it, we should be cautious, "lest we should wander interminably in a wilderness of comparative atrocity statistics." In fact, no one knows exactly how many people perished through the various Inquisitions. We can determine for certain, though, one thing about numbers given by Fundamentalists: They are far too large. One book popular with Fundamentalists claims that 95 million people died under the Inquisition.
The figure is so grotesquely off that one immediately doubts the writer’s sanity, or at least his grasp of demographics. Not until modern times did the population of those countries where the Inquisitions existed approach 95 million.

Inquisitions did not exist in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, or England, being confined mainly to southern France, Italy, Spain, and a few parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The Inquisition could not have killed that many people because those parts of Europe did not have that many people to kill!

Furthermore, the plague, which killed a third of Europe’s population, is credited by historians with major changes in the social structure. The Inquisition is credited with few—precisely because the number of its victims was comparitively small. In fact, recent studies indicate that at most there were only a few thousand capital sentences carried out for heresy in Spain, and these were over the course of several centuries.

What’s the Point?

Fundamentalist writers claim the existence of the Inquisition proves the Catholic Church could not be the Church founded by our Lord. They use the Inquisition as a good—perhaps their best—bad example. They think this shows that the Catholic Church is illegitimate. At first blush it might seem so, but there is only so much mileage in a ploy like that; most people see at once that the argument is weak. One reason Fundamentalists talk about the Inquisition is that they take it as a personal attack, imagining it was established to eliminate (yes, you guessed it) the Fundamentalists themselves.
Ultimately, it may be a waste of time arguing about statistics. Instead, ask Fundamentalists just what they think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates. They would not bring it up in the first place unless they thought it proves something about the Catholic Church. And what is that something? That Catholics are sinners? Guilty as charged. That at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment? Ditto. That otherwise good Catholics, afire with zeal, sometimes lose their balance? All true, but such charges could be made even if the Inquisition had never existed and perhaps could be made of some Fundamentalists.
read more here
 

epostle1

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Pope Francis on Nov. 3, 2016 during a meeting with a Buddhist Monk at the Vatican:

“We are calling to a common enterprise.”
The meeting ended with a call for Buddhists and Catholics to work together on nearly a dozen areas.
What's so wrong with promotion of peacemaking? Would you prefer violence and bloodshed? Here is the context that anti-Catholics avoid: Vatican calls on Catholics and Buddhists to work together to promote nonviolence. And I don't even like NCR News. We are called to a common enterprise, it doesn't mean we are called to embrace Buddhism. We can work with them, you just condemn them all to hell. Grow a brain cell.
Pope Francis has put a special emphasis on disarmament, peacemaking, and Jesus’ teachings of nonviolence during his papacy. Which of those 3 do you hate the most? Given your vile hatred for anything Catholic, it wouldn't surprise me if you hated all three.
In his World Day of Peace message he called on Christians to emulate Jesus way of acting nonviolently. In a March letter to the U.N. during talks on eliminating nuclear weapons, the pope said it is time for the international community to “go beyond” nuclear deterrence.

Is that evil too, Triumph?

Now I suppose I have to explain, in detail, how a one world religion led by the pope is impossible.

You and brakelite need to tell your doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that might help you.
 
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Helen

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Protestant: ‘The Catholic Church is not Christian!’
Catholic: ‘protestantism came from the Catholic Church.....’

P: ‘Wrong! P are the real Christian Church rooted in the early church!’
C: yet, every time bad behavior is pointed out in your reformers, the response is ‘well, they were just too Catholic!’

Uh.....yeah, got it

Hahaha! Yep...one has to laugh. :)
The last laugh will be God's.
I think He just sits back and watches the little siblings quarrel.
And round and around it goes!! lol

And...some wonder why people don't like the term "Christian" :D
 
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brakelite

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Protestant: ‘The Catholic Church is not Christian!’
Catholic: ‘protestantism came from the Catholic Church.....’

P: ‘Wrong! P are the real Christian Church rooted in the early church!’
C: yet, every time bad behavior is pointed out in your reformers, the response is ‘well, they were just too Catholic!’

Uh.....yeah, got it
Protestant: "The Catholic Church is in an apostate state although within her communion are many genuine Christians".
Catholic: "But Protestants are rebels from the truth".
Protestant: "Wrong. They wanted to correct the errors, but no-one listened and were cast out and condemned as liars".
Catholic: "yet every time bad behavior is pointed out in the reformers, the response is 'they were too Catholic' "
Protestant: "Yes. It is the same response when a new Christian struggles with his old habits. 'They haven't yet been fully crucified in Christ, they are yet living in the flesh,they will grow'."

Protestantism is still growing...no-one, as individuals, or as part of a movement or church, is fully matured. We are still ripening...when the fruit is ripe, then comes the harvest. Some Protestants have given up however, which is sad. They are packing their bags and returning to Mother to embrace the same errors and mistakes so many spilt blood protesting. Sad.
 
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brakelite

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No, the Jesuits didn’t kill Abraham Lincoln. Brakelite never gives a shred of scholarly evidence for his Seventh Day Adventist rants. (or similar dubious sources)
I read that article. Basically all it said was....no they didn't. That's it? The articles which I have read, oh and a few books as well, written by people a lot closer to the action and the times in which we live today, connected the dots. Gathered the evidence. Put two and two together and came up with the same conclusion. And that article, despite its pretensions to glory, did not bother to pin-point one specific piece of evidence in order to refute the many charges being made against the Jesuits. And yes, there are connections between the Titanic and the Catholic church, if you are willing to dig a little deeper than your average Catholic apologist. It is about the motivations of an experienced ship captain who sailed his boat full speed through an ice berg field despite warnings against such from other ships. It is about the identities of those who perished and their plans in the financial world. Its about the motives and plans of the Rothschilds in their lust for global power and control and the establishment of central banks, particularly in context of the then ongoing debate and controversy in the establishment of the Federal Reserve and the rights to print money. The assassinations of a variety of American presidents is linked to that also, including Kennedy. Again, connect the dots. Nothing is as it seems.

But you are correct. I never give a shred of scholarly evidence. I am not a scholar, true, but I read. I have been around a while, and I love history. I cannot copy/paste every book I've read, I cannot produce the evidence those historians used yet referenced in appendices and footnotes. They were reliable scholars. I do not take my learning from Chick tracts or letter box pamphlets. I have cited several books I have read, I suggest instead of blindly objecting to everything I say, check the evidence for yourself. To demand I produce all the evidence is simply a mind game you are playing at the expense of honest investigation.
 

aspen

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Protestant: "The Catholic Church is in an apostate state although within her communion are many genuine Christians".
Catholic: "But Protestants are rebels from the truth".
Protestant: "Wrong. They wanted to correct the errors, but no-one listened and were cast out and condemned as liars".
Catholic: "yet every time bad behavior is pointed out in the reformers, the response is 'they were too Catholic' "
Protestant: "Yes. It is the same response when a new Christian struggles with his old habits. 'They haven't yet been fully crucified in Christ, they are yet living in the flesh,they will grow'."

Protestantism is still growing...no-one, as individuals, or as part of a movement or church, is fully matured. We are still ripening...when the fruit is ripe, then comes the harvest. Some Protestants have given up however, which is sad. They are packing their bags and returning to Mother to embrace the same errors and mistakes so many spilt blood protesting. Sad.

So when are you guys going to be grown up enough to accept responsibility? Protestants who havent been to Mass ask ‘why dont Catholics read from the Bible’. When I go to Protestant Churches I wonder when they are going to stop using Catholicism as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick.

Quakers aeem to be the only church I’ve been to that do not have a Catholic inferiority complex
 
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brakelite

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So when are you guys going to be grown up enough to accept responsibility? Protestants who havent been to Mass ask ‘why dont Catholics read from the Bible’. When I go to Protestant Churches I wonder when they are going to stop using Catholicism as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick.

Quakers aeem to be the only church I’ve been to that do not have a Catholic inferiority complex
I accepted responsibility when I left Catholicism 40 years ago. I have been to mass. I served as an altar boy and knew the entire ritual in Latin. Yes, when giving a sermon the priest used a Bible. But the Bible was NEVER recommended as a personal devotional tool, nor recommended as a source for doctrine or belief. That was the Catechism. I only once saw a real Bible (Missals don't count) from the time I was confirmed and to the time I bought my own when I was 24 years old. That once was on my grandmother's bookshelf...she was Anglican.
I agree with you about Protestant churches still following Catholicism and yet pretending they are fully independent. Protestants still believe in and teach the two foundational pillars upon which the whole raft of the apostasy is built. The trinity and Sunday sacredness.
 
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APAK

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I accepted responsibility when I left Catholicism 40 years ago. I have been to mass. I served as an altar boy and knew the entire ritual in Latin. Yes, when giving a sermon the priest used a Bible. But the Bible was NEVER recommended as a personal devotional tool, nor recommended as a source for doctrine or belief. That was the Catechism. I only once saw a real Bible (Missals don't count) from the time I was confirmed and to the time I bought my own when I was 24 years old. That once was on my grandmother's bookshelf...she was Anglican.
I agree with you about Protestant churches still following Catholicism and yet pretending they are fully independent. Protestants still believe in and teach the two foundational pillars upon which the whole raft of the apostasy is built. The trinity and Sunday sacredness.
brakelite:
You can add to this list, their creeds as well....

I think we are months apart in age....I guess I'm saying then you are much wiser at you age...hehehe...

Bless you,

APAK
 

tabletalk

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So when are you guys going to be grown up enough to accept responsibility? Protestants who havent been to Mass ask ‘why dont Catholics read from the Bible’. When I go to Protestant Churches I wonder when they are going to stop using Catholicism as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick.

Quakers aeem to be the only church I’ve been to that do not have a Catholic inferiority complex


This Protestant uses the Catholic Church 'as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick' in this way: The Devil's advocate.
 

mjrhealth

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So when are you guys going to be grown up enough to accept responsibility? Protestants who havent been to Mass ask ‘why dont Catholics read from the Bible’. When I go to Protestant Churches I wonder when they are going to stop using Catholicism as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick.

Quakers aeem to be the only church I’ve been to that do not have a Catholic inferiority complex
Was born and raised a catholic 17 years did christians church for about 7 years, teh only truth I ever found was in Jesus, so ill stick with Him from now on. im a citizen of heaven not the catholic or protestant church. Who is your master, you can only serve one...
 
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brakelite

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brakelite:
You can add to this list, their creeds as well....

I think we are months apart in age....I guess I'm saying then you are much wiser at you age...hehehe...

Bless you,

APAK
Please don't mistake the ability to use grammar and language reasonably well as a sign of wisdom. Appreciate the compliment however. And yes, creeds are a scourge on the church, particularly when used as a test of fellowship, even worse when used as an excuse to persecute those who disagree with you.
 

aspen

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This Protestant uses the Catholic Church 'as a reference, cautionary tale, a measuring stick' in this way: The Devil's advocate.

How truly sad.

Isnt God your measuring stick?

Dualism is heresy btw
 

aspen

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Was born and raised a catholic 17 years did christians church for about 7 years, teh only truth I ever found was in Jesus, so ill stick with Him from now on. im a citizen of heaven not the catholic or protestant church. Who is your master, you can only serve one...

Yes, you are proud of doing it your way - we know
 

mjrhealth

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ya, i do get the same perception there, not that i can talk much
@aspen

IS it not written. I am the way the truth and the life says the Lord, no man will enter into heaven but by me.

Do either of you know a better way, than Jesus, Im all ears..
 

aspen

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@aspen

IS it not written. I am the way the truth and the life says the Lord, no man will enter into heaven but by me.

Do either of you know a better way, than Jesus, Im all ears..

Not based on your unrational idea that Christian Churches represent satan and your ego represents Jesus.
 
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