The Kingdom of God.... Is it within you?

[grafted branch]

Today is the day of salvation. No one knows what the next minute holds for them. Any one of us could drop dead without a moment's notice.

In Paul's Mars Hill address, one of the things he said was that we were born when and where we were so that we would seek God. So He knows what is right for us.

Much love!

I absolutely agree, none of us knows if we will be alive tomorrow. But if your view is correct then Gentiles have everything to gain by accepting Jesus today, their only alternative is to be not found in the book life and cast into the lake of fire.

According too your view the Jews on the other hand are different, if they are alive when Jesus returns and they wait to accept Him at that time, they have much more to gain than any Gentile or Jew that accepts Jesus prior to His coming. A Jews decision to accept Jesus could be based on their physical health and their perception of when Jesus will return. They may weigh these options before they make a decision, just as someone may weigh their options of which job they should take or who they should marry.

 

[marks]

According too your view the Jews on the other hand are different, if they are alive when Jesus returns and they wait to accept Him at that time, they have much more to gain than any Gentile or Jew that accepts Jesus prior to His coming. A Jews decision to accept Jesus could be based on their physical health and their perception of when Jesus will return. They may weigh these options before they make a decision, just as someone may weigh their options of which job they should take or who they should marry.

That's not really my thinking though. If they come to believe in Jesus, I don't think there's the option to not be reborn yet, so they they can have the opportunity to try to survive the great tribulation, and receive the kingdom when Jesus comes. My thinking is that those who come to faith in Jesus in the current time will be reborn now.

Much love!

 

[Davidpt]

A Jews decision to accept Jesus could be based on their physical health and their perception of when Jesus will return. They may weigh these options before they make a decision, just as someone may weigh their options of which job they should take or who they should marry.

If you are meaning unbelieving Jews here, the first mistake you are making is using the term 'return' in regards to them and their thinking on this. No unbelieving Jew thinks Jesus is returning. They don't even think He has come yet, let alone is returning. And not only that, they don't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah to begin with. The Messiah that they are waiting on hasn't even arrived yet and is not meaning Jesus, is their thinking on this.

 

[marks]

If you are meaning unbelieving Jews here, the first mistake you are making is using the term 'return' in regards to them and their thinking on this. No unbelieving Jew thinks Jesus is returning. They don't even think He has come yet, let alone is returning. And not only that, they don't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah to begin with. The Messiah that they are waiting on hasn't even arrived yet and is not meaning Jesus, is their thinking on this.

Personally, I think the beast will likely be received as their messiah, then when the abomination of desolation happens, those who are paying attention will realize their error, and will heed Jesus' warning to flee to the wilderness. I'm thinking that those in the wilderness (Petra?) will have Elijah there with them preparing them to receive the Lord, to say, Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the LORD. At which time, the bride will have made herself ready.

Much love!

 

[grafted branch]

Could you tell me what you understand "the fullness of Gentiles" to mean?

Much love!

It’s my understanding that the times of the Jews were depicted by who was king. Time was stated for example as the fifth year of king so and so. The times of the Jews ended when they went under the control of Babylon, that’s when the times of the Gentiles started. Time is then depicted by which Gentile kingdom is in power.

When the kingdom of God came, time was no longer depicted as which earthly Jewish king was reigning or which Gentile kingdom was ruling, there is only one King now and he’s going to reign forever.

The last act that the Gentiles were to perform was the sacking of Jerusalem, prophesied in Daniel 9:27, which happened in 70AD. This act happened after the kingdom of God came which is why it’s stated as the fullness of the Gentiles, the Gentiles didn’t fully complete all that they were prophesied to do when Romans was written. They were still waiting for that fullness to happen. Luke 21:24 also shows us 70AD is when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled.

 

[grafted branch]

If you are meaning unbelieving Jews here, the first mistake you are making is using the term 'return' in regards to them and their thinking on this. No unbelieving Jew thinks Jesus is returning. They don't even think He has come yet, let alone is returning. And not only that, they don't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah to begin with. The Messiah that they are waiting on hasn't even arrived yet and is not meaning Jesus, is their thinking on this.

Right, and if you tell them that if they did accept Jesus right now as their Messiah they will loose out on the old covenant promises, you are never going to convince them. They will weigh the option you are telling them about and reject Jesus.

If someone was to explain that the old covenant has vanished and will never return you might have a chance of convincing them, but forget it if you tell them they’ll loose out on the old covenant promises.

 

[marks]

The last act that the Gentiles were to perform was the sacking of Jerusalem, prophesied in Daniel 9:27, which happened in 70AD. This act happened after the kingdom of God came which is why it’s stated as the fullness of the Gentiles, the Gentiles didn’t fully complete all that they were prophesied to do when Romans was written.

I appreciate your explanation! So then, where it's written, "the fulness of the gentiles", you associate it with their prophesied acts rather then the number of the gentiles themselves?

As I look through the places where this word is used, well, the word itself, pleroma, is about being full, looking at the places it's used, what I'm seeing is referring to "the full number", or "the full measure", like that. "Until the full measure of the gentiles", rather than "the full measure of the works of the gentiles", or something like that.

Much love!

 

[grafted branch]

I appreciate your explanation! So then, where it's written, "the fulness of the gentiles", you associate it with their prophesied acts rather then the number of the gentiles themselves?

As I look through the places where this word is used, well, the word itself, pleroma, is about being full, looking at the places it's used, what I'm seeing is referring to "the full number", or "the full measure", like that. "Until the full measure of the gentiles", rather than "the full measure of the works of the gentiles", or something like that.

Much love!

I do think the fullness of the Gentiles is the full measure that they were prophesied to perform. The times of the Gentiles ends according to Luke 21:24 in 70AD so I don’t think the fullness of the Gentiles happens outside of the times of the Gentiles.

In Romans 11:25 Israel is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Jesus was revealed when they fled Jerusalem, when it was surrounded by armies. This is when the blindness in part was lifted.

 

[marks]

The times of the Gentiles ends according to Luke 21:24 in 70AD so I don’t think the fullness of the Gentiles happens outside of the times of the Gentiles.

Luke 21:23-27 KJV
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

A different form of the same word, pleroo, is used here also, but there are two different expressions we are looking at. One, here, is "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled/filled up", then in Romans, "until the filling up of the Gentiles". So on the one hand, the times, on the other, the Gentiles themselves.

I'm reading a couple of things here that have to happen before the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Jerusalem no longer being trodden down under the Gentiles, and the Israelites no longer led captive into all nations.

According to Ezekiel and Joel among others, Israel's captivity in the nations won't be completely undone until Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[grafted branch]

I'm reading a couple of things here that have to happen before the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Jerusalem no longer being trodden down under the Gentiles, and the Israelites no longer led captive into all nations.

According to Ezekiel and Joel among others, Israel's captivity in the nations won't be completely undone until Jesus returns.

Yes, the “not all Israel which are of Israel” fell by the edge of the sword and were led away captive into all the nations. True Israel fled into the mountains and were not part of the non-Israel event that some call the diaspora.

Jerusalem was trodden down until it was completely destroyed, the Gentiles didn’t keep trodding after the Revelation 11:2 period of 42 months.

 

[quietthinker]

The Kingdom of God.... Is it within you?​

Ones attitude surely is as is how one sees. These largely affect the nature of the relationships in our circle of influence.
This is exemplified in Luke 6:38 'Give and it will be given to you........'

 

[Timtofly]

I said that if they were dispossessed of their physical land, they no longer qualified as a physical nation.

The Church is not a physical nation. It is a spiritual nation. Physical land is irrelevant to a spiritual nation.

No, the physical land of the church is Paradise. We are ambassadors on the earth. We are not a nation on the earth. Israel is a nation on the earth. Israel does not have to be spiritual to be a physical nation.

Israel does have a physical nation. Why do you keep denying that point?

Prior to 720 BC, Israel was to be both spiritual, set apart to God, and a physical nation, because earth was their only land possession. They did not have to stop being spiritual as ambassadors of God. After the Cross, Israel did have a country to represent. The one they had looked for by faith, for thousands of years.

Now Israel has part of their earthly land restored. But there will not be peace until their King returns and establishes rule on the earth. Land is most definitely relative to any nation on the earth, spiritual or not. Any nation could have been spiritual. Being spiritual is not the cause of a nation's downfall.

 

[Timtofly]

Satan is accusing the brethren of their sins, I think we all would agree on this. Once the sins were paid for there are no longer any legitimate accusations that can be made against the brethren.

Let’s look at the idea that Satan is currently in heaven accusing the brethren day and night. 1 Peter 5:8 says Satan walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Satan isn’t omnipresent so he can’t be both in heaven and on earth, and since you have him still in heaven, not cast out yet, we have to assume Satan is walking around in heaven as a roaring lion.
In fact you should be in agreement with the Amill view, you think he’s in heaven and Amill think he’s in the pit. Either way Satan isn’t currently on earth deceiving the nations.

Currently it’s estimated that there are over 2.3 billion Christians in the world and there are 86,400 seconds in a 24 hour day. If each Christian commits only one sin per day then 2,300,000,000 sins divided by 86,400 seconds equals 26,620 accusations per second that Satan has to make. I’m personally guilty of more than just one sin per day, I have wrong thoughts, not patient enough, not as kind as I could’ve been, and so on. Satan surely doesn’t have enough time to be deceiving the nations if he’s in heaven making accusations, right?
Would you agree that the nations are not currently being deceived by Satan?

First you say Satan is not accusing the brethren day and night, and then you say he is, and that is what keeps him bound.

Satan does both because he is not currently bound. How many nations flip flop daily from serving God, that Satan needs to deceive them over and over again?

What sin did Satan accuse Job of? The point is that Satan is not bound per Revelation 20. And sin has not been removed from the earth per Daniel 9:24.

 

[grafted branch]

First you say Satan is not accusing the brethren day and night, and then you say he is, and that is what keeps him bound.

What I should’ve said to make my point clearer was that Satan is accusing the brethren of their sins in Revelation 12, I didn’t mean to say that he is currently making accusations.

Satan isn’t omnipresent, he is either in heaven or he’s not. Making accusations takes time so unless you think Satan transcends time that’s another problem, as I said earlier, if he makes a single accusation for each Christian once per day that means he has to make 26,620 accusations per second.

Satan does both because he is not currently bound. How many nations flip flop daily from serving God, that Satan needs to deceive them over and over again?

If Satan isn’t currently bound from anything then why hasn’t he created a one world government by now? Is he benevolent and wants to give people a chance to become saved? Maybe Satan is lazy and just hasn’t gotten around to it yet.

What sin did Satan accuse Job of? The point is that Satan is not bound per Revelation 20. And sin has not been removed from the earth per Daniel 9:24.

Satan didn’t accuse Job of committing sin but accused God of putting a hedge around Job. Satan did however accuse Joshua who was wearing filthy clothes, then Joshua was told his sins were taken away and he was given clean garments.



Zechariah (NIV) 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”
Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” 5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.

 

[marks]

Jerusalem was trodden down until it was completely destroyed, the Gentiles didn’t keep trodding after the Revelation 11:2 period of 42 months.

OK, this gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Can I ask you a question about your thinking? Are you saying you yourself are under the new covenant but someone who is born a “Jew” (whatever that means) is under the old covenant?

The land was promised before the Sinai Covenant of the Law. Nullifying the OT Covenant did not take their land away. Disobedience took them away from their land, but it still remained, because that promise was not predicated on the Law.

Pretty sure historist are wrong, as well as Amil about the land being returned to a nation using the name Israel. No Gentiles nor the church was promised land on earth by God. Only Abraham through his offspring Jacob, who received the title Israel.


If Gentiles or the church want land to govern, they will have to fight and defend that right to own land.

And the point is not that Abraham or past generations are coming back to reclaim that land. Nor is the OT Covenant coming back. Jesus as King is the promised yet unfulfilled.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, I don’t agree with all that you’re saying, but I was initially thinking, if your view is correct, that a person who was a Jew would have to weigh out their options before accepting Jesus. To some Jews it may be better to not accept Jesus now and retain the old covenant promises, this would be especially true if they thought His coming was close.

You lost me at the “fullness of the Gentiles”, I think that already came in the first century. Why would a rapture be the fullness of the Gentiles? I thought the Daniel animal depicted Gentile kingdoms is what the fullness of the Gentiles is referring to.

I don't see either side of this argument as being correct. One cannot choose life after the Second Coming.

So saying a Jew, instead of wanting to live in Paradise, will gamble waiting to choose His King and live on the earth, is missing the point. No one chooses life after the Second Coming. Jesus Himself chooses who is in the Millennium Kingdom.


Think about the original 12. They could have said no, but no one was given the opportunity to choose Christ. They only were given the choice to reject Christ. Jesus chose the 12. Jesus did not wait around for people to come choose Him. You don't think that when they were given the Holy Spirit, they were changed and given the power to obey God? Up until the Cross, life was all about good works. Keeping the Law was works. Some today seem oblivious to how hard the transition was from works to faith. Even though many still exercised faith by their obedience to God, throughout the OT. Having faith was not the issue. Not relying on good works was the issue.

The church does not stand in judgment at the Second Coming. The church is not separated between believers and unbelievers. That is the wrong interpretation of Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Revelation 20.

The church is removed before Jesus arrives on the Mount of Olives. The church is not seperated as sheep from the goats. Israel on earth is seperate as sheep from the goats. The vast majority of Israel will be condemned to the LOF, as the goats. Only a remnant, one third, including the 144k will be restored. But it will be 100% restoration. They will no longer be in a body of death. They will be changed into life to live out the Day of the Lord. Daniel 9:24. All of Israel will be redeemed. Not some redeemed ruling over the rest, who are unredeemed.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't see either side of this argument as being correct. One cannot choose life after the Second Coming.

So saying a Jew, instead of wanting to live in Paradise, will gamble waiting to choose His King and live on the earth, is missing the point. No one chooses life after the Second Coming. Jesus Himself chooses who is in the Millennium Kingdom.


Think about the original 12. They could have said no, but no one was given the opportunity to choose Christ. They only were given the choice to reject Christ. Jesus chose the 12. Jesus did not wait around for people to come choose Him. You don't think that when they were given the Holy Spirit, they were changed and given the power to obey God? Up until the Cross, life was all about good works. Keeping the Law was works. Some today seem oblivious to how hard the transition was from works to faith. Even though many still exercised faith by their obedience to God, throughout the OT. Having faith was not the issue. Not relying on good works was the issue.

The church does not stand in judgment at the Second Coming. The church is not separated between believers and unbelievers. That is the wrong interpretation of Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Revelation 20.

The church is removed before Jesus arrives on the Mount of Olives. The church is not seperated as sheep from the goats. Israel on earth is seperate as sheep from the goats. The vast majority of Israel will be condemned to the LOF, as the goats. Only a remnant, one third, including the 144k will be restored. But it will be 100% restoration. They will no longer be in a body of death. They will be changed into life to live out the Day of the Lord. Daniel 9:24. All of Israel will be redeemed. Not some redeemed ruling over the rest, who are unredeemed.

I’m not sure what you’re saying, is it that currently people have the free will to choose Christ or not but after the second coming it switches to election? Or are you saying there is no free will at all? Or are you saying there’s some kind of hybrid model where God has to choose a person first then it’s up to that person to use their free will to choose or reject God’s choice?

 

[Timtofly]

It’s my understanding that the times of the Jews were depicted by who was king. Time was stated for example as the fifth year of king so and so. The times of the Jews ended when they went under the control of Babylon, that’s when the times of the Gentiles started. Time is then depicted by which Gentile kingdom is in power.

When the kingdom of God came, time was no longer depicted as which earthly Jewish king was reigning or which Gentile kingdom was ruling, there is only one King now and he’s going to reign forever.

The last act that the Gentiles were to perform was the sacking of Jerusalem, prophesied in Daniel 9:27, which happened in 70AD. This act happened after the kingdom of God came which is why it’s stated as the fullness of the Gentiles, the Gentiles didn’t fully complete all that they were prophesied to do when Romans was written. They were still waiting for that fullness to happen. Luke 21:24 also shows us 70AD is when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled.

This is not what the "fulness" was in context to what Paul was writing in the chapter this phrase is found.

Paul was talking about the Gentiles being grafted into the natural tree. Paul was not talking about the purpose the Gentiles were given in filling the earth with thousands of Gentiles.

The fullness of the Gentiles means how many are redeemed out of mankind's dead corruptible nature. The fulness of the Gentiles is how many become part of the church until the Second Coming. Romans 11:24-27

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

This is the fulness of the church as some specifically point out there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the church. It would be the fulness of Israel who accept Christ as well. But Paul contrast that after the Second Coming, is when Israel is reinstated. That is when Jesus takes away their sin. At least the sheep. The goats still end up in the LOF.

Fulness is a harvest term in this context. It relates to being grafted in as a wild branch.

 

[Timtofly]

What I should’ve said to make my point clearer was that Satan is accusing the brethren of their sins in Revelation 12, I didn’t mean to say that he is currently making accusations.

Satan isn’t omnipresent, he is either in heaven or he’s not. Making accusations takes time so unless you think Satan transcends time that’s another problem, as I said earlier, if he makes a single accusation for each Christian once per day that means he has to make 26,620 accusations per second.


If Satan isn’t currently bound from anything then why hasn’t he created a one world government by now? Is he benevolent and wants to give people a chance to become saved? Maybe Satan is lazy and just hasn’t gotten around to it yet.


Satan didn’t accuse Job of committing sin but accused God of putting a hedge around Job. Satan did however accuse Joshua who was wearing filthy clothes, then Joshua was told his sins were taken away and he was given clean garments.



Zechariah (NIV) 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”
Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” 5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.

Then it is based on your whole adding "what" to the point. Revelation 12 does not say about what, that is your argument. It also does not say every last one who is already put to sleep by Satan's deception. Think about Job. You seem to insinuate that if one is redeemed they cannot sin at all, or Satan will accuse them. Satan does not have to accuse those living in sin. Satan is not omnipresent, but certainly capable of going to the throne, to his abode in the pit, and wherever he feels on earth, at any moment. He does not have to wait for a transportation time table.