The Lake of Fire or Hell

[Hobie]

WHat? I didn't say that I am immortal of my own self.

So you say that body spirit and soul go to the grave and turn to dust until the judgement?
That's not biblical, back that up with scripture. You can't

Well you said 'I' do not die, and that is 'your' statement, not sure where you would go with that, maybe you could clarify it. But as for what scripture shows, the soul is simply inert no consciousness apart from the body, and the person who has to await for resurrection when Christ returns at the Second Coming. Lets look what we happens when we die in the Bible:

In Jeremiah 31:26 we see the word 'sleep' being used...
Jeremiah 31:26
Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
Also in Daniel 2:1 ..
Daniel 2:1
And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.

The word used here is 'shenah' corresponding to 8142, asleep (1), sleep (22), sleep* (1). now compare to Daniel 12:2

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Its different, the word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. yashen from 3462, chronic (1), fell asleep (1), remained long (1), sleep (10), sleeps (1), slept (5). the Bible uses this term when speaking of death and we find many text showing the dead have no thoughts or consciousness...
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.


And we also find what the 'spirit' is that is taken away

Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

In the book of Job we see..
Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

And also what is happening when we are dead..
Job 7:21
.And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psalm 30:9
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

So its clear they are not conscious, they are not having any thoughts or communicating with God. In the New Testament we see the words of Christ and much more...
Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Here David expected to have his 'soul' brought up at the resurrection as he prophesized on the resurrection of Christ...
Acts 2:31
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

And compare that the David is shown going down to the same death, but not resurrected..
Acts 13:37
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

These text clearly show the soul does not continue on after death or the dead float in a 'spirit' or a entity and dwell Gods presence. The focus is on resurrection at the Second Coming to eternal life for the believer and to destruction for the unbeliever. The only immortality the believer will have will be after the resurrection and the result of the redemption provided in Christ. The soul, is not immortal so hell means the destruction of the wicked, annihilation at the Lake of Fire.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The fact is that an eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as we find same expression is used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha.

You failed to look closely. He was not talking about the fire that fell on the cities, but the punishment that will fall on the people.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The geography did not commit fornication- but the people and it is the people who will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

Thank you my brother, lets look at those text as they have confused many christians. You have to grasp why this is used in giving the destruction of the wicked is said to be "everlasting" or "eternal." Some have assumed that the wicked will burn in hellfire for eternity, but does that sound like justice? No, even in our courts that would not be considered 'just' and God wouldnt do that.

No you are defining Gods justice by your own standard. that is wrong.

The idea of people being tormented eternally contradicts God’s promise of putting a complete end to pain. It’s in the Bible, Nahum 1:9, KJV. “What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.”....

The context and definition is that when God ultimately redeems people, it is the redeemed who will not be afflicted again.

also you rOT& examples show comparative terms or show them to be metaphors.

Yes the wicked shall be consumed off the earth. but it doesn't say how or when or in what fashion. That is spelled out elsewhere, especially in revelation:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

No comparative words, no metaphorical usage. Their torture lasts forever and they never have rest! Dead people cannot be tortured and are non existent so rest is a stupid word.

The bigger question is why do you place higher value on metaphorical usage instead of something written plain, simple and unambiguously?

 

[MA2444]

Well you said 'I' do not die, and that is 'your' statement, not sure where you would go with that, maybe you could clarify it. But as for what scripture shows, the soul is simply inert no consciousness apart from the body, and the person who has to await for resurrection when Christ returns at the Second Coming. Lets look what we happens when we die in the Bible:

That's because "I" identify with my spirit & soul more than I do my body. WHen my body dies, I do not die, I go to be with the Lord like scripture says. God is a God of the living and not of the dead. This body is like a tent I can be in the tent and not become the tent.

 

[Augustin56]

Keep in mind that the descriptions of hell are lacking, because they can only be described within the ability of what we see and know on earth. As Scripture says in 1 Cor 2:9, "But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” In other words, we humans, in this life, cannot even imagine the reality of heaven, and, by extension, hell.

 

[Jay Ross]

I notice you dont use scripture, just assume and give opinions... Not much to respond to from Gods Word...

It seems that you are blind to what people write. Was not scripture referenced in my post.

Is not Genesis 2:17 telling us that if we disobey God's statutes, then we have sinned and will die the second death at the time of the final judgement.

Is not Ezekiel 18 presenting what will happen if we sin and are not repentant? Does it not state that we will experience the second death when we stand in the GWTR and judged to be unrighteous and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

It seems that you too only make assumptions and express your opinions. The two scriptures that I referenced gave teaching on the second death in the Lake of Fire, but the tradition of men who had no understanding, like you, have turn this teaching into something else .

Your put down of what I had posted means that you gave no second thoughts to the passages that I referenced and preferred the traditional understandings of men.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Looks as if this was to be taking place on earth during people's natural lifetime, since Day and Night are still recurring for them in this scenario. This is not an after-life perpetual torment of the wicked, but an accompanying irritating result of their ongoing worship of the Sea Beast during their lifetime while still on earth. Otherwise, it would read "...they have no rest who had worshipped the beast and his image..."

 

[3 Resurrections]

Is not Genesis 2:17 telling us that if we disobey God's statutes, then we have sinned and will die the second death at the time of the final judgement.

No, the "second death" is never mentioned in Genesis. Only the one-time-only death requirement that Hebrews 9:27 spoke of. No one dies twice. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment".

The "second death" / aka, the "Lake of Fire" was the second time Death and Hell (the grave) came to plague the city of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, just like it did under the Babylonian invasion back in Isaiah 28:14-19. For Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians, the rulers of Jerusalem and the people were overwhelmed by these scourges of Death and Hell (the grave) visiting the city in its overthrow. The same conditions came to overwhelm Jerusalem a second time in its overthrow by the close of AD 70 when the city quite literally appeared to be a "Lake of Fire" as it was being burned down by God's "devouring fire".

 

[Hobie]

You failed to look closely. He was not talking about the fire that fell on the cities, but the punishment that will fall on the people.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The geography did not commit fornication- but the people and it is the people who will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

No you are defining Gods justice by your own standard. that is wrong.

The context and definition is that when God ultimately redeems people, it is the redeemed who will not be afflicted again.

also you rOT& examples show comparative terms or show them to be metaphors.

Yes the wicked shall be consumed off the earth. but it doesn't say how or when or in what fashion. That is spelled out elsewhere, especially in revelation:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

No comparative words, no metaphorical usage. Their torture lasts forever and they never have rest! Dead people cannot be tortured and are non existent so rest is a stupid word.

The bigger question is why do you place higher value on metaphorical usage instead of something written plain, simple and unambiguously?

Yes it does say how and where. If you have a Bible, look and you will see where it will be and its the same as Sodom and Gommorah with fire coming down and basically covering the earth in what is literally a 'lake of fire'.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

It is here when God rains fire down and the lake of fire consumes the wicked and the devil and his minions. The saints will have nothing to fear as they will be in the New Jerusalem with Christ.

 

[Hobie]

It seems that you are blind to what people write. Was not scripture referenced in my post.

Is not Genesis 2:17 telling us that if we disobey God's statutes, then we have sinned and will die the second death at the time of the final judgement.

Is not Ezekiel 18 presenting what will happen if we sin and are not repentant? Does it not state that we will experience the second death when we stand in the GWTR and judged to be unrighteous and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

It seems that you too only make assumptions and express your opinions. The two scriptures that I referenced gave teaching on the second death in the Lake of Fire, but the tradition of men who had no understanding, like you, have turn this teaching into something else .

Your put down of what I had posted means that you gave no second thoughts to the passages that I referenced and preferred the traditional understandings of men.

Sorry I must have missed your reference....

 

[Jay Ross]

No, the "second death" is never mentioned in Genesis. Only the one-time-only death requirement that Hebrews 9:27 spoke of. No one dies twice. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment".

The "second death" / aka, the "Lake of Fire" was the second time Death and Hell (the grave) came to plague the city of Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, just like it did under the Babylonian invasion back in Isaiah 28:14-19. For Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians, the rulers of Jerusalem and the people were overwhelmed by these scourges of Death and Hell (the grave) visiting the city in its overthrow. The same conditions came to overwhelm Jerusalem a second time in its overthrow by the close of AD 70 when the city quite literally appeared to be a "Lake of Fire" as it was being burned down by God's "devouring fire".

You are welcome to your opinion re the Second Death not being mentioned in Genesis. I believe that that is where it is found mentioned first and that there are a number of events where the second death played it part in the Story of Abraham journey.

As for your expressed opinion re Isiaih 28:14-19, I simply do not see it that way.

Goodbye

 

[Jay Ross]

Sorry I must have missed your reference....

It would be nice if you went back to post #17 and edited it to reflect the post and admit your error in what you had posted.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You are welcome to your opinion re the Second Death not being mentioned in Genesis. I believe that that is where it is found mentioned first and that there are a number of events where the second death played it part in the Story of Abraham journey.

Believing that a second death is possible for anyone directly contradicts the clear statement in Hebrews 9:27 that "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." ONCE and not twice. Scripture does not contradict itself, so if our viewpoint on a certain scripture passage conflicts with a clear statement found elsewhere in God's word, then there must be an alternative explanation of that passage.

 

[Hobie]

It would be nice if you went back to post #17 and edited it to reflect the post and admit your error in what you had posted.

I adjusted it but the reference was so vague, I couldnt find much to answer to. My apologies...

 

[Hobie]

Believing that a second death is possible for anyone directly contradicts the clear statement in Hebrews 9:27 that "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." ONCE and not twice. Scripture does not contradict itself, so if our viewpoint on a certain scripture passage conflicts with a clear statement found elsewhere in God's word, then there must be an alternative explanation of that passage.

The first death is the one common to all man/humans which is you die and its appointed only once as the saints do not die a second death as they are taken up at the first resurrection to heaven, it is only the wicked that suffer the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Hobie]

"Death" NEVER means a person 'ceases to exist' in the Christian Bible. "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"

The wicked will perish and be consumed in the lake of fire, as there is no place for them in the universe and for sin. It has become confused with all the Greek being used for translation so many Christians have a hard time understanding it. Here is a good explanation on this point I came on:
'...there are also several other passages that refer to hell, even if the exact word isn’t used. That’s because the English word “hell” was often used as a translation for multiple Greek or Hebrew words. And sometimes its use was literal, sometimes it was symbolic.

As with all Bible verses, it depends on the context of the passage.

First, let’s look at some of these words from the original languages and find out what they meant.

We’ll start with sheol, which means “the abode of the dead,”1 and hades, which was a term used to refer to “the underground abode of the dead” in Greek mythology.2

There was also the word gehenna, which originally meant “a place or state of misery.”3 It was used in Scripture to refer to places of filth and wickedness where corpses were burnt.4

These definitions refer to the location of the dead, not necessarily including anything about punishment or torment.

Additionally, the mention of a location (and the indication that it’s underground) aligns with the literal location of the dead—in underground graves.

The Bible writers likely used these words not to describe a location for hell, but to provide a metaphor for what hell is, or what it brings about—nonexistence, after destruction by consuming fire.

But how can we be sure? What about the Bible verses that talk about hell in relation to the fate of the wicked?

Again, it’s all about context. That’s why it’s best to study not just one verse, but a whole chapter. Or to look at different passages throughout Scripture that address the same issue or idea....

Hell is eternal​

This is another belief born from tradition and influenced by Greek culture.5 It came from a prominent idea among Greek thought-leaders that the human soul is immortal.6

It wasn’t a belief held by the followers of Jesus or the early Christian church.

Let’s follow this idea to its logical end: If all souls are immortal, then there must be an afterlife destination opposite of heaven to house the souls of those who didn’t repent and accept Jesus. And if they rejected the Savior who would give them eternal peace and joy, then wherever they go must be filled with eternal suffering and sadness.

But looking at Scripture, immortality is only attributed to God (1 Timothy 6:15–16), and the only people that inherit eternal life are those who accept Jesus (John 3:16; 17:3; 1 John 5:11, 20).

While the effects of hell’s flames are eternal and cannot be reversed, the lives of those encountering the flames are not eternal. They will experience the “second death.” Their punishment isn’t continual, but it is “everlasting”—because it’s final (Matthew 25:46). They will forever cease to exist.'

 

[Jack]

The wicked will perish and be consumed in the lake of fire, as there is no place for them in the universe and for sin. It has become confused with all the Greek being used for translation so many Christians have a hard time understanding it. Here is a good explanation on this point I came on:
'...there are also several other passages that refer to hell, even if the exact word isn’t used. That’s because the English word “hell” was often used as a translation for multiple Greek or Hebrew words. And sometimes its use was literal, sometimes it was symbolic.

As with all Bible verses, it depends on the context of the passage.

First, let’s look at some of these words from the original languages and find out what they meant.

We’ll start with sheol, which means “the abode of the dead,”1 and hades, which was a term used to refer to “the underground abode of the dead” in Greek mythology.2

There was also the word gehenna, which originally meant “a place or state of misery.”3 It was used in Scripture to refer to places of filth and wickedness where corpses were burnt.4

These definitions refer to the location of the dead, not necessarily including anything about punishment or torment.

Additionally, the mention of a location (and the indication that it’s underground) aligns with the literal location of the dead—in underground graves.

The Bible writers likely used these words not to describe a location for hell, but to provide a metaphor for what hell is, or what it brings about—nonexistence, after destruction by consuming fire.

But how can we be sure? What about the Bible verses that talk about hell in relation to the fate of the wicked?

Again, it’s all about context. That’s why it’s best to study not just one verse, but a whole chapter. Or to look at different passages throughout Scripture that address the same issue or idea....

Hell is eternal​

This is another belief born from tradition and influenced by Greek culture.5 It came from a prominent idea among Greek thought-leaders that the human soul is immortal.6

It wasn’t a belief held by the followers of Jesus or the early Christian church.

Let’s follow this idea to its logical end: If all souls are immortal, then there must be an afterlife destination opposite of heaven to house the souls of those who didn’t repent and accept Jesus. And if they rejected the Savior who would give them eternal peace and joy, then wherever they go must be filled with eternal suffering and sadness.

But looking at Scripture, immortality is only attributed to God (1 Timothy 6:15–16), and the only people that inherit eternal life are those who accept Jesus (John 3:16; 17:3; 1 John 5:11, 20).

While the effects of hell’s flames are eternal and cannot be reversed, the lives of those encountering the flames are not eternal. They will experience the “second death.” Their punishment isn’t continual, but it is “everlasting”—because it’s final (Matthew 25:46). They will forever cease to exist.'

Actually it's quite clear. Even the JW bible says "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER". Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first death is the one common to all man/humans which is you die and its appointed only once as the saints do not die a second death as they are taken up at the first resurrection to heaven, it is only the wicked that suffer the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those blessed saints who took part in the "First Resurrection" on the same day that Christ arose (the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints at Jerusalem in AD 33) remained on the earth and were not affected at all by passing through the second death / Lake of Fire conditions found in Jerusalem by the close of AD 70. Any resurrected individual cannot possibly die again physically; they have been given changed, immortal and incorruptible forms, and are impervious to injury, death, sickness, demonic oppression, or the temptation to sin. This was true of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints of the "First resurrection" of AD 33.

Even the wicked do not die twice. Their bodies die once only, just as Hebrews 9:27 states for all mankind. Their soul which awaits the judgment is later brought before the GWT and judged. Not having Christ's vicarious holiness, their soul perishes also. We are to fear Him who has power to destroy both soul and body.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Looks as if this was to be taking place on earth during people's natural lifetime, since Day and Night are still recurring for them in this scenario. This is not an after-life perpetual torment of the wicked, but an accompanying irritating result of their ongoing worship of the Sea Beast during their lifetime while still on earth. Otherwise, it would read "...they have no rest who had worshipped the beast and his image..."

Says you, but the bible does not say so. god is speaking to us and the phraseology "day nor night forever and forever shows it simply means there is no break from them being tortured.

Now you have a bigger problem, you have people living on the earth being tortured for eternity!

 

[3 Resurrections]

god is speaking to us and the phraseology "day nor night forever and forever shows it simply means there is no break from them being tortured.

The Greek for "Forever and ever" is "to ages of ages" (aionas aionon). And Paul once wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:11 of that first-century generation he was writing to that "the ends of the ages" (tele ton aionon) had arrived at that time.

Ages have beginning and ending points, so scripture in Revelation 14:11 is not speaking of perpetual torment in the afterlife of eternity on the planet or elsewhere. It was speaking of continual torment going on without ceasing during the day and night. This would last until the ends of those ages Paul spoke of had been completed (the ends of the ages that had arrived for that first-century generation).

The word "forever" is often used in a finite sense, as in Isaiah 32:14-15. "Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens forever, a joy of wild asses a pasture of flocks; UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." This was a continual state of desolation UNTIL God moved to change that condition.

 

[strepho]

Good thread.
Hell is called sheol. In Luke chapter 16. Jesus gave analogy about Richman and Lazarus.
Richman went hell.
Lazarus to paradise.

There's Gulf fixed between both sides. Neither side can cross over.

The wicked and spirtualty dead are in sheol, called hell. They are waiting for judgement day. Hell is holding place.

Revelation chapter 20 . The lake of fire is for reprobates. Those found unworthy. They go with satan into lake of fire.

We understand the the difference between sheol and lake of fire.