The Lake of Fire or Hell

[Jack]

Rev 20 "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!

 

[Hobie]

Actually it's quite clear. Even the JW bible says "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER". Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

So they have eternal life, no, thats not what God says...

 

[Hobie]

Those blessed saints who took part in the "First Resurrection" on the same day that Christ arose (the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints at Jerusalem in AD 33) remained on the earth and were not affected at all by passing through the second death / Lake of Fire conditions found in Jerusalem by the close of AD 70. Any resurrected individual cannot possibly die again physically; they have been given changed, immortal and incorruptible forms, and are impervious to injury, death, sickness, demonic oppression, or the temptation to sin. This was true of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints of the "First resurrection" of AD 33.

Even the wicked do not die twice. Their bodies die once only, just as Hebrews 9:27 states for all mankind. Their soul which awaits the judgment is later brought before the GWT and judged. Not having Christ's vicarious holiness, their soul perishes also. We are to fear Him who has power to destroy both soul and body.

No, this happens at the end as you can see by the context..

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, this happens at the end as you can see by the context..

But at the end of what? There are different sets of ages that come to an end at different times. Paul said that those in the first-century generation were at the end of a set of ages ("...on us upon whom the ends of the ages have come..."). That "us" was speaking of Paul's generation.

But after that ending, there would also be "ages that are coming" after that point, also according to Paul. From our perspective on the timeline, the future for you and me includes that end of another set of ages, which will also culminate in a GWT judgment. The books can be opened more than one time, you know.

 

[Hobie]

The Greek for "Forever and ever" is "to ages of ages" (aionas aionon). And Paul once wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:11 of that first-century generation he was writing to that "the ends of the ages" (tele ton aionon) had arrived at that time.

Ages have beginning and ending points, so scripture in Revelation 14:11 is not speaking of perpetual torment in the afterlife of eternity on the planet or elsewhere. It was speaking of continual torment going on without ceasing during the day and night. This would last until the ends of those ages Paul spoke of had been completed (the ends of the ages that had arrived for that first-century generation).

The word "forever" is often used in a finite sense, as in Isaiah 32:14-15. "Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens forever, a joy of wild asses a pasture of flocks; UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." This was a continual state of desolation UNTIL God moved to change that condition.

Or until its done..

 

[Hobie]

But at the end of what? There are different sets of ages that come to an end at different times. Paul said that those in the first-century generation were at the end of a set of ages ("...on us upon whom the ends of the ages have come..."). That "us" was speaking of Paul's generation.

But after that ending, there would also be "ages that are coming" after that point, also according to Paul. From our perspective on the timeline, the future for you and me includes that end of another set of ages, which will also culminate in a GWT judgment. The books can be opened more than one time, you know.

When Christ comes, this time here comes to an end...

 

[rwb]

We have many who say I dont have to worry, I am already gone up to heaven because my 'soul' has gone up and have nothing to worry about. Well, scripture tells us the "soul" is a living, breathing creature, the full human being. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An 'immortal soul' is never dead and has no need to repent or of Christs gift of eternal life.

Why does Scripture show living souls alive after physical death? Is it not because the spirit given to every human returned to God alive through the Spirit of Christ in them?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When Christ comes, this time here comes to an end...

There are scripture texts which describe history continuing for many years after Christ's second coming. Do you need me to list these?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

When Christ comes, this time here comes to an end...

There are scripture texts which describe history continuing for many years after Christ's second coming. Do you need me to list these?

Hobie,

Please explain if you are referring to when Christ comes that will be the end, period, or if you are referring to the next time Christ comes?

You both are indicating different things and for newer readers can be quite confusing.

Thanks so much.

 

[rwb]

There are scripture texts which describe history continuing for many years after Christ's second coming. Do you need me to list these?

Are you sure these, (I assume) Old Covenant texts describe history continuing after Christ's second coming, are NOT describing what shall be when the promised Messiah would come? After all is it NOT the prophesy of a Messiah to come the prophets of Old write extensively of?

 

[Jack]

So they have eternal life, no, thats not what God says...

"Death" NEVER means a person ceases to exist in the Bible.

 

[Ziggy]

The end of the Age.

When Christ came it was the end of the Age of the predominence of the Law. And He ushered in Grace.
When Christ returns at the end of this Age only those who believe and have faith in him will escape the Age to come.
And that Age will bring God's Judgment.
That is not to say there will not be grace available in the next Age, but Judgment will be predominent to those who have not believed.

That's how I understand it.
Hugs

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

"Death" NEVER means a person ceases to exist in the Bible.

I do find this subject one of impossibilities to understand clearly.

What does death mean to you, please?

 

[Jack]

I do find this subject one of impossibilities to understand clearly.

What does death mean to you, please?

It can mean more than one thing for sure. The unsaved are dead but alive physically and all who are dead physically.

 

[Ziggy]

Let's put this argument to rest = death = finale = quit

Why do you keep bringing this back up - resurrect = rehash = do over =continue

What is death and what is resurrection?

What is life?

Hugs

 

[Jack]

Let's put this argument to rest = death = finale = quit

1 Timothy 5:6
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

 

[Ziggy]

1 Timothy 5:6
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

She has no faith, no hope. All she sees it what there is.
Vanity.
Hugs

 

[Jack]

She has no faith, no hope. All she sees it what there is.
Vanity.
Hugs

My point was, she was dead and alive. Death does not mean cease to exist. BILLIONS in Hell will wish they ceased to exist.

 

[Ziggy]

My point was, she was dead and alive. Death does not mean cease to exist. MANY in Hell will wish they ceased to exist.

We are in hell
Hugs

 

[Jack]

We are in hell
Hugs

I hope you don't mean literally.