The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

I pretty much concur with that Retrobyter, except the part often left out about the ten lost tribes of Israel. Many in Christ's Church today who think they are Gentiles are going to wake up at Christ's coming and realize they have a heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel, a branch of Israel completely separate from the Jews of the house of Judah. Thus many Jews are going to be shocked by that too.

Understandable. And, please forgive me. I'm not used to including the Gentile/Isra'eli factor, but I concur that it is a highly probable scenario.

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -

Modern believers somewhat flippantly say, "we are IN CHRIST," without ever thinking about what that MEANS! Do you understand that "Christ" means "Messiah?" And, do you understand what the "Messianic" prophecies meant to the Jews?! We Gentiles (Goyim) are GRAFTED INTO the Olive Tree of the Messiah's Kingdom! And, the Jews WILL BE grafted into that same Olive Tree, whether today through the ministries of the Gentiles to them, or when Yeshua` returns and "seeing is believing!" ALL ISRA'EL SHALL BE SAVED!

And, when they believe, they don't become a part of the "Church"; they are grafted into the Messiah's KINGDOM, as we are! However, it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST, not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!" It's THEIR own Olive Tree! THEY are the "natural branches!" Gentiles are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God!" Gentiles are "branches of a wild olive tree grafted in contrary to nature!" Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about the household of God and their own status within that household! Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about their Jewish roots!

Who is a subset of whom?! It's not that the believing Jews are a subset of the "church"; it's that believers, Jew or Gentile, are subsets of the Olive Tree, the Messiah's Kingdom! The SAME Kingdom over which David ruled and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled! Yeshua` is rightly called "the Son of David!" His lineages, recorded in both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, prove that He is David's Heir to his throne
!


However, it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST, not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!"

You are a little mixed up or just plain ignorant!

Let's go to scripture -

Genesis 17:1-2

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old,the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."


Fact # 1 - Abram was a Gentile.

Fact # 2 - The Lord that made covenant became flesh. His name is Jesus.

Fact # 3 - We are partakers of that covenant, "in Christ".


If you want to get technical, Abraham was the first member of the church or "assembly" which that is what the children of Israel are referred to in the"so called" Old Testament.


Just thought you might want to consider these facts, before you make another comment like "it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST" or "not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!"


Thanks, JLB

No, neither mixed up nor ignorant. I just use the common generalization of calling all Isra'elim "Jews." Actually, they are neither "Jews" nor "Isra'elis" but "Avrahamiym" - "Abrahamites," if you'll pardon a little semantic liberty.

I'm not ignorant of the fact that the "church" was something far older than the first century, either. However, many believers who call themselves "Christians" have a far different definition of the word "church" or "Church," usually capitalized if they accept the concept of a universal entity called the "Church." I do NOT accept these johnny-come-lately definitions. All the word "church" is (when one is talking about the word used as translation for the Greek word "ekkleesia") is a COLLECTIVE NOUN (actually more of a gerund as a participle with noun properties) meaning a "group" or a "gathering." That's why the word "ekkleesia" has also been used for the town mob at Ephesus in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41, there translated "assembly."

It was also used of the congregation of the Isra'elim (the children of Isra'el) as they were gathered around Mount Sinai in Acts 7:38. Therefore, since the congregation of the children of Isra'el was the "church," I must disagree with you about Avraham being the first member of the "church," although I understand your point.

As far as the Kingdom is concerned, when it was first delivered to David, it was a Kingdom of the Jews first. Seven and a half years later, the rest of Isra'el anointed him as their king as well. Furthermore, it was in Y'hudah (Judah) where Yerushalayim was built and where the Temple was constructed. After both halves of the Kingdom were taken captive, the northern tribes of Isra'el did not return; the Y'hudiym (the Jews) did! There are ample reasons why the term "Jews" has grown to be representative of the entire nation of Isra'el.

Shalom, veteran.

That was because of where Abraham's ancestors lived, in the land Ur of the Chaldee. Per Gen.11 Abram (Abraham) was descended from Eber, and Eber is where the name Hebrew came from. You'll find Laban and Bethuel were also called 'Syrian', yet they all were of Shem's people per Gen.11 descended from Eber, and thus all Hebrews.

A bit of a mistake here. Avraham moved FROM the land of Ur of the Chaldees, which is in southern Iraq, "between the rivers," TO Aram (or Syria) at the northern peak of the Fertile Crescent around the headwaters of the Euphrates:

After his son Haran died in Ur, Avram's father Terach took his two remaining sons Avram, and Nachowr, and their wives, and his grandson Lowt, Haran's son, with him to Aram. So, when they arrived in a good land, Terach put down roots there. Nachowr also had a son and called his name Haran also after his brother who had died. Later, the children of Nachowr were `Utz, Buz, K'mu'el, Kesed, Hazo, Pildash, Yidlaf, and B'tu'el through his wife Milkah and Tevach, Gacham, Tachash, and Ma`akhah through his concubine, Re'uwmah. The son of K'mu'el was Aram (from whom we get the name of the country and the "Aramaic" language). The children of B'tu'el were Lavan (Laban) and Rivkah (Rebekah), and the children of Lavan were at least Le'ah and Rachel. They all put down roots in a town called "Charan" (not the same as Haran, Terach's son), also called "the city of Nachowr." Then, Avram and his wife Sarai and his nephew Lowt moved on from Charan when God called Avram a second time.

Avram, later his name was changed to Avraham, was indeed called a "Syrian" because he used to live there with his father. All Nachowr's sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, etc., were "Syrians," as was he.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


A bit of a mistake here. Avraham moved FROM the land of Ur of the Chaldees, which is in southern Iraq, "between the rivers," TO Aram (or Syria) at the northern peak of the Fertile Crescent around the headwaters of the Euphrates:

After his son Haran died in Ur, Avram's father Terach took his two remaining sons Avram, and Nachowr, and their wives, and his grandson Lowt, Haran's son, with him to Aram. So, when they arrived in a good land, Terach put down roots there. Nachowr also had a son and called his name Haran also after his brother who had died. Later, the children of Nachowr were `Utz, Buz, K'mu'el, Kesed, Hazo, Pildash, Yidlaf, and B'tu'el through his wife Milkah and Tevach, Gacham, Tachash, and Ma`akhah through his concubine, Re'uwmah. The son of K'mu'el was Aram (from whom we get the name of the country and the "Aramaic" language). The children of B'tu'el were Lavan (Laban) and Rivkah (Rebekah), and the children of Lavan were at least Le'ah and Rachel. They all put down roots in a town called "Charan" (not the same as Haran, Terach's son), also called "the city of Nachowr." Then, Avram and his wife Sarai and his nephew Lowt moved on from Charan when God called Avram a second time.

Avram, later his name was changed to Avraham, was indeed called a "Syrian" because he used to live there with his father. All Nachowr's sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, etc., were "Syrians," as was he.

I'm aware of where Abram moved to. But that was not where Abram's ancestors originated.

Gen 11:26-31
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.
30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
(KJV)

 

[JLB]

Yeah Veteran, the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will be destroyed. Don't you know that after all the desolations God sends down, ten people will take the hem of one Jew and ask that he take them to his God?

Rev 11 doesn't destory my argument; you are delusional. Before Rev 11's seventh Trumpet comes the Day of the Lord at the sixth Seal. The Day of the Lord comes after the SHORTENED Great Tribulation. You haven't destroyed anything. You can't refute the connections I've made; you haven't even tried.

JLB: trying to be insulting? Very Christian of you to use Bible verses as a club.


Not a club, but a suggestion. Whether it applies to me or to you, if the shoe fits, wear it !

Thanks, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

So I have three Post-Tribbers here and not one of you who joins in debate can actually debate the linkage of specific and unique events: Jesus coming on the clouds to gather the Harvest of Christians -and- the sun/moon/star event; which show the Last Trumpet is blown by God coincidental with the sixth Seal - before the seventh Trumpet sounds ~ so that they cannot be the same Trumpet.

I have listed the other differences between the Trumpets, and Retro has affirmed those differences yet he still maintains the two Trumpets are the same.

I have refuted arguments for the coming Harvest to be coincident with Armageddon by showing in both linear narratives from the book of Revelation that the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before the Wrath of God goes out with the first Trumpet and that the Harvest of Saints occurs before the Bowl Judgments which lead up to the battle of Armageddon.

So I suggest that you three would rather argue about anything than change your fundamental belief by confronting the illogical position of insisting that the Last Trumpet is the seventh Trumpet.

 

[JLB]

So I have three Post-Tribbers here and not one of you who joins in debate can actually debate the linkage of specific and unique events: Jesus coming on the clouds to gather the Harvest of Christians -and- the sun/moon/star event; which show the Last Trumpet is blown by God coincidental with the sixth Seal - before the seventh Trumpet sounds ~ so that they cannot be the same Trumpet.

I have listed the other differences between the Trumpets, and Retro has affirmed those differences yet he still maintains the two Trumpets are the same.

I have refuted arguments for the coming Harvest to be coincident with Armageddon by showing in both linear narratives from the book of Revelation that the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before the Wrath of God goes out with the first Trumpet and that the Harvest of Saints occurs before the Bowl Judgments which lead up to the battle of Armageddon.

So I suggest that you three would rather argue about anything than change your fundamental belief by confronting the illogical position of insisting that the Last Trumpet is the seventh Trumpet.

I have continually given you scripture for my belief. You on the other hand have given opinion and tagged it with a scripture reference that has nothing to do with your belief.


So now, answer my question - If Jesus returns before the tribulation to rapture the church, will His Coming be visible or invisible?

Please include the scripture that substantiates your belief.


Thanks, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

Nonsense. I have quoted more Scripture and again: I will go back to the original post and I will repeat my challenge that you have not been able to refute.

Jesus does not return before the Great Tribulation. (The one 'seven' is NOT the "Tribulation Period.") His coming will be most certainly visible; multiple witnesses have prophesized that fact. You want Scripture for that? Try 1Th 3:13 and Rev 1:7.

What you don't have is ANY Scripture saying the Last Trumpet call of God which assembles the Elect at the Harvest is the same as the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath blown by an Angel which sends down the third Woe.

 

[JLB]

Revelation 11:15-19

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Same as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Dead are resurrected which is same as 1 Corinthians 15: 51-51

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Last Trumpet and seventh Trumpet are the same according to the Word of God.


At the Last Trumpet the dead will be raised.

At the Seventh Trumpet The Dead will be judged.


Again I have given you scripture again your argument has NO scriptural proof. NONE!


YOU ARE WRONG!

GOODBYE !!!!!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

So I have three Post-Tribbers here and not one of you who joins in debate can actually debate the linkage of specific and unique events: Jesus coming on the clouds to gather the Harvest of Christians -and- the sun/moon/star event; which show the Last Trumpet is blown by God coincidental with the sixth Seal - before the seventh Trumpet sounds ~ so that they cannot be the same Trumpet.

I have listed the other differences between the Trumpets, and Retro has affirmed those differences yet he still maintains the two Trumpets are the same.

I have refuted arguments for the coming Harvest to be coincident with Armageddon by showing in both linear narratives from the book of Revelation that the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before the Wrath of God goes out with the first Trumpet and that the Harvest of Saints occurs before the Bowl Judgments which lead up to the battle of Armageddon.

So I suggest that you three would rather argue about anything than change your fundamental belief by confronting the illogical position of insisting that the Last Trumpet is the seventh Trumpet.

What I maintain is that the two trumpets are RELATED. Look carefully at the sixth seal:

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Do you see any mention of a trumpet in these verses?

Now, look at the seventh trumpet:

Revelation 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

In these verses, do you see any of the astronomical signs associated with the Second Coming?

These two passages (and all that is between them and around them) were SUMMARIZED by Yeshua` and CONDENSED into the three verses following:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Don't be too quick to put words in my mouth! I feel it is awfully presumptuous of you to say I've "affirmed" anything! First, I don't believe in the "Tribulation" being a simple 7-year period or the "Great Tribulation" being a simple 3.5-year period. I don't believe that the 70th Seven of Dani'el is yet to come, only half of it, and I don't equate the 70th Seven with the "Tribulation" at all! Thus, in the strictest sense, I am not your typical "Posttribber" or "Posttribulational Rapturist," although I feel of the traditional positions, it is the closest to the truth.

 

[teleiosis]

Raised is NOT the same as Judged! LOL
The Judgment comes on two sorry individuals: the anti-Christ and the false prophet. The Bride has her unveiling as well, and there are seven Crowns believers can be granted.

The first Resurrection is not complete until after the one 'seven' when the number of Martyrs is made complete. Only then are they made alive, previously, they had been given white linen but they were told they would have to wait awhile.

The raising of the Dead happens on the Day of the Lord and that happens coincidentally with the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal BEFORE any and all of the numbered Trumpets of God's Wrath.

The named Last Trumpet that is God's Trumpet is not the last Trumpet which announces the third Woe.

 

[JLB]

Raised is NOT the same as Judged! LOL
The Judgment comes on two sorry individuals: the anti-Christ and the false prophet. The Bride has her unveiling as well, and there are seven Crowns believers can be granted.

The first Resurrection is not complete until after the one 'seven' when the number of Martyrs is made complete. Only then are they made alive, previously, they had been given white linen but they were told they would have to wait awhile.

The raising of the Dead happens on the Day of the Lord and that happens coincidentally with the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal BEFORE any and all of the numbered Trumpets of God's Wrath.

The named Last Trumpet that is God's Trumpet is not the last Trumpet which announces the third Woe.

You have the same propblem. No scripture.

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints...


Clearly, the dead have been raised to be rewarded! Checkmate!

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


Your scriptural understanding has been weighed and found wanting!!!


JLB

 

[teleiosis]

LOL!

One of God's three Trumpets
SevenTrumpets given to seven Angels

Named Trumpet
Numbered Trumpet

Trumpet of Assembly
Trumpet of Announcement

Trumpet raising the Dead in Christ
Trumpet bringing down desolations

If you read Rev 11 closely, you will see after ALL the desolations have taken place - THEN - an Elder says it is the time to judge the dead and reward the Saints.
If you read Rev 11 loosely, you will jump to the foregone conclusion you had in the first place.

There is one thing which stands in the way of learning, that is: contempt prior to investigation.

I gave all the Scripture before JLB, now I'm just laughing at your grasping of straws...
(P.S. - anytime some says "clearly" I know that what they're trying to present is anything but clear.)

 

[JLB]

The correlation between Revelation 11:15 and 1 Thessalonians 4: as well as 1 Corinthians 15 has been laid out and made plain for all to see.

The thread that you started has been shown to be false.

You continue to argue giving no scriptural proof.


You just can't seem to get the fact that you are arguing with the Word of God.


If you want to continue arguing with the Word, do it by yourself.


JLB

 

[teleiosis]

Rev 11:15 does not match 1Th 4:16 or 1Co 15:52 other than it's a trumpet, and there is more than one kind of trumpet and each trumpet has its purpose. "Plain," "clearly:" only in your eyes, but then again, you're heavily biased towards your belief structure. Don't believe everything you think.

Before Rev 11:15 is Rev 6:12-14 which matches Mt 24:29 and after the sun/moon/star sign is the coming of our Lord Jesus Mt 24:30-31 on the clouds WHICH DOES MATCH 1Th 4:16-17 and Rev 14:14-16. Afterward - in the sixth Seal, the Great Multitude, which is the Church, shows up in Heaven - Rev 7:9-17 and all of this happens ON the Day of the Lord which comes after the SHORTENED Great Tribulation and BEFORE any or ALL the seven Trumpets blow. Ergo: the Last Trumpet cannot be the seventh Trumpet; it comes before it.

In addition, Rev 14:14-16 comes before God's Wrath in Rev 14:17 which culminates with the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon - which is also lined up with the third Woe: it is revealed (coming last) as the seven Bowl Judgments which ends the one 'seven,' - LONG after the Day of the Lord has gathered the Harvest.

 

[veteran]

Yeah Veteran, the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will be destroyed. Don't you know that after all the desolations God sends down, ten people will take the hem of one Jew and ask that he take them to his God?

Rev 11 doesn't destory my argument; you are delusional. Before Rev 11's seventh Trumpet comes the Day of the Lord at the sixth Seal. The Day of the Lord comes after the SHORTENED Great Tribulation. You haven't destroyed anything. You can't refute the connections I've made; you haven't even tried.

If you don't recognize the New Jerusalem coming down to this earth as per Rev.21, then it means you don't understand how the heavenly is going to be right here on the earth. That was my point. God through Isaiah even foretold how we'd plant vineyards and build houses in His future Kingdom on earth. The Biblical clauses about the new earth is not a literal complete discarding of this present earth; it simply means God is going to scrape man's works off the surface of this present earth in order to bring the new, like how He did that with the flood of Noah's day, except with fire this next time (2 Pet.3).

A portion of that scraping is going to begin with Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" (2 Pet.3:10). And that's what the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing in Rev.11 is.

That's why the "last trump" events Paul gave about those on earth being 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" also confirms the 7th Trumpet timing with Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord".


But you're still stuck on the 6th Seal events.

The Seals of Rev.6 don't define the order of our Lord's Revelation. But the Trumpets do, which is why Jesus gave 3 Woe periods associated with the last 3 Trumpets.

It's a mistake to treat the written order of how John was given the vision as how all the events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials occur. Everything will remain jumbled up if one tries to discern just by the written order of Revelation. Christ's coming is actulaly on the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. In His Olivet Discourse is where He first gave the 7 signs leading up to the day of His return on the final sign. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials make up 21 definitions of just... those same 7 signs.

But what those in the seminaries have done, is to try to make the order of how those are written in Revelation to be the order that they occur. In their trying to make that fit one school has come up with the 'fly away' rapture before Rev.6, and another school claiming a rapture prior to the Vials. Both are wrong.

Simply looking at the type of events on the 6th Seal ought to immediately reveal that's about the final sign of Christ's coming and directly relates to events of the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. I mean, on the 6th Trumpet and 6th Vial Satan's host are still doing their thing on earth, meaning the tribulation period hadn't ended yet. Because the "day of the Lord" events include the event of man's works being scraped off this earth (especially per the OT prophets), and it's also the day of Christ's return per Paul and Peter, we should immediately realize any false working still going on upon the earth means that 'day' has not yet come.

 

[revturmoil]

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

Logically from scripture??? TOO MUCH "ICE!"

Only a pre-tribulationist could believe that the last trumpet comes before the first trumpet!

Can't you see the extensive fabrications and contradictions in 'pre-tribulationism!'

 

[teleiosis]

"Islam will dominate the world?" I don't think so; the King of the North is victorious over the South and the East at Armageddon. Scripture says he will rule the whole world and woe to him who gains the whole world and loses his soul.

The Last Trumpet is a NAMED Trumpet of God which does come before the first NUMBERED Trumpet of His Wrath. This can be shown in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) which show the Great Multitude in Heaven following the Day of the Lord's signature sun/moon/star sign in the sixth Seal which happens BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which finally allows the Scroll to be opened (introduced in Rev 5:5) and the desolations which have been decreed (Dan 9:26) to go forth.

I am not a Pre-Trib advocate. Pre-Trib and Thomas Ice are not Scripturally correct on the placement of the Rapture. Do you have any argument to present which can refute the original post showing the logical connection in Scripture which shows that the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet? Or are you just hung up on your simple man-based thinking?

 

[revturmoil]

The issue of the "last trump" should give you some indication of the extensive fabrications associated with the pretrib /mid/prewrath theories. It takes volumes of books just to cover them especially the resulting contradictions in pretribulationism. I don't have the time to discuss the matter because the OP has many of those fabrications and contradictions.

 

[teleiosis]

There is no fabrication. There is a direct linkage of specific and unique events described in the linear narratives of Bible prophecy which conclusively prove, and can be shown in more than one way, that the Last Trumpet which calls us home is NOT the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

What you've done is a drive-by nay-say. You can't take on the original argument on page one and refute it. You just make a quick post saying it's not true but without any evidence other than your incorrect assumptions. Come back when you want to establish yourself as a credible critic and discuss the Scripture which was first presented that proves my point.

 

[revturmoil]

There is no fabrication. There is a direct linkage of specific and unique events described in the linear narratives of Bible prophecy which conclusively prove, and can be shown in more than one way, that the Last Trumpet which calls us home is NOT the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

What you've done is a drive-by nay-say. You can't take on the original argument on page one and refute it. You just make a quick post saying it's not true but without any evidence other than your incorrect assumptions. Come back when you want to establish yourself as a credible critic and discuss the Scripture which was first presented that proves my point.

With just a little reasearch this is what I think and what I found.

One fabrication they use is changing the timing of the day of the Lord. They also had to change the timing of the marriage supper of the Lamb to make the scripture fit they're false theories as well as a few other things.
The day of the Lord is the last day. It is not 7 or 3 1/2 years before Armageddon. And it is not during but at the end of the tribulation. Strongs lexicon assiciates the last trump with the last day.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G4536&t=KJV

Something else happens on 'the last day'
John 6:39 　And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 　And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is when theres a resurrection and a gathering/translation where we are transformed from coruptible to incoruptible etc.
1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you look the word last in Strongs in 1 Cor. 15:52 and read Thayers Lexicon you will read.
in a temporal succession...the last.
that remains when when the resr have one after another been spent.
the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2078&t=KJV

This is what happens at the seventh trump.
15 　And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:18 　And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Need I say more?

 

[JLB]

With just a little reasearch this is what I think and what I found.

One fabrication they use is changing the timing of the day of the Lord. They also had to change the timing of the marriage supper of the Lamb to make the scripture fit they're false theories as well as a few other things.
The day of the Lord is the last day. It is not 7 or 3 1/2 years before Armageddon. And it is not during but at the end of the tribulation. Strongs lexicon assiciates the last trump with the last day.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G4536&t=KJV

Something else happens on 'the last day'
John 6:39 　And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 　And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is when theres a resurrection and a gathering/translation where we are transformed from coruptible to incoruptible etc.
1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you look the word last in Strongs in 1 Cor. 15:52 and read Thayers Lexicon you will read.
in a temporal succession...the last.
that remains when when the resr have one after another been spent.
the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2078&t=KJV

This is what happens at the seventh trump.
15 　And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:18 　And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Need I say more?

Several of us have given him those same scriptures over and over. He just argues.

Thanks for your research, JLB