The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

[teleiosis]

The last day is when theres a resurrection and a gathering/translation where we are transformed from coruptible to incoruptible etc.
1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you look the word last in Strongs in 1 Cor. 15:52 and read Thayers Lexicon you will read.
in a temporal succession...the last.
that remains when when the resr have one after another been spent.
the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

You started, but didn't complete it. 1Co 15:51-52 relates to 1Th 4:16-17, which in turn relates to Mt 24:29-31 which in turn relates to Rev 6:12-14 and the sixth Seal, which comes before all the Trumpets of God's Wrath.

You are relying on Strongs or the Thayer lexicon to interpret the Bible? That's pretty weak. Last means last... yeah, right. That's man-logic. In God's Word, the Last Trumpet starts the Festival of Trumpets. So much for it being last in the Jewish tradition. In the series of God's Trumpets which are associated with the "Appointed Times" which is what the Festivals mean, the Last Trumpet of Rosh ha-Shanah is followed by the Great Trumpet of Yom Kippur. So much for last meaning last in God's Wisdom; He turns your wisdom upside down.

There are three Trumpets of God associated with the Festivals, or Appointed Times.
There are seven Trumpets of God's Wrath which are sounded by Angels. They are not the same.

The "Last Day" is whenever Jesus comes and so ends the Church Age (begun, with great significance with the Festival of Weeks which is signified by the blowing of the First Trumpet - which is NOT the first Trumpet of God's Wrath either) - but one thing is true: It CANNOT be the last day of the one 'seven' because then everyone will know it is coming. The Last Day is an unknown day known only by the Father. You classical Post-Tribbers miss the mark again.

 

[JLB]

...but one thing is true: It CANNOT be the last day of the one 'seven' because then everyone will know it is coming. The Last Day is an unknown day known only by the Father. You classical Post-Tribbers miss the mark again.

Only those who are "children of the day" will know the day approaches!. Those who watch.

What do you think we are watching for? Something we will never discern? Why watch? Why would The Lord have us to watch?

Why would he give us the signs to watch for?


WAKE UP AND READ THE BIBLE!

 

[teleiosis]

Yes I've read the Bible and I'm wondering what part of the Bible you haven't read or comprehended.

One: We will know when the time is ripe. Mt 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

Jesus gives us the key sequence of events in the Olivet Discourse.

• The (midpoint) abomination
• The shortened Great Tribluation
• The sun/moon/star celestial sign
• His coming upon the clouds to gather the Elect

These four specific and unique events along with later revelations allow us to align the Rapture with the sixth Seal to then back to the one 'seven'. The Olivet Discourse is the vital key link between the books of Revelation and Daniel.

Jesus later gives John several different, overlapping visions which John wrote in the book of Revelation which let us know what will come, and in some instances have already come (I think the first four Seals have already been opened). The two main linear narratives are the broad overview of the Seals and the Scroll in chapters 4-11 (exclusive) and the detailed account of just the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16 (inclusive). John is not able to disclose what he knows for much of his life (2Co 12:2) but wrote Revelation late in life, around A.D. 90-95 by most scholars estimate, so that we have them today.

These linear narratives of end-time prophecy with their specific and unique events allow us to form an overall sequence-of-events for the end-times. Jesus mentions no less than four specific and unique events in the Olivet Discourse which allows us to peg the Day of the Lord with its attendant Rapture of those who are still alive and are left after the shortened Great Tribulation as being sometime after the midpoint Abomination. The specific ordering by Jesus allows to discern that the Last Trumpet which calls us home is not the same as the seventh Trumpet which calls down the third Woe Wrath. Furthermore: the Bible never equates the two either to oppose that revelation.

Two: While we will not be caught unaware, still we can never know when the Father will initiate the Day of the Lord. Mt 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Now I don't know what part of Mt 24:36 you haven't read, or don't understand, but what "classical" Post-Trib "last-day-ers" try to tell me doesn't comport with the Bible. The Great Tribulation is shortened. The word in the Greek is the same one as you use to "dock" an animals tail; it means to abruptly cut off. The Greek is very specific. Likewise, when Jesus says NO ONE KNOWS - you make His Words none of your effect by pegging the last day of the Church Age to the last day of the one 'seven.' Who are you to say that YOU know? Are you greater than Jesus? The hubris on display is sickening!

So - while in the broad overview of the end-times in Rev 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) we find that the Day of the Lord happens coincidently with the sixth Seal with its tell-tale signature event the sun/moon/star sign from God, and subsequent to that, a Great Multitude is in Heaven prior to the opening of the Scroll which is where the desolations decreed by God so long ago have been stored until the Day of the Lord Wrath is due comes out - AND - in the detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 of Rev 14:14-16 -as an additional proof- the Harvest from the clouds by Jesus (identical to Mt 24:30-31 and 1Th 4:16-17) comes before the last desolations of God's Wrath with the Bowl Judgments - which I think are the revealed third Woe desolations which we never hear mentioned in the Seal/Scroll account.
__________________________________________

Now maybe you're not very good at Mensa puzzles; this is a grand one. However, it is not too hard to put the various linear narratives in a complete order which allows us to know when the time will be ripe and I don't expect to be taken unaware at all. In fact, I am watching and have been for some time. Things are progressing quite nicely by the way and it's going to get worse for us, not better, in the short-run.

Or maybe you're too "invested" emotionally in your own thinking to change because of what Jesus said, and what is written in the Bible. You make Jesus' Words of warning in Mt 24:36 none of your effect and stretch the Great Tribulation out (impossibly so) despite Jesus telling us quite the opposite.

The Bible, taken objectively, and without rancor or emotional appeal, spells out that we will go into the one 'seven' with the rest of the world and that we will be handed over so as to be put death and that only some of us will live to see the Lord come on the clouds, but that all that will happen prior to God's Wrath being poured out on the wicked.

Pre-Wrath is post-Great Tribulation. I suggest you wake up and read the Bible too.

 

[revturmoil]

Why did Paul use the word eschatos for the word last in 1 Cor. 15:52 when he could have used any of the other words for last that do not denote continuity/contiguity which means the last in a succession of things

Can't you see how complicated you make this? For any theory to be true it must have continuity. Every verse to support it must be in accord. There's so much stuff to your beliefs and nearly every one of them need confrontation but I ain't got time!

Just accept it
in a temporal succession...the last.
that remains when when the resr have one after another been spent.
the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

The only people who put down resources like Thayer's, Strong's, Vines, Wuest, and Gesenius are those are that are proven wrong by their work in the original language of God's Word. You expect me to believe you over what I see here? It's a no brainer...change your mind!

Result of search for "last":
2078. eschatos es'-khat-os a superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
　
　

 

[teleiosis]

Last means last. Yeah, right.

Why does the Last Trumpet at the Temple ceremony for Rosh ha-Shanah begin the Festival of Trumpets and various trumpets blow for two days?

Why in the sequence of the Festivals is the Last Trumpet not last? It is followed by the Great Trumpet!

Why isn't the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks the same as the first Trumpet of God's Wrath? It is the mirror shofar to the Last Trumpet coming from the same ram.

Last means last, except when it comes to the mysteries of God.

You cannot refute the Scripture which demonstrates the Last Trumpet happens with the sixth Seal.

 

[revturmoil]

Last means last. Yeah, right.

Why does the Last Trumpet at the Temple ceremony for Rosh ha-Shanah begin the Festival of Trumpets and various trumpets blow for two days?

Why in the sequence of the Festivals is the Last Trumpet not last? It is followed by the Great Trumpet!

Why isn't the First Trumpet of the Festival of Weeks the same as the first Trumpet of God's Wrath? It is the mirror shofar to the Last Trumpet coming from the same ram.

Last means last, except when it comes to the mysteries of God.

You cannot refute the Scripture which demonstrates the Last Trumpet happens with the sixth Seal.

You cannot refute the Scripture which demonstrates the Last Trumpet happens with the sixth Seal.

I just did! We aren't talking about...Rosh ha-Shanah or any of the festivals! We are talking about the trumpets of God! It's obvious to me that the last trump which is associated with the resurrection is the same as the seventh trumpet that's associated with judgement and the earthly reign of Christ.

Here's a little review.

Revelation 11:15 　And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 　And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 　Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 　And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The righteous dead are judged at the seventh trumpet right after the resurrection and gathering.

1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.Let's see? At the last trump the dead are raised...and 'changed!'

At the seventh trumpet we are judged and rewarded. (Rev 11) We cannot be judged unless we are raised incorruptible. (1 Cor. 15:52) See the connection? They are the same trumpet!

At the seventh trumpet the mystery of God is finished.

Revelation 10:7 　But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51 　¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 'last' means the last in a succession of trumpets!

 

[teleiosis]

No you didn't refute the train of logic, and you don't know anything about trumpets or Festivals. You illustrated your own ignorance quite well and at the risk of being mistaken for a fool, I'll try to say this again.

1 Co 15:51-53 speaks of the RISING of the Dead in Christ.
That is also what Paul is saying in 1Th 4:16-17.

It is NOT by sheer coincidence of the mention of the word: trumpet, the same as the third Woe which the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath brings into being.
It is NOT just because of the mention of dead being JUDGED, the same as their being RAISED!

What you equate is just foolishness; you've made a connection without anything being connected except that trumpets and "dead" are mentioned!

Now in 1Th 4:16-17, goes along with 2Th 2:1-2, and in that first part of Paul's second letter, he expressly equates the raising of the Dead in Christ as happening on the Day of Christ which is synonymous with the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is evidenced in prophecy as following the sun/moon/star event.

True enough, in Mt 24:29 we see after the shortened Great Tribulation, the start of the Day of the Lord and with it, the Rapture which comes after the Dead in Christ are raised.

In Rev 6:12-14, the same sun/moon/star event happens and following it in sequential order in Scripture, told in its linear narrative form as so much of the Bible is, is the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17.

The Great Multitude, who are the Church now raised to immortality in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence, are taken OUT OF the Great Tribulation BEFORE any of the trumpets of God's Wrath are sounded by Angels! This includes the seventh Trumpet.

So:

• Scripturally, you cannot refute the connections given, but can only grasp at words to make a connection which is not a connection at all.
• The NAMED Trumpets of God are His. They are in order of the Festivals, or appointed times; the First Trumpet (Festival of Weeks), the Last Trumpet (Rosh ha-Shanah) and the Great Trumpet (Yom Kippur). Even in God's world, the Last Trumpet is not "last." That's one of His mysteries.
• The NUMBERED Trumpets of God's Wrath are blown by Angels. They are not assembly Trumpets, but announcement Trumpets.
• In the Festival of Trumpets, the Last Trumpet of the Temple ceremony is not last at all but is followed by two days of trumpet blowing!

The First Trumpet was blown almost 2000 years ago, and God's Wrath has not begun.
The Last Trumpet will be blown to raise the Dead in Christ.

The Day of the Lord is an "unknown" Day coming after the shortened Great Tribulation; it cannot be the last day of the one 'seven' because then everyone will know that day will be the day. (Rosh ha-Shanah is also known as the "unknown day.")

 

[romans7]

Sounds complicated. I would like to throw in something about the Millenium but I don't want to blow my trumpet

 

[revturmoil]

No you didn't refute the train of logic, and you don't know anything about trumpets or Festivals. You illustrated your own ignorance quite well and at the risk of being mistaken for a fool, I'll try to say this again.

That's right. You have no logic. Hey! Why don't you stop with the arrogant attitude. Growing up is like death. It'll catch up with you someday.

Your arrogance and name calling shows that you've been refuted.
We aren't talking about any Jewish festivals. We're talking about the seven trumpets.

And don't pat yourself on the back too much by putting me down. You'll knock that chip off your shoulder!

Sounds complicated. I would like to throw in something about the Millenium but I don't want to blow my trumpet

There's nothing complicated about the last trump or seventh trumpet. It's people who can't accept simple truths and then alter the Word of God to fit their theology who complicate things!

 

[teleiosis]

I'm sorry you feel slighted, but you're not presenting much more than a childish argument. Just because 1Co 15:51-53 and Rev 11:15-19 both mention the words "trumpet" and "dead" does not mean they are one and the same. You are making a bounding leap over logic to equate the two.

Now, there are trumpets of assembly, and God's Trumpets are of that category, and there are trumpets which announce or call forth, and the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath are of that nature.

This is besides all the other differences I've pointed out, which goes right over your head. You know nothing of the Festivals and how important they are in and of themselves just from what they are called in the Hebrew. You show no discernment at how the Spring Festivals mirror Christ's first Advent, and thus demonstrate a complete lack of education and an unwillingness to even learn how the Fall Festivals are a pattern for Christ's second Advent.

You also demonstrate a complete lack of discernment on the various uses for trumpets and how they were used in that day and age when the Bible was written. Trumpets were not only of various types, they served different causes. The Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:52 was one of two in a set of shofars taken from the same ram. The First Trumpet was sounded on the Festival of Weeks which the Jews used to celebrate the assembly of the whole nation to hear the Law when God gave it to Moses. The Last Trumpet was sounded with Rosh ha-Shanah and it began the Festival of Trumpets.

The First Trumpet begins the summer growing season; a very important part of an agricultural society. The Last Trumpet is sounded at the end of the growing season with the harvest of that crop. The First and Last Trumpets are mirror images of each other; they bookends the summer growing season. Indeed, they are taken from the same ram. Likewise, the First Trumpet begins the Church Age and the Last Trumpet ends the Church Age at our "Harvest."

Later on, God used the Festival of Weeks commenorating Law and beginning the growning season to release us from the Law and to begin the assembly of the Church. It was then that the Holy Spirit raced through the Apostles as foretold by Jesus. We lose some of the significance of this Day by simply calling it Pentecost, which simply means 'fifty.'

The Last Trumpet not only begins the celebration for the Harvest, but sets in motion a period of days which leads up to Yom Kippur. The intervening days between Rosh ha-Shanah and Yom Kippur are referred to as the "Days of Awe." Likewise, after our departure there will be such terrible days as that with God's Wrath. At the conclusion of the Days of Awe, is the Atonement - or as one Jewish author put it: the At-one-ment. This is when the Jews are reconciled to God. Likewise, in the Millennium, the Remnant Jews whom God has shepherded through His Wrath are brought to Him and the veil of Moses is lifted so that they see just who Jesus really is.
____________________________________

Paul tells us that the last call to assemble the Church from the Earth and into Heaven happens with the matching Last Trumpet. On this occasion, the Dead in Christ will rise. Paul previously told the Thessalonians that the Dead in Christ would rise first and then we would meet them and Jesus in the air. In his second letter to the Churches, Paul clarified that Day and called it the "Day of Christ." Christ being Lord, means Paul's declaration can be equated to the Day of the Lord.

Likewise, in Jesus' prophetic Olivet Discourse, we find that the signature event of the Day of the Lord happens before His Coming on the clouds. Like 1Th 4:16-17 and the subsequent Rev 14:14-16, this Coming is followed by the Rapture of all those who are left on the Earth and remain after the shortened Great Tribulation has reduced the Elect to just a few. There will be a living witness to Christ's Coming!

The same celestial signature event which comes before the Day of the Lord is the first thing to happen with the sixth Seal. Just like the Olivet Discourse, we find subsequent to that, the delivery of the Great Multitude into the third Heaven of the Father's presence. This happens before the Scroll is opened and the desolations decreed so long ago are let loose with the seven Trumpets blown by Angels.

This is pretty simple. It is a truth right out of the Bible.
___________________________________

Now you have not refuted anything by pulling a couple of words out of separate contexts and saying they are one and the same. Likewise, you cannot refute the logic of the trail of specific and unique events which ultimately ties 1Co 15:52 to Rev 7:9-17. Time to grow up? Well you said it. This is not milk. The end-times are a real meaty subject with a plethora of events with multiple tracks.

As I have shown time and time again, in God's Wisdom, last is not always last, and nowhere will you find John calling the seventh Trumpet the "Last" Trumpet.
___________________________________

Finally, as to blowing your horn in the Millennium, let it be known that after the Last Trumpet call of God comes yet another Trumpet call by God!

This assembly call is done by the Great Trumpet mentioned in Isaiah and it is the Trumpet call to the surving Remnant and the meek of the other nations to come to the one true God after all the desolations have left the Earth nearly unpopulated. This Trumpet call brings the nations to Mount Zion where the Remnant finally see their Messiah King as the very same Servant Messiah they had pierced and had rejected. (This is also why the Remnant Jews were not taken up at the Rapture; they didn't believe in Jesus then.)

And again, last is not last in God's World. That is a simpleton's argument and it doesn't match the wisdom in God's Word.

 

[revturmoil]

All I can say is that anytime anyone complicates things like you do chances are it's a fabricated mess of contradictions.

If you don't use the original text in Greek to arrive at your conclusions then it's hopeless debating this with you.

There are 5 words for 'last' in the Greek NT. In 1 Cor. 15:52 Paul chose the word "eschatos' for a specific reason. And that reason was to signify the very last trumpet.

The word last in 1 Cor. 15:52 means the last in a series of trumpets.
It is the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

Strong's G2078 - eschatos

1) extreme

a) last in time or in place

last in a series of places

c) last in a temporal succession

2) the last

a) last, referring to time of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth

c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2078&t=KJV

2078.
eschatos es'-khat-os a superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

Paul could have used any of the other four words for 'last' in 1 Cor. 15:52 and they possibly would have not have meant the 'final' trump.

Take a look at the difference...bold and underline is mine.

4070.
perusi per'-oo-si adverb from 4009; the by-gone, i.e. (as noun) last year:--+ a year ago.

4218.
pote pot-eh' from the base of 4225 and 5037; indefinite adverb, at some time, ever:--afore-(any, some-)time(-s), at length (the last), (+ n- )ever, in the old time, in time past, once, when.

5305.
husteron hoos'-ter-on neuter of 5306 as adverb; more lately, i.e. eventually:--afterward, (at the) last (of all).

5598.
omega o'-meg-ah the last letter of the Greek alphabet, i.e. (figuratively) the finality:--Omega.

Can't you see the similarities between the last trump of 1 Cor.15:52 and the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11?

What happens at the last trump of 1 Cor. 15:52 and the resurrection of the dead? We are rewarded correct?

We are rewarded several ways. We rise from the dead or are 'changed' and we put on incorruption and immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What happens at the seventh trumpet? The righteous dead can't be judged until they are risen and that's when we get our reward.

Revelation 11:15 　And the seventh angel sounded...

18 　And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

My conclusion is based on the words in each text, the context, and the events that occur to the dead both at the last trump and the seventh trumpet.

It's not that difficult to figure out as long as one doesn't pervert the scriptures to fit their theology!

Here you are trying to tell me that the last trump happens somewhere at the sixth seal. But the trumpets aren't handed out until...

Revelation 8:1 ¶And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

[teleiosis]

All I can say is that anytime anyone complicates things like you do chances are it's a fabricated mess of contradictions.

I'm so sorry you can't keep up with a rather simple train of specific and unique events.

I can only imagine how complicated Christianity must be for some.

God must be simple so I can understand it. There is God, and that's it... oh, and then there's Jesus, who is the Son of God... but He's not the God... right? The Holy Spirit? He's God too? Oh my God! This is too complicated!​

Or as someone I knew said to a young believer in explaining the Triune God: "Did you really think that an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being would be simple?"

That is pretty much my point with you about the end-times, but I do have a series of questions for you that will get back to the nub of this issue that I will ask one at a time.

1Co 15:50-54 concerns what subject?

A. Inheriting the Kingdom.​

B. Judging the Dead.​

C. God's Wrath.​

D. The time of the Dead.​

Please answer this simple question.

 

[JLB]

I'm so sorry you can't keep up with a rather simple train of specific and unique events.

I can only imagine how complicated Christianity must be for some.

God must be simple so I can understand it. There is God, and that's it... oh, and then there's Jesus, who is the Son of God... but He's not the God... right? The Holy Spirit? He's God too? Oh my God! This is too complicated!​

Or as someone I knew said to a young believer in explaining the Triune God: "Did you really think that an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient being would be simple?"

That is pretty much my point with you about the end-times, but I do have a series of questions for you that will get back to the nub of this issue that I will ask one at a time.

1Co 15:50-54 concerns what subject?

A. Inheriting the Kingdom.​

B. Judging the Dead.​

C. God's Wrath.​

D. The time of the Dead.​

Please answer this simple question.

God is not the author of confusion!

James 3:15-18

15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.


It don't see the pure simple truth in your writing.

I do see, however long complex rambling of human reasoning, peppered with belittling insults that is evidence to all that ...This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic!


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Peace, JLB

 

[teleiosis]

Just because you are blind and can't see, doesn't mean it's not true.

Answer the question I put forward to Mr. Islam will dominate the world: kaoticpolitic and the ones that follow it and I will lead you though the logic you can't seem to grasp.

 

[teleiosis]

You two, JLB and koaticpolitic, want to tell me that 1Co 15:52 equates to Rev 11:15, but you can't answer a simple question about context which would start a whole line of inquiry into this subject.

Is Paul saying this is the last trumpet?
Or is Paul saying this is the last trumpet?

You two want to say yes to the first and insist that Paul is talking about something that none of his audience at that time, or even during his whole life, would even understand (because John didn't write about the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath until decades later), but don't want to allow that Paul is talking about a Jewish subject about which he as intimate knowledge (as a trained Pharisee and official in the Temple Court) and which also has a much deeper theological insight into the end-times.

 

[JLB]

Is Paul saying this is the last trumpet?
Or is Paul saying this is the last trumpet?


Yes brother, Thank you for coming to your senses.


JLB

 

[teleiosis]

I understand your position with its emphasis on <u>the last</u> but you don't understand mine in the second question which emphasizes the <u>Last Trumpet</u>.

As far as "coming to my senses," yes; I never left them.

When Paul wrote 1Co 15:52, no one knew about the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath.

Now answer the question I posed early on the context of 1Co 15:52.

P.S. By the very way you replied, I can tell you didn't read what I wrote. You only comprehended what you wanted to read. I have not changed my conclusion.

 

[JLB]

I understand your position with its emphasis on <u>the last</u> but you don't understand mine in the second question which emphasizes the <u>Last Trumpet</u>.

As far as "coming to my senses," yes; I never left them.

When Paul wrote 1Co 15:52, no one knew about the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath.

Now answer the question I posed early on the context of 1Co 15:52.

P.S. By the very way you replied, I can tell you didn't read what I wrote. You only comprehended what you wanted to read. I have not changed my conclusion.

Revelation 11:15

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.


"The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, = He delivers the kingdom to God the Father,


WHEN, AT THE LAST TRUMPET!

You have been shown this correlation of these two scriptures that mean the same thing, THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME TO THE EARTH!


IT'S OVER, YOU HAVE BEEN PROVED WRONG BY THE SCRIPTURES. PLEASE FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO WITH YOUR TIME!

GOODBY. I REFUSE TO KEEP SHOWING YOU THE SAME ERROR IN YOUR DOCTRINE. I'M DONE!


JLB

 

[teleiosis]

You misspelled "goodby."

Now the Kingdom of God is one of the most nebulous concepts in the Bible! Define its borders, its start date, its completion. The whole concept is rife with seemingly conflicting verses! For you to grasp at straws and make yet another shot in the dark at trying to pigeon hole the whole of end-times with all its diverse actions into something so childishly simple is the epitome of man-centered thinking.

From a Sequence-of-Events point of view, all Paul does is state that the end comes after the Last Trumpet; THEN comes the end!. That is true! Then comes the end. Paul does NOT say the end comes WITH the Last Trumpet!

And when does the handing over happen? Does He hand it over at the end of the one 'seven,' with the Millennium, or at the end of the Millennium with the New Earth and the New Heavens? It doesn't happen at the end of the one 'seven!' That's because BEFORE the Millennium there are two distinct time periods: the 30 and 45 day periods!

But we can know that even if it comes at the end of the Millennium, which is my opinion, it happens after the Last Trumpet. That's what Paul says: AND THEN COMES the end... which end is he speaking of? He doesn't say.

Does Rev 11:15 say that Jesus hands the Kingdom He wins for the Millennium to the Father? NO! He just GOT the world in His Hands! And guess what? It's a fixer-upper at this point after all the desolations God has wrought! Have you not read how healing waters go out from beneath the Temple in the Millennium? Do you not know the prophecy of Hosea 6:2?

In Rev 11:15 Jesus' rule is established. In 1Co 15:54 all rule is abolished - and you want to equate the two? What we have here is yet another difference where you want to make an equation. You want to say a named Trumpet is a numbered Trumpet. You want to say an assembly Trumpet is an announcement Trumpet. You want to say a Trumpet of God is blown by an Angel.

Meanwhile, you cannot stand here and actually discuss the finer points of this entire idea of the end. You can't answer simple questions of context. You cannot allow any other thought to permeate your thinking and weigh it without having a dichotomy erupt in mental confusion. So you revert to "last means last" and cling to your simple idea which somehow, knits together all the divergent threads into one singular day... how nice, or not nice in your case. You shout out your conclusion and sum everything into a little box of your own making.

What you cannot do is equate 1Co 15:52 to 1Th 4:16-17.

You cannot even talk about the relationships between the two.
You cannot allow that to be summed up with 2Th 2:1-2.
You cannot allow any of that to translate to Mt 24:30-31, because that links to Mt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-14.

So don't talk about any of that... and true to form you don't: you just jump to the conclusion you want without any wider discussion. Go away if you want, but this subject remains.

 

[kjhughes]

The Last Trump

Listen:
2/10/06 From God The Father -
A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


Timothy, write these words, these words spoken of and by The Lord God Almighty...

Thus says The Lord: I am come! I have sent out the messengers before My face. Whose is the face and the image of The Lord?!... It is even He I have sent, and He who I am sending. He waits no longer knocking... Enter and reap, oh Son of Man, glorified Son of The Most High.

Thus says The Lord: I am your Savior... There is none other. There is none like Me, save He who is of Me and I of Him, Christ The Lord, Lord of Hosts... The Lord of Sabaoth is His name, Jesus The Gift and Ransom, both Lord and Lamb, Lion and King.


The Spirit is poured, the multitude sent out...

They are Elijah and John...

First baptizing, then a marvelous work working through men...


My witnesses, 144,000.


Yea, even Elijah and Moses shall come prophesying in My name, the coming of The Holy One, called Christ. These are the two lampstands, who shout their proclamation before The Lord of the universe. Who else shall I send? Who will go for Me?! Who will noise in the four corners? Who will shout from the rooftops? Who will go forth, in the name of The Lord?... I shall anoint all who go for Me, with My Spirit and Truth.


Watchmen, go forth... Sound the Trumpet...

The great and terrible Day of The Lord draws nigh!


Repent, and be spared, says The Lord. The Thief has already entered the house. He has but to call out, and you shall be snatched away. Do not wait, little children, for The Master comes to cleanse the house, of all its fornications and adulteries committed against its Creator.


Thus says The Lord...

The wrath of The Lord has come...


His anger is kindled, and will soon be ablaze,
With His judgments raining down from Heaven, upon the whole multitude...

In every nation, in every land, in every corner.


Who can hide from the face of the wrath of God, shown in all the heavens as a raging fire burning in His fury, poured out into the cup of His indignation?... Even so, whosoever calls on the name of The Lord, and accepts The Son of Salvation, shall be spared in that Day... For it comes upon you quickly, says The Lord.

Thus says The Lord: I have trumpeted... You have covered your ears. I will show signs and wonders, the likes of which have never been seen, and never shall be again... Yet you shall cover your eyes. This is but a small thing for The Lord... The judgment on Egypt, a mere twinkle in the vesture of God’s power.

Thus says The Lord God: Judgment is come. Judgment shall fall, fall upon the backs of the wicked and haughty, the high-minded and the oppressor... On the whole multitude, of the whole earth, shall it fall. All shall be broken... Some broken and lifted up, and many more, broken and condemned.

Thus says The Lord: I shall not make a total end of this generation, for the elect’s sake shall I save the redeemed. Before the sixth seal is broken, I shall deal to the hard-hearted a glancing blow... One shall be taken and the other left... Thus is the inheritance of the hard-of-heart, those who continually shout, “Nay! Nay!”... No more!...


The upright in heart shall not be found, nor seen...

Yea, even the dead who sleep, having lived unto The Lord,
Shall be gone from the earth...

The earth shall starve, its light taken...


Darkness is across the land, filling the entire earth.


Thus says The Lord: Your Redeemer, He who has redeemed you, lives! His time has come, His will be done as The Father has purposed from the beginning. He has come, and is come, to gather His own whom I have given Him. They shall rest and give worship, even seven times. Then shall He show His glory, the glory of The Almighty God.


Travesty, great travesty is coming!...



Yet glory for those, who glory in Him who is their Ransom...



And judgment for all, who have denied the power and the glory
Of the one and only Man, who was and is God...

Sent to them, dying, and then exalted to My right hand,
So they may live and not die.




Love The Lord, your God, with your whole heart...

Give it to Him who is The Love, The very Mercy of My heart, which is shown upon you.



My justice is a just judgment...

My love, an all encompassing fire for My beloved creation.



Come to Me, your Father, and be lifted up to Me by way of My Son...

Abiding with Me, forever and ever. Amen.