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The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by teleiosis, May 1, 2012.

  1. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Please tell me sir, are the events of Revelation 19:20 - before or after The return of The Lord in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 -

    14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
     
  2. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Revelation 19:1 is the Great Multitude in Heaven before Jesus and His Army go out to do battle at the final battle / war of the one 'seven' at Armageddon.

    Rev 19:11-21 is preceded by Rev 16:16 which sets the battle to which Jesus goes out to win in Rev 19:11-21.
    Rev 16:16 is preceded by the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16.

    The Harvest of Rev 14:14-16 is when Jesus returns as depicted in 1Th 4:16 and as foretold by Jesus in Mt 24:30.

    The order is:
    1. Rev 14:14-16 / 1Th 4:16 / Mt 24:29-31 / Rev 6:12-14 = Day of the Lord.
    2. Seven Trumpets
    3. Six Bowls - leads to the battle at Armageddon.
    4. Seventh Bowl: Victory - Rev 19:21.
    The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet announcing the third Woe.
    The Rapture happens before God's Wrath falls.
    Your answer: after.
     
  3. JLB

    JLB Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 The Return of The Lord with the saints being gathered to Him

    Notice from this perspective the saints coming with Him

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    The same event in Pauls second letter

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8 The Return of The Lord and the gathering of the saints

    Notice here the descriptive perspective of THE DESTRUCTION OF THE LAWLESS ONE

    • 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.



    Revelation 19:11-14 The Return of The Lord


    11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

    20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


    clothed in fine linen, white and clean, - this is a reference to saints

    see Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



    Mark 13:26-27 The Return of The Lord with the saints


    26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.




    All of these are the same event The Day of The Lord when He Returns and the saints are gathered as well as the enemies are destroyed!

    Why anyone would try to complicate the simple truth of scripture is disturbing.

    What could you possibly gain by confusing people?


    Please repent of this madness!!


    Thanks, JLB
     
  4. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    You're a funny guy JB. Does it disturb you that someone else disagrees with your take on things that you just say are? Unfortunately, there are a lot of different types of eschatologies out there and even among similar types individuals have fundamental disagreements. I will not "repent" and it is not "madness." That is just your emotional response to not being able to control another person's thinking.

    When I make links, it is on around specific and unique events.

    The Day of the Lord has a couple signature signs which are both specific and unique in themselves.
    1. The sun/moon/star event. This can be found in Mt 24:29 and Rev 6:12-14 in the New Testament. A plethora of references for this celestial event can be found in the Old Testament and because in more than one passage, the time is labeled as the Day of the Lord, we can know that as Joel says, the sun/moon/star event comes before the Day of the Lord.
    2. Jesus coming on the clouds to gather believers. This can be found in:
      1. Mt 24:30-31 (with parallels in Mark and Luke)
      2. 1The 4:16-17 and
      3. Rev 14:14-16. Without stretching definitions or descriptions, I can say all three describe one event: Jesus coming on the clouds. Differences between the various accounts are normal for your standard eye-witness account. We should not expect to see perfect word repetition; that would smack of outright copying rather than offering a testimony.
    So, because I link Scripture together by specific and unique events which as a marker to the overall timeline, I can align Scripture with itself.
    Because of the sun/moon/star sign which Jesus gives in both the Olivet Discourse and what Jesus gives to John in Revelation, we can say the Day of the Lord comes with the sixth Seal.

    After the sun/moon/star event (and two earthquakes) and the sealing of the 144,000; a Great Multitude arrives in Heaven and John, who has described all to see in the third Heaven of God the Father's Temple in Heaven, who has numbered the Angels, (John is a very good reporter) - now sees what I think are the souls that Jesus rescues from death and the Great Tribulation. Not to be left to chance, an Elder quizzes John and supplies US with that affirmation: the Great Multitude come out of the (shortened) Great Tribulation.

    After the wheat is safely in the barn of Heaven, fire consumes the tares in the field of this world with the opening of the Scroll (once the seventh Seal is broken) and as Paul puts it, the wicked are subject to the "desolations (which) have been decreed" and God pays back the tribulation they caused us with tribulation (for them).

    Now lets look at your links:

    While you would like to say the Army which follows Christ out to battle at the end of the 'seven' at Armageddon are all the Saints, the manner of dress of the Army in no way prevents a portion of the First Resurrection to being clothed like everyone else in the First Resurrection.

    The reference to fine linen, white and clean, is a description of their salvation in new immortal and imperishable bodies. You do not have any specific and unique description or event which says those who follow the Lamb (the 144,000 as Rev 14:4 dictates) wherever He goes- are all the Saints.

    No, not all, not Rev 19.

    The Day of the Lord when He returns was covered in the account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 in Rev 14:14-16. This happens before the avenging Angel of v.17 goes to supply more blood on the Day of the Lord Wrath AND ALL of the Bowl Judgments. The sixth Bowl makes way for Armageddon to have all the world's assembled armies in one place. The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord after the shortened Great Tribulation and before ANY of the Trumpet or Bowl Judgments.

    As far as 2Th 2:4-8, the Man of Lawlessness' destruction is sure and will come about. The Greek verb tense indicates that and the English says "will" - indicating the future. We know from Revelation, written after Paul's letters, describes a lengthy process of destruction which ultimately is completed only after the one 'seven' is over when the ant-Christ is thrown alive into the Lake of Fire.
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Time for a closer look at this...

    The "great multitude" shown in Rev.7 is given along with future Millennial time events. Christ's army of Rev.19 will include the 'asleep' saints that had died, as also some that will die during the great tribulation in our near future. Yet many of Christ's Church will still be alive on earth at His coming, as His Church will go through the tribulation, which is what the subject of Rev.7 is about, i.e., those 'sealed' by God in prep for the tribulation (that sealing linked to events in Rev.9). The "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent the sealed among the Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. The 144,000 represent the sealed believers from the seed of Israel, of the tribes mentioned (some like the tribe of Dan omitted).

    When the time of Armageddon happens, the "one seven" of Dan.9:27 will have come to an end. The battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial is when God's plan for this present world is finished. That is also when the 7th Trumpet will sound, as Rev.11 reveals.


    The Armageddon event of Rev.16 is the same timing of Christ's coming with His army of Rev.19, so it's impossible for Rev.19 to 'precede' the same event mentioned in Rev.16.

    The Rev.14:14-20 event is the same timing reference when Christ returns with His army of saints to defeat Satan's host on the earth, on the last day of this present world. It is 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing also. Thus it also is linked with the battle of Armageddon, even though Armageddon isn't specifically mentioned in Rev.14.


    That's out of order. The true order is:

    1. 6th Trumpet; 6th Vial events; Rev.16:16; Ezekiel 38;

    2. Rev.14:14-20; Rev.16:16-17; Rev.19:11-21; Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Rev.6:12-17; Rev.11:13-15; Rev.1:7; Jude 1:14; Ezekiel 39; Isaiah 24-25; 7th Trumpet-3rd Woe; 7th Vial.


    Nope. Christ's coming and our gathering to Him will occur on the very last day of this present world. That's when He returns, and that's also the day He pours out His wrath upon the wicked; it's His coming "as a thief" on "the day of the Lord".

    The "day of the Lord" is not only a one hour period of judgment on the last day of this world, it also includes His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, as a day to God is as a thousand years. Thusly, when that "day of the Lord" comes, it means His immediate judgment upon the earth and gathering of His and the start of His thousand years reign.
     
  6. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Revelation 11:15 Heralding The Return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

    15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

    1 Corinthians 15:21-24

    21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.


    When? at the last seventh trump!!! 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

    Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This physical return of Jesus Christ is The Common Denominator in all these verse's. When He comes with His army of saints as well as angels to put an end to all rule and authority that is not of His Kingdom.

    Revelation 19:7&14

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    14 And the armies in heaven,clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.


    The Last trump is clearly the Seventh Trump!


    Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4-5, 1 Corinthinthians 15, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 19 are all about the Return of Jesus.


    This is the final word on this subject.

    THIS IS MY FINAL WORD ON THIS SUBJECT.

    NO MORE WILL I DISCUSS THIS WITH YOU!




    Thanks, JLB
     
  7. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    1. Rev 11:15 does not say it heralds the return of Christ. It celebrates His Rule, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

    2. Finish 1Co 15:21-24 -> 1Co 15:25-26 --> 25 For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. This happens after the Millennium and the Second Resurrection.

    3. Everyone is arrayed in fine linen, white and clean - but not everybody goes to Armageddon... Read Rev 19:1 and Rev 19:6 again - there you will find evidence for the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17 cheering on our Hero and HIs Army. Meanwhile, the fifth Seal Martyrs, also given white robes, still await being made alive! For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints. It in no way dictates everyone is assembled, just that those that are, are Saints. The Firstfruits are of the same type as the Harvest. Again: not everybody goes to war. Do you really suppose that God needs billions and billions of saved souls to take on hundreds of millions of the assembled wicked? Did not God only need 300 to take on the Midians with Gideon?

    4. Rev 11:15 is not about the return of Chirst. Revelation chapter 19 is a continuation of the linear narrative of the end, starting right before the end of the one 'seven' previously shown in Rev 16:16 - Armageddon is the last battle. In Rev 14:14-16, Christ returns on the clouds of Heaven like Mt 24:30-31, 1Th 4:16-17 and 1Co 15:51-52 say. Then comes God's Wrath. The final portion is Armageddon set up in Rev 16:16. Rev 19:11-21 finishes the battle story introduced in chapter 16. Rev chapters 20-22 take us into the future beyond the one 'seven' with the Millennium and even beyond that to the New Earth and the New Heaven.

    The Last Trumpet, God's Trumpet that He uses to assemble us up to Heaven - is not the seventh Trumpet of His Wrath blown by an Angel calling down desolations upon the Earth.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Rev 11:15
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
    (KJV)

    Guess you missed that verb part of "are become" there, which involves all Scripture about 'how' the kingdoms of this world will become those of The Lord and His Christ.


    That time which He "must reign" IS... the coming Millennium; the "thousand years" of Rev.20. At the end of that reign is when the last enemy, the devil, will be destroyed.



    Jude 1 quotes Enoch as saying Christ will come with ten thousands of His saints, which is an expression for an undefineable number. Those of His saints still alive on earth when He comes will be changed, and joined with all His saints He brings with Him, and the whole manifest upon this earth as His Church. The "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is shown upon the earth per Rev.20:9, not up in Heaven.



    Yes it is. No need for a direct statement there, since the final 7th Trumpet is given to show WHEN all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Lord and His Christ.


    That's true. The events of Christ's coming in Rev.19 are hard-linked to His coming on the 7th Vial in Rev.16, which is linked to the battle of Armageddon.


    You can read more about that event in Joel 3, it's linked to the "day of the Lord" timing and events of the OT prophets. Remember the Old Testament prophets??? They're part of God's Word too. The time of His coming with the clouds and His wrath occur concurrently.


    Armageddon occurs on the "day of the Lord" too. That's what God's wrath upon the wicked on this earth on the last day is about. That's true that Rev.20 is for after Christ's return and our gathering, after the tribulation, and after the Armageddon event. But not everything written in Rev.22 happens after the events of Rev.20.


    [quote]The Last Trumpet, God's Trumpet that He uses to assemble us up to Heaven - is not the seventh Trumpet of His Wrath blown by an Angel calling down desolations upon the Earth.
    [/quote]

    Firstly, we are not gathered to go off this earth to Heaven. The heavenly is coming here, upon this earth, and everyone is going to see it (Isaiah 25). We shall be gathered with the resurrected saints to where Jesus is coming, and that will be on earth, at Jerusalem. On that same day is when His wrath upon the wicked will occur, the defeat of His enemies upon this earth with the Armageddon event. Ezekiel 38-39 gives more info about that defeat, and who makes up the armies on earth that God will destroy, presenting God's supper for the fowls dining on the dead. The valley of Hamongog will be the result of that wrath from God on that day.
     
  9. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    The proof is with the first post. You can't argue the facts, so you argue on the basis of 'you say so.'
    You are the last to lecture on the meaning of words... "are become" is not Christ's coming? LOL.

    The Last Trumpet is blown with the breaking of the sixth Seal; the events which unfold with that include the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
    First to be inducted to the ranks of Heaven: the 144,000. Then the Great Multitude, heard twice in Rev 19, in Heaven, cheering on Christ and His Army, if first seen.
    This order is preserved in Revelation 14:4-16; first the 144,000 -who are tens of thousands (you are wrong again) and then the Harvest.
    • Both happen before any of the Wrath of God goes forth with the Trumpets in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses.
    • Both happen before any of the Wrath of God goes forth with the last Bowl Judgments (the revealed third Woe) in the account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 inclusive.
    The burden of proof has been met.
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Don't know what you mean by that. Rev.11 is about 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe events which culminates in the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period immediately prior to the 15th verse, showing the kingdoms of this world having become those of The Lord and His Christ. Doesn't take a lot of common sense to grasp that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is the turning point between Satan's control of those kingdoms and then they're becoming under control by Jesus because of His return. The verses right after Rev.11:15 also point to that simple fact. So the basis of your argument that the 7th Trumpet doesn't show Christ's coming just doesn't have any weight behind it.


    The events of the 7 Seals are not in exact order. Should be easy to know that since the first event our Lord shows there is about a rider upon a 'white' horse, and the 7th Seal isn't opened until Rev.8. The Seals are given to impart information about the 7 signs of the end which our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24 and Mark 13). They do not represent the exact order of the 7 signs. But the last 3 Trumpets are given as a 'definite' order, which is why 3 Woes are attached to them. If one just keys on the events, the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is aligned with the 6th Seal and 7th Vial events. Yet the 6th Seal has one event which is actually 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, that of the untimely figs being cast down to the earth, which is tribulation timing. Thus it's best to remember that the main purpose of opening the 7 Seals is to impart information about the 7 signs of the end.


    Firstly, the Rev.19:1-9 verses are a future look in time, AFTER Christ has returned, for it mentions the judgment upon the "great whore" as being past. That's why the great multitude there is saying Alleluia, because The Lord "reigneth" (is reigning). Then starting at Rev.19:11 John is given another vision, the one of Christ's coming with His saints which is prior to His time of reign, and at the time of judgment upon the "great whore". Thus the Rev.19:11-21 events actually occur PRIOR to the Rev.19:1-9 events. Rev.19:10 acts as a verse of separation between the two visions.


    That's just confusion, all there is to it. You're not really paying attention to the time markers in the events in Revelation, which is what I showed with how you've got the Rev.19 event timing wrong about the great multitude. What you're heeding is a pre-wrath rapture, which is men's doctrine of getting the Revelation events out of order. You clearly have yet to understand those time markers within the events.

    At Rev.14:1, Jesus is standing upon Mount Zion (Sion), and that's on earth, meaning after His return. It is a heavenly vision because when Christ returns, the heavenly is going to be revealed here, on earth, because of the change to our "spiritual body". THAT is when the redemption by Christ occurs, and not before. Even Rev.14:8 reveals that Babylon has already fallen according to the timeline, meaning her judgment time is past at that point. The 144,000 of Rev.14 is about the elect of the tribes of Israel, as per Rev.7. But in Rev.15, all other believers-overcomers are represented, like the great multitude, i.e., those of Rev.7:9 forward. And yet, both Rev.14 & 15 give events of judgment prior to Christ's return in the latter parts of those two chapters.

    What this reveals is that we have to pay very close attention to the time markers given with the events of our Lord's Book of Revelation. It's because the timelines in it jump back and forth in time very quickly, often between one or two verses. Basically, it means we need to go very slowly in study of Revelation, and careful to not interject men's traditions while doing that.
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, teleiosis.

    1. And just WHO do you think the "Son of Man" is?! Isn't it Yeshua` that you call "Jesus?" So, if HE is sending His messengers (angels) with a sound of a trumpet, how do we know HE didn't just blow the trumpet, sending them out?! It's LUDICROUS for you to make such a distinction between 1 Thes. 4:16 and Matt. 24:31! Can you say, "Reaching?"

    2. No, not all shofar signals were warning signals; however, the final seven ARE! They are AIR RAID SIRENS! And, the first one doesn't stop when the second one starts! And the second and the first ones don't stop when the third one starts!

    By the way, you're talking to someone who OWNS a shofar and knows the four sounds to blow (not very good, yet, mind you, but I'm still learning)! There's the tekiah, a short blast; the shevariym, 3 short blasts in succession; the teruah, 9 quick, succession tones; and the tekiah hagadolah, a long, loud blast. All of the calls, whether a call for assembly, a call for war, a celebration trumpet, or a warning siren, are combinations of these basic four sounds. Even the long complex combinations that are played on the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, are combinations of these four. There's the silver trumpets blown on Yoviyl (Jubilee), and shofars made out of rams' horns and kudu antelopes' horns called Yemenite shofars. I have a 2-foot kudu antelope horn. I'm not as good as my rabbi, but I can blow it in celebration during our praise services.

    3. Right. "Teereoo" (as I would transliterate it, an "ee" for eta, an "e" for epsilon, and an "oo" for omega) simply means "to guard" or "to keep." It's used for "keeping" the commandments (John 15:10), "keeping" Yeshua`s disciples from evil (John 17:15), a jailor for "keeping" his prisoners safe (Acts 12:5, 6; 16:23), "keeping" the unity of the Spirit (Eph. 4:3), "keeping" oneself pure (1 Tim. 5:22), "keeping" the faith (2 Tim. 4:7), being "kept" from the hour of temptation (Rev. 3:10), "keeping" one's garments (Rev. 16:15), and many more.

    Now, I ask you this: Why does the so-called "church" get "raptured out" of this world, but the "remnant" stay on the earth the whole time?! What makes the "church" better than the "remnant?!" I DO NOT believe that you can support that from Scripture at all!

    Oh, and your statement, "We are in the barn of Heaven while the wicked burn in the field of this world," is wrongly applying the parables of Matthew 13. (Sigh.) Look at it again:

    Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    ...
    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    KJV

    Thus, this is a parable about the KINGDOM! And, it is at the END of this "world" (Greek: aioonos = "age")! It's not about NOW; it's about the future at the END of the Millennium! All one needs to do is do a comparison between Rev. 19:11-21:4 and 1 Cor. 15:20-28. This doesn't happen at the time BEFORE the Millennium; it happens AFTER the Millennium at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, just as Yeshua` hands over the KINGDOM to His Father! "The Barn," if you will, is the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22!

    So, one should NOT be using this parable as though it was talking about THIS time period in which we are now living! It's a parable about the Millennium!

    Furthermore, as far as the "church" being contrasted with the "remnant," you would do better to stick to Scriptures on that one:

    Romans 11:1-32
    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    KJV


    Believers in the Messiah Yeshua`, including those who identify themselves with a "church," are a PART of the Remnant! You CAN'T SPLIT US UP!

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    KJV


    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV


    Modern believers somewhat flippantly say, "we are IN CHRIST," without ever thinking about what that MEANS! Do you understand that "Christ" means "Messiah?" And, do you understand what the "Messianic" prophecies meant to the Jews?! We Gentiles (Goyim) are GRAFFED INTO the Olive Tree of the Messiah's Kingdom! And, the Jews WILL BE graffed into that same Olive Tree, whether today through the ministries of the Gentiles to them, or when Yeshua` returns and "seeing is believing!" ALL ISRA'EL SHALL BE SAVED!

    And, when they believe, they don't become a part of the "Church"; they are graffed into the Messiah's KINGDOM, as we are! However, it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST, not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!" It's THEIR own Olive Tree! THEY are the "natural branches!" Gentiles are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God!" Gentiles are "branches of a wild olive tree graffed in contrary to nature!" Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about the household of God and their own status within that household! Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about their Jewish roots!

    Who is a subset of whom?! It's not that the believing Jews are a subset of the "church"; it's that believers, Jew or Gentile, are subsets of the Olive Tree, the Messiah's Kingdom! The SAME Kingdom over which David ruled and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled! Yeshua` is rightly called "the Son of David!" His lineages, recorded in both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, prove that He is David's Heir to his throne
    !
     
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I pretty much concur with that Retrobyter, except the part often left out about the ten lost tribes of Israel. Many in Christ's Church today who think they are Gentiles are going to wake up at Christ's coming and realize they have a heritage among the ten lost tribes of Israel, a branch of Israel completely separate from the Jews of the house of Judah. Thus many Jews are going to be shocked by that too.
     
  13. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Retrobyter wrote -

    Modern believers somewhat flippantly say, "we are IN CHRIST," without ever thinking about what that MEANS! Do you understand that "Christ" means "Messiah?" And, do you understand what the "Messianic" prophecies meant to the Jews?! We Gentiles (Goyim) are GRAFTED INTO the Olive Tree of the Messiah's Kingdom! And, the Jews WILL BE grafted into that same Olive Tree, whether today through the ministries of the Gentiles to them, or when Yeshua` returns and "seeing is believing!" ALL ISRA'EL SHALL BE SAVED!

    And, when they believe, they don't become a part of the "Church"; they are grafted into the Messiah's KINGDOM, as we are! However, it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST, not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!" It's THEIR own Olive Tree! THEY are the "natural branches!" Gentiles are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God!" Gentiles are "branches of a wild olive tree grafted in contrary to nature!" Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about the household of God and their own status within that household! Gentile believers have MUCH to learn about their Jewish roots!

    Who is a subset of whom?! It's not that the believing Jews are a subset of the "church"; it's that believers, Jew or Gentile, are subsets of the Olive Tree, the Messiah's Kingdom! The SAME Kingdom over which David ruled and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled! Yeshua` is rightly called "the Son of David!" His lineages, recorded in both Matthew 1 and Luke 3, prove that He is David's Heir to his throne
    !



    However, it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST, not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!"

    You are a little mixed up or just plain ignorant!

    Let's go to scripture -

    Genesis 17:1-2

    1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old,the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."


    Fact # 1 - Abram was a Gentile.

    Fact # 2 - The Lord that made covenant became flesh. His name is Jesus.

    Fact # 3 - We are partakers of that covenant, "in Christ".


    If you want to get technical, Abraham was the first member of the church or "assembly" which that is what the children of Israel are referred to in the"so called" Old Testament.


    Just thought you might want to consider these facts, before you make another comment like "it was a JEWISH KINGDOM FIRST" or "not some nebulous, no-affiliation "Church!"


    Thanks, JLB
     
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Got to agree with that too, since the term 'Jew' comes from the sole tribe of Judah only, and became applied to the tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with Judah's southern kingdom to make up the "house of Judah" per God's Word. The northern kingdom of the "house of Israel" per God's Word never was a part of the Jews. And Abraham was a Hebrew, descended from Eber from which the word Hebrew is derived.
     
  15. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Deuteronomy 26:5

    And you shall answer and say before the Lord your God: 'My father was a Syrian, about to perish, and he went down to Egypt and dwelt there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous.
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That was because of where Abraham's ancestors lived, in the land Ur of the Chaldee. Per Gen.11 Abram (Abraham) was descended from Eber, and Eber is where the name Hebrew came from. You'll find Laban and Bethuel were also called 'Syrian', yet they all were of Shem's people per Gen.11 descended from Eber, and thus all Hebrews.
     
  17. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Retro:
    1. Your screaming rebuke is totally unwarranted. I know who the Son of Man is... and in your rebuke you state what you originally said wasn't possible! You say Jesus blows the Trumpet. That's my point. The Last Trumpet is one of God's Trumpets. Originally, you said He would have a bugler blow it. Perhaps, like the Scroll's seven Seals, no one else CAN blow it!

    2. Again, you affirm my point that the Last Trumpet is an assembly Trumpet. It "CALLS" us together. It is not an air-raid siren warning us to flee into the rocks and caves. Oh, and about your contention (without any Biblical support) that all seven Trumpets of God's Wrath blown by Angels are continuous notes -- since the first Woe last five months by itself, those first four Angels must have one heck of a set of lungs...

    3. You have your own way of spelling which is unlike ANY other Greek and Hebrew scholar or lexicon, or concordance I can find. Now while there are differences in how the Greek and Hebrew are transliterated into English; I am wary of someone who is so far outside of the mainstream to take it solely on your authority. Likewise, I don't trust YOUR definitions which come without cited source. I have a paper on tereo ek, I'll post it by itself later. Rev 3:10 does not provide the blanket coverage you Post-Trib/Last Day of the one 'seven' eschatology adherents need to make your eschatology work.

    4. As far as the Remnant goes, you might be like Veteran and other Post-Tribs that seek a Heaven here on Earth. I don't think you've fully thought this through. Maybe I'll post something else on this side issue in another post.

    Likewise JLB and Veteran: You two are enmeshed in silly side issues and neither of you, along with Retro, have any plausible counter to the original argument I posted which logically shows through Scripture and the linking of specific and unique events in future Bible prophecy that the Last Trumpet sounds with the sixth Seal and because it comes before all of the Trumpets of God's Wrath (sounded by Angels) cannot be the seventh Trumpet.
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You mean the 'meek' shall not... inherit... THE EARTH?

    Don't know if you just forgot that is written, or you're so bent on trying to win an argument for argument's sake that it caused you to forget that, but either way, it reveals the sad state of Biblical ignorance you're in.



    You're argument that Paul's "last trump" is not the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 has been completely... destroyed! Instead of continuing to make a fool of yourself with those kind of words, you would do better to actually get back into God's Word for yourself and study It, instead of listening to those whom you've been listening to.
     
  19. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.
     
  20. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Yeah Veteran, the meek will inherit the earth because the proud will be destroyed. Don't you know that after all the desolations God sends down, ten people will take the hem of one Jew and ask that he take them to his God?

    Rev 11 doesn't destory my argument; you are delusional. Before Rev 11's seventh Trumpet comes the Day of the Lord at the sixth Seal. The Day of the Lord comes after the SHORTENED Great Tribulation. You haven't destroyed anything. You can't refute the connections I've made; you haven't even tried.

    JLB: trying to be insulting? Very Christian of you to use Bible verses as a club.
     
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