The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

[teleiosis]

Do you have anything to say from Scripture rather than what you make up?

 

[revturmoil]

Do you have anything to say from Scripture rather than what you make up?

Most of the replies on this thread tell you that you are the one making things up!

 

[teleiosis]

None of the replies on this thread can comment on the central line of logic which proves the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet from the original post.

A secondary proof can be found in Rev 14-16 where the Harvest comes before the final battle at Armageddon.

 

[revturmoil]

None of the replies on this thread can comment on the central line of logic which proves the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet from the original post.

A secondary proof can be found in Rev 14-16 where the Harvest comes before the final battle at Armageddon.

The central logic of this is that the last trump, the trump of God, and the seventh trumpet are the last in a series of trumpets.

Simple, logical, unfabricated, and the truth!

 

[teleiosis]

It's really hard to discuss in ordered, logical argument, complex Biblical issues to people who go on childlike, watered down, baby's milk - man logic.

You, like many others who cling to a simple "last day" concept of the Rapture, can no more defend your position from Scripture other than to recite the mantra of your simple belief that "last means last." Spare me the simple explanation via your Strong's Concordance; as far as study goes, all that shows me is that you haven't done any past scratching the surface.

You cannot and simply will not examine Scripture, in context, to follow the trail which shows that the Last Trumpet, one of three blown by God to assemble the Elect, happens concurrently with the unfolding Day of the Lord of the sixth Seal - and as such is absolutely precluded from being one and the same as one of seven Trumpets, blown by Angels, which announce God's Wrath to the unbelieving, and unrepentant world!

A secondary proof of Revelation chapters 14-16 show that the Harvest of Saints, which includes the Rapture, happens before the final battle at Armageddon.

And again, what you have is nothing. It IS simple, and what you contend - aside from the Bible, is simply wrong. Don't tell me about truth when what you offer for truth is nothing more than your uninformed opinion - like saying "Islam will dominate the world," which is your avatar - which is also Biblically wrong and not correct.

 

[revturmoil]

It's really hard to discuss in ordered, logical argument, complex Biblical issues to people who go on childlike, watered down, baby's milk - man logic.

You, like many others who cling to a simple "last day" concept of the Rapture, can no more defend your position from Scripture other than to recite the mantra of your simple belief that "last means last." Spare me the simple explanation via your Strong's Concordance; as far as study goes, all that shows me is that you haven't done any past scratching the surface.

You cannot and simply will not examine Scripture, in context, to follow the trail which shows that the Last Trumpet, one of three blown by God to assemble the Elect, happens concurrently with the unfolding Day of the Lord of the sixth Seal - and as such is absolutely precluded from being one and the same as one of seven Trumpets, blown by Angels, which announce God's Wrath to the unbelieving, and unrepentant world!

A secondary proof of Revelation chapters 14-16 show that the Harvest of Saints, which includes the Rapture, happens before the final battle at Armageddon.

And again, what you have is nothing. It IS simple, and what you contend - aside from the Bible, is simply wrong. Don't tell me about truth when what you offer for truth is nothing more than your uninformed opinion - like saying "Islam will dominate the world," which is your avatar - which is also Biblically wrong and not correct.

I see that you can't handle being proven wrong. Your theory has been debunked so now your resorting to personnal attacks.
I usually leave forums for a while because of undesirables like you. And usually when I come back, people like you are banned!
But in this case I'll stick around a little longer just to be a sliver in in your back side and to add a little more fuel to the fire.

You actually believe that the day of the Lord unfolds at the sixth seal? It's impressive to see how misled you are.

You place the Day of the Lord at the sixth seal to support your theory that the last trump isn't the seventh trumpet. So the question should really be, "when does the Day of the Lord occur?"

I say that the Day of the Lord occurs at Revelation 14.

JESUS SAID,

Matthew 24:29 　Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
By Jesus own words I conclude that the 'rapture' occurs after the tribulation.

Jesus said that he returns in the clouds to gather his elect.

Revelation 14:14 　And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 　And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the
cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 　And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now look here...
Joel 3:12 　Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 　Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 　Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Now observe something...

Joel 2:30 　And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12 　And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 　And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
In the sixth seal the sun is turned black as sackcloth and the moon into blood. In Joel
the day of the Lord is near and what appears to be the same celestial event (sun and moon) occurs before the day of the Lord.

But Jesus say's this event occurs immediately after the tribulation!,
Matthew 24:29 　Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So is there a biblical contradiction here?
If Jesus say's this celestial event occurs immediately after the tribulation, how could the sun be darkened and the moon be turned to blood as stated in the sixth seal?
This appears to be a contradiction and what you are doing to counter this delima is "change the time the Day of the LORD occurs!"...Just like the pre-tribulationist! The prophecy experts have traditionally speculated that the celestial events of Rev. 14 and Rev 6 are describing the same event. The problem is that scripture establishes that these two celestial events occur at different times in the book of Revelation! One occurs first at the 6th seal and another occurs when the sickle is thrust in in Chapter 14!

Now back to the issue were having with the last trump.
Matthew 24:29 　Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
Matthew 24:31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
My conclusion-
The trumpet of Mathew 24 is the last trump of God and the same as the seventh trumpet which occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION and just prior to the Day of the Lord!

 

[sam]

One has to keep in mind that the ‘seals’ doesn’t denote any time compartments. On the breaking of each seal John is brought to see the Lamb of God is in control of things happening and things to happen. The most important message John has to convey to the saints in tribulation is that Jesus Christ is the Lord in control of any thing happening and anything to happen.

So on breaking the seal six, John is shown what all things will happen towards the end. What John has seen on the breaking of seal 5 was not anything which happen after the things described on the breaking of 4[sup]th[/sup] seal or 3[sup]rd[/sup] seal. It is a cry which started from the time of Habel’s death. (Gen ) John was brought to see and hear the cry of those slaughtered because of their faith in God at the breaking of seal 5. Anyhow in a sequential process, at the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal John is brought to see what is going to happen in answer to the cry heard at the opening of 5[sup]th[/sup] seal.

In the same manner, before John was brought to see the great tribulation and the wrath of God, he was brought to see the heavenly program of saints being sealed and what it would be the fate of those who are steadfast to the faith in Lord and they facing tribulation for his name’s sake.

Do you suppose, the catastrophe described following the opening of the sixth seal, is to to happen before the incidents described specific with trumpets 1 to 6?
We can very well understand that at the breaking of the sixth seal, John was brought to see a miniature picture of what is going to happen at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

[teleiosis]

Two parts here: sam and kaoticpolitc.

sam: The "Seals" are part of a larger narrative which begins when John is brought 'up there' in chapter 4. He spends chapters 4 & 5 describing like a good news reporter everything he sees and hears. John has a writing kit. (Rev 10:4)

One of the articles that John reports upon is the Scroll. The Scroll is central to the linear narrative which involves Revelation chapters 4 through 11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13, which is included as part of the break in the action when John is told not to write what the Angel and the seven Thunders said.

In the Courtly setting of God the Father's Temple in Heaven, only Jesus can open the Scroll; He does this by breaking the Seals. (Rev 5:9)

In a moment of epiphany reading about scrolls from antiquity, it hit me that the Scroll that no one but Jesus can open is where the Father has stored the desolations that He has decreed from so long ago - Dan 9:26.

So the Seals prepare the world for the final climax in the struggle man has had with God since the Fall and brings the world up to a fever pitch or boil for the final crescendo which ultimately leads to the Millennium of peace which will be Christ's rule on the Earth.

The first four Seals mirror events which Jesus said would have to take place before the end. There is a perfect symmetry between Mt 24:5-7 and Lk 21:11 with the four Horsemen which are also figured in Zechariah's vision as 'spirits at work in the world,' Zec 6:5. I think the first four Seals have already been broken. In the last 30 years, we've had a plethora of new diseases suddenly spring up (the fourth Living Creature to call forth the fourth Horseman, or spirit, was like an eagle, and one of the attributes of an eagle is his speed - and we've certainly seen a rapid onset of this twist in medical science where crossover diseases make possible the prophecy that 'wild animals will kill us.'

The point of the Seals is then to open the Scroll.
The point of the Scroll is to store God's Wrath - Dan 9:26.

The Seals must be broken so as to allow the Scroll to be opened, which then unleashes God's Wrath with the first Trumpet (blood and fire - 1/3rd of the Earth) The seventh Trumpet follows some time later! (The first Woe - fifth Trumpet - lasts five months just by itself.)

So for you "sam" to say the sixth Seal shows what is going to happen at the sounding of the "7th trumpet" does not comport with the nature of John's linear narrative in the book of Revelation.

The sudden arrival of a multitude of people too large to be the Jewish nation alone (and excluding from that designation by the definition that they come from EVERY nation, tribe, language and people) coming on the heels of the specific and unique sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star event - then aptly describes the coming rescue from the Great Tribulation which we seek! And such a conclusion is reinforced by one of the twoenty-four Elders in his question and answer to John: "They come out of the Great Tribulation."

Thus we see a perfect harmony between the sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29 with Rev 6:12-14 and the subsequent Rapture of the few remaining Elect to survive the Great Tribulation in Mt 24:31 with their arrival at the barn of Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

Because this vision of Jesus coming on the clouds of Mt 24:30 to pick up the Elect marries perfectly with 1Th 4:16-17, and this rescue of God's people was the context of Paul's subsequent letter to the Corinthians in 1Co 15:52 - we can say that the sixth Seal is when the Last Trumpet will be blown.

But as the sixth Seal comes before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath, and that comes before the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath - and we will be rescued before God's Wrath as Paul says in 1th 1:10, and by the example of Noah and Job where both were rescued before God's Wrath came - we can know that the Last Trumpet cannot be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


kaoticprofit: By your very name and avatar I rebuke you. .

You actually believe that the day of the Lord unfolds at the sixth seal? It's impressive to see how misled you are.

Or how you are misled, or would misled others? Is this like your notion that Islam will dominate the world when the Bible says the King of the North will gain the whole world (and lose his soul)?

The Day of the Lord is preceded by the sun/moon/star event. You said so yourself in quoting Joel 2:30!

What happens subsequent to the Day of the Lord's appearance for the Jew, and that was the target audience of Joel 3:12-14, is God's Wrath. The Day of the Lord will not be a happy one for Israel! God said so in Amos 5:18!

I say that the Day of the Lord occurs at Revelation 14.

Well you can say that and as the coming of Jesus on the clouds is described three times in the New Testament at Mt 24:29-31, 1th 4:16-17, and Rev 14:14-16 - I would agree with you, not because you are so intelligent as to get one thing right, but because it is IN the Bible!

So in accordance to your own thinking - Rev 14:14-16 comes BEFORE the final battle of Armageddon in chapter 16 - Revelation chapters 13 through 16 inclusive being one long vision of just the one 'seven.' This is the second major parallel account of the book of Revelation and it stands in detail to the broad overview of the end-times started in Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive) which also brought us to the end of the one 'seven' at the end of chapter 11. The two accounts marry up perfectly at that point. Indeed, the avenging Angel of Rev 14:17 is part of the first Trumpet's blood and fire. He too has a sickle, but unlike the Harvest of Saints up to the clouds to return to Heaven, his efforts to harvest the crop involve the wicked and they are crushed in God's winepress to supply the blood of the Day of the Lord.

Between Rev 14:14-16 and Rev 14:17 we see Rescue before Wrath. This break is like night and day, and is much like the rest of the Day of the Lord which is a complete study in opposites! The sun is darkened at noon; in the evening it will be light! This special day, which is only known to the Father, comes at some unspecified time after the midpoint abomination - whenever the Father deems that the appropriate number of martyrs have been added to the fifth Seal holding area under the Altar in His Temple in Heaven - and also before all the Elect are eliminated from this Earth because there will be living witnesses to Jesus' parousia.

Like the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive), where Rescue comes and then Wrath - in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 (inclusive) we not only see the build-up to the midpoint abomination of Mt 24:15 in the first part of chapter 13, but we see the revealed abomination in Rev 13:14-15 and God reveals the reason why the Great Tribulation is so terrible for the Elect with the two laws that go into effect at the midpoint abomination of Dan 9:27 with those onerous laws we are told to NOT obey (and so die) which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever! (That makes the Great Tribulation a specific and unique event in the annuals of mankind.)

So since the Harvest of Revelation 14 comes before Armageddon, and it is with the battle of Armageddon that the seventh Trumpet Wrath is finished with God's desolations here on earth - the Last Trumpet cannot be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

the day of the Lord is near and what appears to be the same celestial event (sun and moon) occurs before the day of the Lord.
But Jesus say's this event occurs immediately after the tribulation!,

Of course you silly soul! Both are true because they are both in the Bible!

What you lack in understanding is because you define the "Tribulation Period" as being the whole of the one 'seven!'
That is wrong!

The Great Tribulation only begins at the midpoint abomination of Mt 24:15 which is the same as Rev 13:14-15.
The Great Tribulation of Mt 24:21 is then shortened! - Mt 24:22 The word Matthew uses is an agricultural word to "cut off" which is identical to our use of the word "dock" which as a verb can mean to remove the tail of an animal. So the Great Tribulation as a "tale" is then abruptly, and unexpectedly cut short. It does not last the rest of the one 'seven!' No one could survive being hunted to worship the beast during God's desolations nor could anyone do without food, water, and shelter for three and a half years when they can't buy or sell!

So - the sun/moon/star event DOES come BEFORE Jesus' parousia on the clouds of Heaven: part of the Day of the Lord
AND - the it comes AFTER the Great Tribulation! Indeed, it is what abruptly cuts it short.

So for you kaoticpolitic to insist that Last Trumpet is the seventh Trumpet because you "KNOW" when the Day of the Lord comes - on the last day of the one 'seven!' - (which no one can know, so I find it really idiotic that some people insist upon this kind of eschatology) - is refuted once again.

And once more I will point out that you cannot refute the logic of the original post which proves the Last Trumpet calling us home, is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

 

[revturmoil]

You will never change your mind because you can't admit your wrong. You have a mountain of evidence against you yet you don't care. The definition of the word last alone debunks your theory.
The following verse obviously isn't part of your hermeneutic.
Isaiah 28:10 　For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

In sumary:
The word last in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is Strong's #　2078 and it has a specific meaning which can be proven.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 　For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul chose...
1)
extreme
a)
last in time or in place
last in a series of places
c)
last in a temporal succession
2)
the last
a)
last, referring to time
of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
c)
of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest
2078.
eschatos es'-khat-os a superlative probably from 2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):--ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
Paul had a choice of 5 words to use for last. In "the last trump" phrase he chose the same one that is used in the following verses. I doubt it'll matter to you but the use of this word alone absolutely debunks you theory!
John 6:39 　And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 　And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 20:16 　So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.Matthew 9:35 　¶And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Revelation 2:8 　¶And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 22:13 　I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Now if you can't believe that the word Paul used for last means last then you are...misled!

The word eschatos is without question the best word Paul could have used to truly indicate 'LAST'!
Now take a look at the choice of words he had...

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=last

The question really is...

When is the day of the Lord?

Pretribbers put it at Rev.4:1. And you at Rev.6.

Joel 1:15 　Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

The day of the Lord is probably a short period of time. Probably no more than 3 months and as short as 45 days. A host of things occur during this period.

I guess you didn't see the connection in my previous reply. It's called, "line upon line"....get it? It's one rule of a good hermeneutic. For anything to be true all things must be in accord and non-contradictory. Just the definition of the word last and how it is used already should be a red flag to you.

I also said that there may be two different celestial events. Jesus say's "the moon shall not give her light." But in Revelation 6:12 the moon became as blood.

There's a difference between a blood red moon and one that you cannot see at all.

Revelation 6:12 ??And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:30 ??And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come

Acts 2:20 　The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The moon is darkened at the sickle event of Joel 3 so that means that in the sickle event in Rev. 14 there is a darkened moon. This is the gathering and the harvest i.e. the time of the rapture. They are all mentioned with a darkened moon (not a red one) which Jesus says in Mt. 24 occurs after the tribulation, and Joel 3 says occurs 'near' the day of the Lord.

Joel 3:12 ??Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 　The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

The same sickle in Joel 3 and Rev. 14. is Jesus account recorded in Mathew 24 where He gathers us in the clouds. In Rev. 14 the event...the harvest, rapture, and gathering by a sickle actually takes place upon a white cloud. Just like in Mt. 24!

Revelation 14:14 ??And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 ??And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the
cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 ??And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The blood red moon is always mentioned as occuring 'before' the Day of the Lord. The darkened moon (rapture/gathering/harvest/sickle) is said to occur 'near' the day of the Lord.

The blood red moon...

Revelation 6:12 ??And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal..... and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:30 ??And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The darkened moon...

Matthew 24:29 ??Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Joel 2:10 　The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joel 3:13-15 is the harvest and the gathering and the same celestial event Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24.

　Beat your plowshares into swords...Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down.....The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

The last trump occurs during a darkened moon at the harvest of Rev 14 and Joel 3. It takes place during the events of the seventh trumpet which Jesus says occurs after the tribulation.
Your theory is debunked and you've become snide.

 

[teleiosis]

Did Paul mean the LAST Trumpet? The guy who cannot interpret Hab 1:9 correctly, and who adds words to God's Word would have you believe that Paul was referencing the seventh Trumpet - which he had never read about! The seven trumpets of God's Wrath was not revealed by John until some 40 years after Paul's execution!

Or did Paul mean THE Last Trumpet? As Paul was a trained Pharisee, he would have known about this nuance of wording. Yes, there is a difference.

The Last Trumpet is paired with the First Trumpet in Jewish ritual worship. They are two of three Trumpets said to belong to God.
The First Trumpet is made from the left horn of the Adekah Ram. It is sounded on the Festival (appointed time) of Weeks: Pentecost.
The Last Trumpet is made from the right horn of the Adekah Ram. It is sounded on the Festival of Trumpets: Rosh ha-Shanah.

AFTER the Last Trumpet is the Great Trumpet! It is sounded on Yom Kippur. Funny how God does that.

Once again you are rebuked kaoticpolitic - and you STILL can't raise a cogent argument rebutting the original proof in Scripture that the Last Trumpet cannot be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

...And you still can't defend your failed eschatology that goes against God's Word whereby you claim you know when the Day of the Lord will occur.

And your point on the moon? It's moot. You literally don't know what you're talking about. I would no more trust your interpretation than place my faith in your understanding.

 

[sam]

Believe the word of God as the absolute truth.
The last trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET only.
Try to understand scripture keeping in mind, the absolute truth is what GOD has said, What Jesus has spoken adn what apostles have revealed.
Let me repeat my previous question:

Do you suppose, the catastrophe described following the opening of the sixth seal, is to to happen before the incidents described specific with trumpets 1 to 6 taking place?

 

[teleiosis]

And again, you’re mixing your belief here sam. While the first foundation I have in my Christian theology is that the Bible is true... the Bible NEVER says the Last Trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET only. You are making that distinction. Now if you want to take some time and study 'trumpets' you'd be embarking on a wonderful little side study which would enrich your understanding and broaden your thinking on how God uses trumpets, which are His, and the various uses for trumpets, their calls, and even how they are made. You would find out that there are named Trumpets in the Bible which are said to be "God's." This is what I have been trying to teach some of you who rather simply insist, 'last means last.' Ha! Would that it be so simple, but it is not!

1. The Bible says that we are taken up at the Last Trumpet: 1Co 15:51-52.

2. Paul, who wrote that, previously said (in real time) that this taking up would be on the Day of Christ: 2Th 2:1-2.

3. Paul previously said to that true fact in the Bible that the taking up would be when we would meet Jesus in the sky: 1Th 4:16-17.

4. Jesus, our highest authority in the Bible, also said He would come on the clouds to gather the Elect: Mt 24:30-31.

5. Jesus also said this would happen AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ: Mt 24:29.

6. The sun/moon/star event of the Olivet Discourse is repeated (not verbatim, but that is not necessary) in the sixth Seal: Rev 6:12-14.

7. Likewise, it is after the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal that we find the Great Multitude, coming out of the same Great Tribulation which Jesus said was cut short in the Olivet Discourse - in the third Heaven of God the Father's Temple: Rev 7:9-17.

AND this happens BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which THEN allows the Trumpets to "announce" God's Wrath!

So I already answered your question in my first response to you.
The Seals take place BEFORE the Trumpets.
The Seals unlock the Scroll.
The Scroll stores the desolations that have been decreed.
When the Scroll is opened, those desolations go forth with the various Trumpet calls.

That is the nature of the Bible: it tells stories. These "stories" (which happen to be true) take the form of linear narratives.
In the Bible, by way of those linear narratives where this happens and then that happens; God tells us the ORDER in which EVENTS take place.
God is consistent in this regard, as you would expect of an unchanging, all-knowing, all-powerful God.
God is consistent in this regard as you would also expect for the truth.

As far as "catastrophes," I think you have to look at the two earthquakes and the sun/moon/star event differently; they are not desolations as you suppose which affect the earth on a world-wide Biblical scale like the first Trumpet does. I would not call the two earthquakes and the celestial signs of the Day of the Lord - catastrophes, in fact, I DO NOT call them a catastrophe. They are wake-up calls to an unrepentant and insolent portion of mankind that GOD IS COMING. To that effect, from a parallel account to the sixth Seal in Revelation chapter 14 (coming after the midpoint abomination of Rev 13 and before Rev 15-16 with His Wrath in the last of the desolations: the Bowls which lead up to the end at Armageddon), God also sends three Angels to proclaim the Gospel and spell out for 'man' what is going to happen to him if he doesn't repent. That is why that the Kings of this earth and their servants in the Seal/Scroll broad overview of the end-times at the sixth Seal are hiding and why they "know" God is coming for them! They have no special insight! They aren't even believers!

Because the end-times are largely written in linear narratives in parallel to each other, that I can harmonize them to each other around specific and unique events. The Bible is consistent in this regard and the key passage I have which allows for me to discern the order is Jesus' Olivet Discourse. Many who prefer a Pre-Trib or a classical Post-Trib eschatology will fight what is written in the Olivet Discourse tooth and nail. But then, I think they have too much emotional reasoning invested in their own pet theories to actually submit to what God has already ordained to happen. I had to change my own notions of the Rapture after I studied along this course, but it has been most rewarding.

 

[veteran]

And again, you’re mixing your belief here sam. While the first foundation I have in my Christian theology is that the Bible is true... the Bible NEVER says the Last Trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET only. You are making that distinction. Now if you want to take some time and study 'trumpets' you'd be embarking on a wonderful little side study which would enrich your understanding and broaden your thinking on how God uses trumpets, which are His, and the various uses for trumpets, their calls, and even how they are made. You would find out that there are named Trumpets in the Bible which are said to be "God's." This is what I have been trying to teach some of you who rather simply insist, 'last means last.' Ha! Would that it be so simple, but it is not!

Nowhere does Apostle Paul or our Lord Jesus equate the sounding of the Revelation trumpets with an Old Covenant feast time or time of worship. The sounding of the trumpets in ancient Israel had different purposes, and one purpose was to sound the 'order' of battle, a specific representation of Israel's use of trumpets that you appear to want to skip... altogether.

That tradition of the trumpet used by the military has continued... to this day, every U.S. miltary base still sounding revelle and retreat each day. That is how the Revelation trumpets are presented, to define the order of the endtime events. And Jesus giving us 3 specific Woe periods with the last 3 trumpets cements that idea even further. If the Revelation trumpets are presented in any 'other' type order, then it would destroy the concept of the 3 Woe periods which Jesus attached to the last three trumpets to signify a specific 'order' for endtime events.

1. The Bible says that we are taken up at the Last Trumpet: 1Co 15:51-52.

Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that event, which goes with what he was teaching there. Nowhwere in 1 Cor.15 does he say we are removed from this earth, but that all on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye, on the last trump (trumpet). The 'harpazo' ("caught up") event of 1 Thess.4 is about Christ gathering His elect ONLY, from both Heaven and on earth, and then the Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals where, with His taking them to Jerusalem on earth. The "last trump" Paul mentioned cannot be any other trumpet than the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, for it is the final trumpet in the battle plan of Revelation.

One of the main problems with the Pre-trib Rapture doctrinists is how they are so busy trying to drum up Biblical evidence for being raptured prior to the tribulation that they totally miss that our Lord Jesus only gave 7 Signs of the end per His Olivet Discourse. The 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials are only about the 7 Signs of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. On the last and final 7th Sign of His Olivet Discourse He covered the time of His coming and gathering of His Church.

The Seals don't happen first, then the Trumpets, and then the Vials. Revelation does not cover the exact order they happen. They all happen concurrently, with the 7th of each ending at the same time with the final 7th Sign Jesus gave, which is the time of His coming. That's another reason why the "last trump" Paul mentioned cannot be any other trumpet than the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11.

2. Paul, who wrote that, previously said (in real time) that this taking up would be on the Day of Christ: 2Th 2:1-2.

The "day of Christ" KJV phrase of 2 Thess.2 is a mistranslation. The real Greek word for "Christ" is Greek 'Christos'. But the actual word in the Greek manuscripts of that phrase is Greek 'kurios', which means 'lord'. Thus Paul actually said "day of The Lord" and not "day of Christ".

The "day of the Lord" is when Paul and Peter said Christ's coming is, per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10. Both linked the idea of Christ coming "as a thief" on that day. At Rev.16:15, on the timing of the 6th Vial, Jesus warned about His coming "as a thief" still, revealing that His coming still does not occur even at the 6th Vial. The 7th Vial event is about the battle of Armageddon, which is "day of the Lord" timing.

3. Paul previously said to that true fact in the Bible that the taking up would be when we would meet Jesus in the sky: 1Th 4:16-17.

The "caught up" (Greek harpazo) event is about those of us on earth being 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye" IN ORDER to be gathered by Christ at His appearance in the clouds. 1 Thess.4 tells us He bring the 'asleep' saints with Him for that gathering event. Both the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scripture about that covers His gathering of both the resurrected saints and His saints still alive on earth at that time. But God's Word didn't end there about what's to occur next. He gathers us to Jerusalem, on earth, per Zech.14. Even Acts 1 declared Jesus is returning to where He ascended into Heaven from, i.e., the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

4. Jesus, our highest authority in the Bible, also said He would come on the clouds to gather the Elect: Mt 24:30-31.

Read the Mark 13 example of that, for they are a little different. One example is about the asleep saints that have died, and the other is about saints still alive on earth. And don't forget, the heavenly is going to be revealed ON EARTH when that happens. Both of those align with what Pau taught in 1 Cor.15 that happens on the "last trump". Those yet alive on earth are 'changed', and the asleep saints are resurrected.

5. Jesus also said this would happen AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ: Mt 24:29.

God's Word says the darkening of the moon and stars happens ON "the day of the Lord", NOT AFTER (Isaiah 13; Joel 2; Joel 3; Amos 5; Amos 8; Zeph.1). Paul and Peter said Christ's coming "as a thief" is ON the "day of the Lord", not after (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thess.5).

6. The sun/moon/star event of the Olivet Discourse is repeated (not verbatim, but that is not necessary) in the sixth Seal: Rev 6:12-14.

The 6th Seal events do include the signs of Christ's second coming, and His wrath upon the wicked. That happens on the "day of the Lord". Just because the final 7th Seal isn't meantioned until a later Revelation chapter doesn't mean all the Trumpets and Vials only begin to occur after the 6th Seal. That because the same type of signs of Christ's coming reign and wrath upon the wicked are also given on the 7th Trumpet, and on the 7th Vial.

7. Likewise, it is after the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal that we find the Great Multitude, coming out of the same Great Tribulation which Jesus said was cut short in the Olivet Discourse - in the third Heaven of God the Father's Temple: Rev 7:9-17.

The Revelation 7 Scripture mentions NOTHING about the darkening of the moon and stars, nor about Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord", nor about the concept of a 'third heaven'. You have been wrongly taught to ADD those concepts into that Rev.7 Scripture. They do not belong, and here's why. The "great multitude" past Rev.7:9 is a FUTURE LOOK when Jesus is already reigning ON EARTH, at Mount ZION on earth (Jerusalem), and they are standing before His throne that's where? On earth. The specific temple being mentioned there is Christ's future Millennium temple of Ezekiel 40 through 47, which is on this earth. That's where the "many mansions" will be per John 14, which simply mean 'abodes', i.e., where the priests will live in relation to the Sanctuary and Oblation. Ezekiel 44 teaches us about His elect priests, the Zadok (the Just). I can tell you've never really studied that part of God's Word.

AND this happens BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which THEN allows the Trumpets to "announce" God's Wrath!

Nope. The method by which Christ gave Apostle John to write down His Revelation is not the exact order of the events given. This is easily recognized when Scripture like Rev.16:15 is heeded AS WRITTEN, which is Christ still warning His Church with declaring His coming "as a thief" during the 6th Vial. Same thing with the 7th Trumpet event, the time of His reign and wrath not until that 7th Trumpet. Same thing in Rev.10 that the mystery of God is finished with the sounding of the 7th angel. Christ gave us many clues as to the proper order of the Revelation events. One only need heed them per their event type, and not get trapped into the order He gave John to see the visions.

I mean think, if the 6th Seal includes events of Christ's coming and His wrath, but those SAME kind of events aren't shown until the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial, that should be enough to let one know the Trumpets and Vials end at the same time as the 6th Seal. In Rev.8 we're even given a short pause of silence to represent that with the 7th Seal also.

God's Wrath does not come until... the "day of the Lord" timing when Jesus returns. Christ's coming is not until the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. Rev.7, Rev.9, Rev.11 up to the 7th Trumpet, Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, all reveal Christ's Church still not gathered yet.

So I already answered your question in my first response to you.

The Seals take place BEFORE the Trumpets.
The Seals unlock the Scroll.
The Scroll stores the desolations that have been decreed.
When the Scroll is opened, those desolations go forth with the various Trumpet calls.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are about the SAME timing of the 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse. The 21 signs of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials have to be reduced... to just those same 7 Signs of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Jesus opening the Seals represents opening them up to our UNDERSTANDING. That's what Rev.5 shows us for John wept because no one was found worthy to open the Seals until told that Christ is worthy to open them, signifying we all... must go through Christ Jesus to understand those Seals. Thus the Seals represent information, and not the exact order of endtime events. One should easily recognize this since the first Seal described is about the rider on the white horse, which is totally out of place in the order. Yet, the rider description follows the order in which Jesus gave the Seals in His Olivet Discourse, His first mention to not allow any man to deceive us.

That is the nature of the Bible: it tells stories. These "stories" (which happen to be true) take the form of linear narratives.

In the Bible, by way of those linear narratives where this happens and then that happens; God tells us the ORDER in which EVENTS take place.

That "linear narrative" idea is from MEN'S DOCTRINES, not God's Word. Prophecies given in God's Word are often very unlinear! It's because great timeline jumps often appear between chapters, verses, and sometimes within... a single verse. The way Christ's Book of Revelation is laid out follows the same way the OT Books of the prophets are laid out. The timeline often jumps back and forth, requiring the Bible student to be studied in all of the previous Books of God's Word before being able to understand His Revelation.

Because the end-times are largely written in linear narratives in parallel to each other, that I can harmonize them to each other around specific and unique events. The Bible is consistent in this regard and the key passage I have which allows for me to discern the order is Jesus' Olivet Discourse. Many who prefer a Pre-Trib or a classical Post-Trib eschatology will fight what is written in the Olivet Discourse tooth and nail. But then, I think they have too much emotional reasoning invested in their own pet theories to actually submit to what God has already ordained to happen. I had to change my own notions of the Rapture after I studied along this course, but it has been most rewarding.

You keep pushing that "linear narrative" idea from men's doctrines, but it is a FALSEHOOD when it comes to the Books of the prophets and Revelation. And pretty much of what you're following appears to be a little bit of both Pre-trib and Post-trib theology.

 

[teleiosis]

You keep pushing that "linear narrative" idea from men's doctrines, but it is a FALSEHOOD when it comes to the Books of the prophets and Revelation.

Nonsense.

In the Olivet Discourse, Matthew orders Jesus’ Words with the adverb “then,” conjunctions like "and," verb tense, and outright ordering "immediately after" which sets the order.

v. 15: So when – a statement of time: the midpoint abomination
v. 16: Then – giving the order: those in Judea flee at the midpoint invasion (Gog-Magog War)
v. 21: For then there WILL be – Great Tribulation – which follows the erection of the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 with two onerous laws we are explicitly told to disobey or die eternally in the very next writing John does: Rev 13:15-17.
v. 22: Those days WILL be shortened – happens after the Great Tribulation
v. 23: At that time – during the Great Tribulation
v. 29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER – explicitly setting the order that the sun/moon/star event is connected to and follows the Great Tribulation.
v. 30: Then will appear – after the sun/moon/star sign of the Day of the Lord, the sign of the Son of Man will be seen: I think this is the scrolling of the sky as Jesus returns.
v. 31: AND He will send – a conjunction linking His return to the Rapture, and the order is His Return and then our gathering onto Him.

Mt 24:15-31 is the detailed parallel account to the broad overview given in Mt 24:4-14, which also gets to the "end" of the Church Age.

The Bible refutes your spurious and specious charge of “FALSEHOOD!” It appears you are the one perpetrating falsehood.

Furthermore, in the book of Revelation: Jesus gives John the order in which events transpire. The Seals must be broken so the Scroll can be read. That condition is set up in chapter 5. As Jesus breaks the Seals, John numbers the them in the order in which they are broken. The Lamb (Jesus) does not have seven hands… He cannot break all the Seals at once.

Likewise, when the Scroll is opened, seven Trumpets are given to seven Angels. The Angels blow their Trumpets in the order Jesus gave John which he wrote down. The first four come in thirds, and the last three are numbered Woes. The first Woe alone takes five months. The Trumpets cannot blow concurrently and have them all end at the same time as you would like the Bible to read, or the fifth Trumpet would have to precede the first four which act in thirds.

The Seals don't happen first, then the Trumpets, and then the Vials. Revelation does not cover the exact order they happen. They all happen concurrently, with the 7th of each ending at the same time with the final 7th Sign Jesus gave, which is the time of His coming.

Nope.

The Scroll is not a codex (a book). Each Seal does not unlock a like-numbered Trumpet. That is not the evidence John reveals. All seven Seals must be broken before any Biblically sized, world-wide desolation goes forth. The Scroll, unlike human scrolls to be sure; it has writing on both side, however, it is still a Scroll: it is not sealed within. The evidence in the Bible is that the Scroll is a scroll and not a book, and that all the Seals are sealing the leading edge which prevents the Scroll from being read – and it contains the desolations that God decreed so long ago that Gabriel told Daniel about it.

The rule is: One follows another. Scholars, writing about the just Four Horsemen, the first four Seals, also remark that one makes the next one possible; they cannot happen independently of each other and they cannot happen all at once – which is an aberration of Bible interpretation you favor as a “last day” Post-Trib adherent. You want everything to wrap up neatly at the end and like some, think you’re going to be top dog, victor, and conqueror of everything evil. Sorry Charlie, you’re not that important.

And pretty much of what you're following appears to be a little bit of both Pre-trib and Post-trib theology.

Nope. You keep sidetracking the debate pinning erroneous labels on me. I am Pre-Wrath and I came to this position after doing an analysis of the sequence of events given in end-time prophecy.

Nowhere does Apostle Paul or our Lord Jesus equate the sounding of the Revelation trumpets with an Old Covenant feast time or time of worship. The sounding of the trumpets in ancient Israel had different purposes, and one purpose was to sound the 'order' of battle, a specific representation of Israel's use of trumpets that you appear to want to skip... altogether.

I haven’t skipped that. I mentioned it before. In Day of the Lord prophecy from the OT, you’ll find the Israelites blowing those types of horns as well as other armies sounding the attack.

What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52, Revelation hadn’t been written.
What you miss is that Paul was a trained Pharisee.
What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52 they were still sounding the Festival Trumpets in Jerusalem at the Temple on the Temple Mount.

In the context of his time and theirs, Paul's audience would have understood the Last Trumpet to be a reference to Rosh ha-Shanah.

God’s Trumpets are all Trumpets of Assembly; they call people together.
The seven Trumpets of God’s Wrath are all Trumpets of Announcement.
Battle trumpets are another aspect, but not germane to the discussion here.

Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that event, which goes with what he was teaching there. Nowhwere in 1 Cor.15 does he say we are removed from this earth, but that all on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye, on the last trump (trumpet). The 'harpazo' ("caught up") event of 1 Thess.4 is about Christ gathering His elect ONLY, from both Heaven and on earth,

Negative sergeant.

Isaiah 25 and Zechariah 14 concern the Millennium; that is for Israel. We are to rule on the Earth, but we do so as Christ’s heirs.

1Co 15:51-52 IS about the Rapture. It is in a whole section of teaching about the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ. This is additional teaching from Paul’s previous letters the Thessalonians: his first two letters to the Churches.

In 1[sup]st[/sup] Corinthians chapter 3, Paul says he is going to treat them like children. He does not teach them eschatology. However, central to the Christian faith is resurrection. Thus the section in chapter 15 is right in line with 1Th 4:16-17 because it is talking about the resurrection of the Dead in Christ which Paul previously taught came on the Day of the Lord and prior to the Rapture of those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation!

The phrases, from the four winds, and from one end of the earth to the other and everything under the heavens is figurative speech meaning absolutely all – the entire earth – not missing any part of it.

Likewise, in Rev 7:9-17, we see the Great Multitude of people from every tribe, language, nation and people. These people come out of the Great Tribulation.

There is perfect symmetry between the Olivet Discourse, Paul’s eschatology and Revelation.

The Harvest goes not back to Earth as you suppose, misreading the passages for the Remnant Jews who are entering the Millennium in Zec 14 – for we already know who Jesus is – but to the barn of Heaven where there is safety.

The Great Multitude appear in the Court of the Temple before God the Father in accordance with Jesus’ parable of the wheat and tares.

The earth will be made desolate during the one ‘seven,’ and at the end of it, life is meager and there are but a few people left. These are gathered to Mount Zion with the Great Trumpet – which comes after the Last Trumpet.

…and then the Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals where, with His taking them to Jerusalem on earth. The "last trump" Paul mentioned cannot be any other trumpet than the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, for it is the final trumpet in the battle plan of Revelation.

The first you misread – the second is your conclusion pulled out of thin air.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Let me just jump in here for a moment. It's been awhile since I posted in this forum, but this subject caught my eye. First of all, I'm not going to state my position as to what I believe is the timing of the rapture. I have my beliefs and I have good Christian friends that believe it comes at other times, some not even at all. I guess it's a matter of whether one believes the bus will arrive so-to-speak before the storm, during or at the end. If one has the confidence, then hop on before without taking an umbrella. Some prefer to take the umbrella while waiting for it. And likewise I won't get into the order of the judgements. Again, some like to take Revelation chronlogically, and some scramble it up, but the end result is the same.

However, all that said, I must admit I agree with the OP that the last trumpet of Paul is not the seventh (aka "last") Trumpet of Revelation. This is why I believe that. Paul stated to the Corinthians:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

First of all, we can all agree on these facts:

1) Paul was the theological brains of the early church, sort of like Einstein was to the scientific world. Therefore, he knew exactly what he was talking about.
2) Since he specifically mentioned the last trump, it was some event he was familiar with --- he does not ramble off something he just dreams up. He was talking about something specific.
3) Furthermore, since he was addressing the Corinthians, it had to be something they were familiar with as well, and perhaps even a written referece somewhere, but the former for sure. If they did not know what it was, he would have explained it to them in this passage, or previously explained it to them.

Now here's the kicker. The Revelation of Jesus Christ was revealed to John, and as such the book was not written yet when Paul stated this.

How could Paul reference something specifically that was only revealed to John later on?

However, back then both the Corinthians and Paul were familiar with the feast of Trumpets which had a series of trumpet sounds and the last, great blast being the time that Paul was referencing. In other words, a direct association of the resurrection and changing to the feast of Trumpets.

Jesus furthermore makes a similar connection with the time of the end when he said that "no man knows the day or hour". Again he was referencing he feast of Trumpets as every feast day takes place in the midst of a month and God's people knew ahead of time when it was to take place --- but not the feast of Trumpets. That is the only feast given at the start of a lunar month and as such the month would not commence until the sighting of the new moon. People were not sure if today was the day and if so, what hour that moon would be witnessed, and the trumpet sound made to herald the month and the feast. As Jesus would say, one had to "watch".

So, to sum it all up, the reference I see both Paul and Jesus making has to do with the feast of Trumpets and cannot be concretely tied to the trumpet judgements in Revelation.

 

[veteran]

The trumpet (or actually horn) blowing on the Feast of Trumpets involved something like 9 soundings after four sets of benedictions were read. It does not align with the 7 Revelation Trumpets and order, especially since the last 3 trumpets of Revelation have specific Woe periods attached to each.

Nonsense.

Not nonsense, since the idea of a 'linear narrative' means a step by step straight line order. Events of Christ's second coming on the "day of the Lord" are shown on the 6th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial, scattered between Rev.6 through Rev.16. Even with Rev.10 mentioning when the 7th angel has sounded the mystery of God should be finished is out of order of the narrative, since the events on the 7th trumpet are not mentioned until the next chapter of Rev.11. In Rev.14 & 15, Christ's elect are already standing on Mount Zion with Him, before the 7 Vials are even given in the next chapter of Rev.16 before His coming. On the 6th Vial Jesus is still warning His Churdh on earth about His coming "as a thief". It means the Rev.14 & 15 views are a future look forward in time. God's Word in the OT prophets does that kind of 'NON-linear' timeline movement all the time.

In the Olivet Discourse, Matthew orders Jesus’ Words with the adverb “then,” conjunctions like "and," verb tense, and outright ordering "immediately after" which sets the order.

v. 15: So when – a statement of time: the midpoint abomination
v. 16: Then – giving the order: those in Judea flee at the midpoint invasion (Gog-Magog War)
v. 21: For then there WILL be – Great Tribulation – which follows the erection of the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 with two onerous laws we are explicitly told to disobey or die eternally in the very next writing John does: Rev 13:15-17.
v. 22: Those days WILL be shortened – happens after the Great Tribulation
v. 23: At that time – during the Great Tribulation
v. 29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER – explicitly setting the order that the sun/moon/star event is connected to and follows the Great Tribulation.
v. 30: Then will appear – after the sun/moon/star sign of the Day of the Lord, the sign of the Son of Man will be seen: I think this is the scrolling of the sky as Jesus returns.
v. 31: AND He will send – a conjunction linking His return to the Rapture, and the order is His Return and then our gathering onto Him.

If Matt.24 were a true "linear narrative" you could have begun quoting back at Matt.24:4-5 instead of v.15, where Jesus gave the very first sign, when He said to not allow any man to deceive us. He picks that being deceived topic back up at Matt.24:23-26 about a coming false one, which is further proof against a linear-narrative. Instead, all you're doing is pointing out sections of verses that go together for the different signs He was giving there, and that does nothing to support your theory of a "linear-narrative".

Mt 24:15-31 is the detailed parallel account to the broad overview given in Mt 24:4-14, which also gets to the "end" of the Church Age.

End of what so-called "Church Age"? That idea is NOT written there. It's an idea from men's doctrines. The idea of Matt.24:3 with "end of the world" is the ACTUAL end of THIS world on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. Afterall, His return is the very last sign He gave there in Matt.24, and His literal bodily return to this earth has yet... to happen.

The Bible refutes your spurious and specious charge of “FALSEHOOD!” It appears you are the one perpetrating falsehood.

You don't know what God's Word says. If you did you wouldn't cause such confusiong about the 7th Trumpet events.

Furthermore, in the book of Revelation: Jesus gives John the order in which events transpire. The Seals must be broken so the Scroll can be read. That condition is set up in chapter 5. As Jesus breaks the Seals, John numbers the them in the order in which they are broken. The Lamb (Jesus) does not have seven hands… He cannot break all the Seals at once.

Christ did not... given John the visions in the order they all come to pass. I've already proven that. The opening of the Seals ain't some kind of Jewish ritual like you're trying to make it. You can't even get the opening of the Seal at Rev.5:2 correct. The Scripture says "one of the seals", doesn't tell us which one it is as per the order of events. How can we know the first one being opened is not the 1st Seal? By it's... subject! What's it's subject? A rider on a white horse. Two alternatives: 1) if Christ is meant as that rider, then what's it doing at the BEGINNING of the opening of the Seals if the narrative is linear!?! or 2) if the antichrist is meant, then why's it being opened first also, since the false one doesn't appear on the scene until later per the 7 Signs Christ gave in Matt.24? This is really easy.

Likewise, when the Scroll is opened, seven Trumpets are given to seven Angels. The Angels blow their Trumpets in the order Jesus gave John which he wrote down. The first four come in thirds, and the last three are numbered Woes. The first Woe alone takes five months. The Trumpets cannot blow concurrently and have them all end at the same time as you would like the Bible to read, or the fifth Trumpet would have to precede the first four which act in thirds.

You're wrong. The seven trumpets are not even mentioned until Rev.8! And there's a SPACE of a half of an hour given between the last 7th Seal and the next vision of John seeing seven angels being given seven trumpets. Do you think that space of half an hour is to mean something to us? It's a DIVIDER between the visions John was given! It signifies a change of subject.

Rev 8:1-2
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
(KJV)

The Scroll is not a codex (a book). Each Seal does not unlock a like-numbered Trumpet. That is not the evidence John reveals. All seven Seals must be broken before any Biblically sized, world-wide desolation goes forth. The Scroll, unlike human scrolls to be sure; it has writing on both side, however, it is still a Scroll: it is not sealed within. The evidence in the Bible is that the Scroll is a scroll and not a book, and that all the Seals are sealing the leading edge which prevents the Scroll from being read – and it contains the desolations that God decreed so long ago that Gabriel told Daniel about it.

It easy; simply because of the events of the 6th Seal showing Jesus' return with time of His Wrath. The purpose of the Seals is to impart information, which is what I said before. I never said it was a book. So you've gone off in la-la land somehow, because focus on the EVENTS contained IN the Seals shows what? They give us more information on HOW to interpret the upcoming 7 Trumpet and 7 Vial events!

The actual Revelation Scripture that sets the order of the Seals are the last 3 Trumpets. That's why there's 3 WOE periods given with the last 3 Trumpets. The 5th and 6th Seals have events that align with the 6th and 7th Trumpets. The events of the 6th and 7th Trumpets align with the 6th and 7th Vials.

The rule is: One follows another.

That's YOUR rule from men, not God's. And just to prove you don't know what you're talking about, notice the Revelation 13 chapter events, which are about the time PRIOR to Christ's return, are described AFTER the Rev.11 chapter's 7th Trumpet event about Christ having come with all the kingdoms of this world becoming His. Rev.13= false working on earth by the "another beast"; Rev.11 = 7th Trumpet with Christ shown reigning with all kingdoms having become His. Which number comes first, 13 or 11?

So if Christ is shown reigning with all kingdoms on earth becoming His at Rev.11 with the 7th Trumpet events, but the "another beast" is reigning at Rev.13, then how does that prove a "linear-narrative" for the Revelation chapters?

Nope. You keep sidetracking the debate pinning erroneous labels on me. I am Pre-Wrath and I came to this position after doing an analysis of the sequence of events given in end-time prophecy.

Labels don't really matter. Staying in God's Word as written is what matters. That means, it doesn't matter how many previous positions you left to get where you are now. What matters is whether it follows the Scripture or not. And so far, it does not because of your "linear-narrative" proclamation.

Will you EVER address the Rev.16:15 Scripture where Jesus on the 6th Vial is warning His Church to keep on watch and keep their garments, because His coming will be "as a thief"?

I haven’t skipped that. I mentioned it before. In Day of the Lord prophecy from the OT, you’ll find the Israelites blowing those types of horns as well as other armies sounding the attack.

Then why your choice to push ideas of less relevant uses for Israel's trumpets when the endtime events lead up to the battle of Armageddon on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns?

What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52, Revelation hadn’t been written.

What you miss is that Paul was a trained Pharisee.
What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52 they were still sounding the Festival Trumpets in Jerusalem at the Temple on the Temple Mount.

What you miss is that Paul was learned in the OT prophets, which where that "last trump" was mentioned in relation to Christ's coming and the "day of the Lord" events. The "last trump" he was referring to is the SAME trumpet he was talking about in 1 Thess.4:16, so where did Paul get that information? From the Old Testament prophets! (like Isa.18; Zech.9; Isa.27; Ps.47). And... from Christ Himself...

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

You mean our Lord Jesus mentioned the sounding of that last trumpet too about the time of His coming and gathering of His Church? Yes!

So what happens on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period?

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)


That reveals the "last trump" Paul was teaching is that very same 'trump' of 1 Thess.4 and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11.

That's why... there are NO MORE Woe periods AFTER the 7th Trumpet; it's because the 7th Trumpet IS... the last one to sound, even as Christ also revealed here...


Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(KJV)

 

[teleiosis]

The trumpet (or actually horn) blowing on the Feast of Trumpets involved something like 9 soundings after four sets of benedictions were read. It does not align with the 7 Revelation Trumpets and order, especially since the last 3 trumpets of Revelation have specific Woe periods attached to each.

Right.


That's what Tim_from_PA and I have been trying to tell you. As an aspect of first century Jewish living, the Last Trumpet was a known quantity in the fifth decade when Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthians. It was blown every year; even the people around Israel who were not Hebrew would understand the significance of what Paul was saying. He is making a reference to one of the "appointed times" or "Festival" in the Jewish system of worship - which is Biblical because it adheres to the Old Testament Law.

Therefore, by mentioning the Last Trumpet, Paul is pointing to God's Law as a way of demonstrating God's plan for us.

Like the phrase "former and latter rains" in prophecy, and the knocking on the door in Songs of Solomon Son 5:2, Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, showing them to be a kind of template for God's plan of redemption. Even the Seder Feast and the liberation from Egypt stands as a pattern for the larger context of man's struggle with sin and God's plan for redemption. Likewise, the second coming of Christ Jesus will follow the pattern of the Fall Festivals; the end-times are "appointed times" as well for God's intervention in mankind's affairs.

This is not man-made doctrine as you like to accuse others. (Your accusation is wildly ironic, because your eschatology is entirely man-made as well.) Paul said that the Festivals are templates for what is to come - but not the reality. It is just a pattern. Paul said this in Col 2:16-17.

The pattern of Rosh ha-Shanah is that it comes first before the Days of Awe - God's Wrath - and before the Day of Atonement: Yom Kippur when Jesus reveals Himself to the Remnant Jews shepherded through the desolations of His Wrath and protected from the evil one during the second half of the one 'seven' - Rev 12:6 & Rev 12:16 (a repeated event within one chapter demonstrating its dual parallel account construction) and further evidenced in Isa 42:16 and Isa 10:20.

In the sequence of events Jesus lays out in His linear narrative of Mt 24:15-31 - we can also know that this Last Trumpet Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination AND the Great Tribulation -which is shortened by the arrival of the Day of the Lord! Why does Jesus not go on and explain all the desolations that will follow? One, He will, with John who was told things he could not repeat ( 2Co 12:2 ) and two, for the Church, it is not necessary because we will not go through God's Wrath - 1Th 1:10.

SO - during the one 'seven,' after the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 & Rev 13:14-15) we have the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21-22 caused by Rev 13:15-17) which is shortened in time (so some Elect would survive to witness Christ's parousia) by the sudden appearance of the sun/moon/star event (Mt 24:29 & Rev 6:12-14) which precedes the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:30-31) when Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30 - Rev 14:14 -and- 1Th 3:13 / 1Th 4:16-17) to gather the Elect from the earth (Mt 24:31 - Rev 14:16 and 1Th 4:16-17 again).

This Great Multitude of people show up IN Heaven (not back on earth as you insist at Jerusalem) before God the Father in His Temple in Rev 7:9-17. The sixth Seal covers a lot of events which unfold when it is broken. We can think of the sixth Seal as revealing the Day of the Lord because that is what happens with it. The signs which start the sixth Seal - an earthquake, the sun/moon/star event, and the second earthquake are God's indelible stamp of authenticity to the world. In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll account found in Rev chapters 13-16, we can also know that three Angels complete the Gospel as Jesus said was necessary in the broad overview to the end-times in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:4-14). We also see - in the correct sequence of events from the linear narrative of Bible prophecy in Rev chapter 14 - that the 144,000 are mustered first before the Harvest comes on the clouds - just like with the sixth Seal. The Great Multitude therefore, demonstrate that the Rapture results in our deliverance to Heaven.

It is only AFTER the Harvest of souls to Heaven that the first of seven Trumpets blown by Angels goes forth. This happens after the seventh Seal is broken. The silence in Heaven is replicated on earth - this is the calm before the storm! This is foretold in prophecy: Amos 8:3. Remember: "on earth as it is in Heaven."

During the Days of Awe which follow the Last Trumpet, Israel is to be mournful. This is also a theme of the Day of the Lord to natural Israel - the Day of the Lord is not a welcome day for the Jews. Some of the Jews will be protected - Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:16 again. The "shuffling" of Isa 42:16 is replicated in Rev 16:15! What you point to for the Church is not for the Church! The Church has already been "harvested" in Rev 14:14-16! The only ones left are the Jews and two-thirds of them will die - Zec 13:8! Only a third make it to the Atonement - to the safety of the Millennium where God will heal their wounds (and their condition at the end of the desolations is horrific! - Isa 3:17, 24. The "coming as a thief" in Rev 16:15 is a figurative term for Christ's unexpected appearances. When He comes, they are not saved, redeemed, or removed! They do have to move. And if they are not dressed to travel - they are not left behind! They just go naked! Rev 16:15 is not the Harvest. It is for the Remnant Jews of Rev 12:6 and 16.

The Atonement follows the desolations of the Scroll. This is when Israel and the meek are gathered unto Mount Zion. Ten will take the hem of one Jews' garment and say: take us to your Lord. Never in all the annals of the history of the nations surrounding Israel did the Gentiles come to worship after being shown time and time again that the God of Israel was a mighty God indeed - but now - after the Days of Awe - they do! These are the meek of the world because God will destroy the proud. They along with the Remnant Jews will begin life on earth again - and God will heal them and the land according to OT prophecy.

We will rule the earth in Christ's stead. We are not given a place to live on the earth during the Millennium like natural Israel is in Ezekiel. We are, however, at the end of the Millennium, when Satan is released to rise a peaceful people up into rebellion, attacked when the nations then surround the "CAMP" of the Lord at Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem, which mimics the dimensions of the Holiest of Holies - the room behind the Curtain in the Temple - comes after the Millennium. There is no indication that the "camp" of God's people at Jerusalem during the Millennium is meant to house us all. That structure is some 1500 MILES square - mimicking the original 15 foot x 15 foot x 15 foot area of the original Temple erected at Mount Sinai. Therefore since Jerusalem on this world is not big enough to house all the Great Multitude, during the Millennium, it is aptly called a "camp" in the book of Revelation: only some of us will be there, and it is not our permanent home.

The Millennium is necessary so as to save all of Israel.

The second Resurrection, which calls both spiritually living and dead souls from the grave in which they have been staying until this time - allows natural Israel as the "sheep" to join the Elect in eternal life. It is then that the twelve Apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. It is then that the wicked, the goats, will have to acknowledge God before Him before they join the anti-Christ, the false prophet and Satan in Hell - and then even that is done away.

 

[veteran]

Right.

That's what Tim_from_PA and I have been trying to tell you. As an aspect of first century Jewish living, the Last Trumpet was a known quantity in the fifth decade when Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthians. It was blown every year; even the people around Israel who were not Hebrew would understand the significance of what Paul was saying. He is making a reference to one of the "appointed times" or "Festival" in the Jewish system of worship - which is Biblical because it adheres to the Old Testament Law.

Because the same events of Paul's mention of a LAST TRUMP coincides with the events of the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, that's enough to know they are the same trumpet. What you're trying to infer is that the 7th Trumpets of Revelation must align with the trumpets of feasts per the Old Covenant system, a system that was DONE AWAY with by Christ Jesus when He brought The New Covenant. Christianity in the 1st century A.D., did not follow that.

Therefore, by mentioning the Last Trumpet, Paul is pointing to God's Law as a way of demonstrating God's plan for us.

Paul said he preached Christ crucified only. He did not teach the Jews' religion to Christian believers. The "last trump" he was speaking of is the singular trumpet mentioned in the OT prophets about the end of this world, which I gave those Scriptures in my previous post.

The sounding of that specific trumpet, with day of the Lord type events associated with it, IS the trump Paul was speaking of. So it's obvious he was not implying a whole set of feast trumpets like you're trying to infer. He was speaking of a specific trumpet, and he said 'last' to make sure we would know that.

Like the phrase "former and latter rains" in prophecy, and the knocking on the door in Songs of Solomon Son 5:2, Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, showing them to be a kind of template for God's plan of redemption. Even the Seder Feast and the liberation from Egypt stands as a pattern for the larger context of man's struggle with sin and God's plan for redemption. Likewise, the second coming of Christ Jesus will follow the pattern of the Fall Festivals; the end-times are "appointed times" as well for God's intervention in mankind's affairs.

And that's where your downfall will come from, by not heeding the specific order Christ gave for the trumpets in His Book of Revelation, to instead heed the Old Covenant ritual trumpets. Later in this I'll prove how you err in that, and that you instead are really trying to do a type of specific date prognostication for the day of Christ's coming. (And by the way, I've heard of the 'Tabernacle Studies' where you appear to be pulling from.)

This is not man-made doctrine as you like to accuse others. (Your accusation is wildly ironic, because your eschatology is entirely man-made as well.) Paul said that the Festivals are templates for what is to come - but not the reality. It is just a pattern. Paul said this in Col 2:16-17.

The Tabernacle Studies are... man-made doctrine only loosely based... from God's Word, the same type of working the scribes and Pharisees were guilty of doing with adding a little leaven to the whole lump. And if you think that's "ironic", wait until Christ returns to show you what they were doing with His Word.

In the sequence of events Jesus lays out in His linear narrative of Mt 24:15-31 - we can also know that this Last Trumpet Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination AND the Great Tribulation -which is shortened by the arrival of the Day of the Lord! Why does Jesus not go on and explain all the desolations that will follow? One, He will, with John who was told things he could not repeat ( 2Co 12:2 ) and two, for the Church, it is not necessary because we will not go through God's Wrath - 1Th 1:10.

More junk of "linear narrative" type deception I see. Proof? Your falsely pushing TWO Raptures right there in your words with, "happens after the midpoint abomination AND the Great Tribulation".

Maybe you can't count, I don't know, but God's Word speaks ONLY of a ONE TIME GATHERING of the saints to Christ Jesus, and it's AFTER the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned in Matt.24. There is NO such thing as a "mid-point" rapture in God's Word. The great tribulation doesn't end until Christ's second coming, and that's when He gathers His Church, and not before.

SO - during the one 'seven,' after the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 & Rev 13:14-15) we have the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21-22 caused by Rev 13:15-17) which is shortened in time (so some Elect would survive to witness Christ's parousia) by the sudden appearance of the sun/moon/star event (Mt 24:29 & Rev 6:12-14) which precedes the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:30-31) when Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30 - Rev 14:14 -and- 1Th 3:13 / 1Th 4:16-17) to gather the Elect from the earth (Mt 24:31 - Rev 14:16 and 1Th 4:16-17 again).

But that's not what you infer from your previous paragraph and about Rapture after the mid-point of the 7 years. I'm well aware that Christ shortened the tribulation time for the sake of His elect, as per Matt.24 and Mark 13. But that means He shortened the latter half of the 7 years, the time after the abomination idol is setup in Jerusalem. However, NONE of His Church on earth are raptured prior to the time of His coming, period.

This Great Multitude of people show up IN Heaven (not back on earth as you insist at Jerusalem) before God the Father in His Temple in Rev 7:9-17.

That right there is the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory you're preaching. It is a false doctrine from men.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward is a FUTURE LOOK AFTER Christ's return, ON EARTH. It's Millennium timing. They washed their robes in the Blood of Lamb, which is about tribulation, their having gone through it and stayed on Christ. That's why those Rev.7 Scriptures declare a "temple" and "living fountain of waters" there, because that's to be established on earth during Christ's "thousand years" reign, and it's given in the last chapters of Ezekiel. For it to be anything else would be to push the Pre-trib Rapture Lie, which is what you're doing.

It's the Pre-tribulationalists that like to think Christ's Church (mainly Gentiles) are raptured prior to the tribulation time, with only the 144,000 remaining to go through the tribulation.

The sixth Seal covers a lot of events which unfold when it is broken. We can think of the sixth Seal as revealing the Day of the Lord because that is what happens with it. The signs which start the sixth Seal - an earthquake, the sun/moon/star event, and the second earthquake are God's indelible stamp of authenticity to the world. In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll account found in Rev chapters 13-16, we can also know that three Angels complete the Gospel as Jesus said was necessary in the broad overview to the end-times in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:4-14). We also see - in the correct sequence of events from the linear narrative of Bible prophecy in Rev chapter 14 - that the 144,000 are mustered first before the Harvest comes on the clouds - just like with the sixth Seal. The Great Multitude therefore, demonstrate that the Rapture results in our deliverance to Heaven.

No, the "Three Angels" SDA idea is wrong, if that's what this is you're pushing here. Those of Rev.14 with Christ upon Mount Zion is another FUTURE LOOK for Millennium timing. They sing a "new song", and that's in connection with those of Rev.15 that sing the song of Moses for having gotten victory over the beast, his mark, etc. That MEANS they WENT THROUGH THE TRIBULATION AND OVERCAME. Then both the Rev.14 and 15 Chapters revert back to tribulation time events. The Books of the Old Testament prophets do this kind of timeline back and forth movement a lot. Christ's Book of Revelation is no different.

But if you won't to look at that solely from some "linear narrative" perspective, go ahead. It won't change the real order of the Revelation events one bit. It will only wind up showing you the confusion you're on, eventually.

It is only AFTER the Harvest of souls to Heaven that the first of seven Trumpets blown by Angels goes forth. This happens after the seventh Seal is broken. The silence in Heaven is replicated on earth - this is the calm before the storm! This is foretold in prophecy: Amos 8:3. Remember: "on earth as it is in Heaven."

That's the idea of a Pre-tribulation Rapture, simply because for that to be true, it would mean EVERYONE of that harvest would have to represent Christ's elect, AND they would have to be killed to get to Heaven, since there is NO Pre-trib rapture written anywhere in God's Word. It easy to know what you're saying is false, because in Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus SPECIFICALLY warned His elect about the abomination events and the deception of the coming false messiah.

Moreover, per Rev.11, the two candlesticks which refer to two of Christ's Churches on earth (Rev.1:20), would not be able to fulfill their commission from God during that tribulation time if they were raptured to Heaven. Or didn't you know Christ's elect are still on earth all the way to the "last trump", the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe? So is the Church.

During the Days of Awe which follow the Last Trumpet, Israel is to be mournful. This is also a theme of the Day of the Lord to natural Israel - the Day of the Lord is not a welcome day for the Jews. Some of the Jews will be protected - Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:16 again. The "shuffling" of Isa 42:16 is replicated in Rev 16:15! What you point to for the Church is not for the Church! The Church has already been "harvested" in Rev 14:14-16! The only ones left are the Jews and two-thirds of them will die - Zec 13:8!

That's the bs of the Pre-tribulational Rapture THEORY. It is a FALSE doctrine from men's doctrines. And that's what all the Tabernacle type studies are designed for today, to try and TRICK Christians into accepting the coming false messiah to rapture them away, for wheresoever the carcase is, that's where the VULTURES will be gathered together (Matt.24:28).

At Rev.16:15, on the 6th Vial, Christ's Church is STILL ON THE EARTH, NOT GATHERED. That's why Jesus gave the same warnings Paul and Peter did to watch and keep your garments because of His coming will be "as a thief"!

So all you're trying to do is push the false Pre-Trib Secret Rapture Theory Lie, masking it with the Tabernacle study lies.

 

[teleiosis]

Sergeant, I really think you're quite incapable of changing your mind. Your mind is made up, and like the authority figure you were in the military, you're used to giving orders and having them obeyed. However, I was a Captain in the USAF flying fighters. I did take orders then from Sergeants nor do I now take orders from your counterparts in the airline industry. I did, on occasion, take their advice, but in my authority and in my judgment, I did not always act on their suggestions. Likewise, I reject your whole eschatology. In fact, I laugh at how contorted you have to construct the Bible in order to make it say what you want it to say: a very simple end and a Rapture on the last of the one 'seven.'

The Bible has quite a bit of evidence to refute that notion, built up through man-made thinking, which just happens to include your eschatology as much as you would like to claim the high ground and say it is from God. However, as you and those like you are quite human, your eschatology is quite man-made. However, that your eschatology, or anyone else's happens to be man-made - as it is the "study" of the end-times by man - it does not matter. What matters now in this perpetual back-and-forth is "winning." This is where people demonstrate their emotional attachment to their intellectual investment. You have too much riding on your eschatology to admit you were wrong.

To the extent you have to "win," you have also taken to putting all kinds of labels on me. You are operating at a lower level than I prefer; you cannot calmly discuss what the Bible says so you're resorting to personal attacks. Again, your mind is made up, but I really cannot understand why you keep trying to label me as "Pre-Trib!" That's almost laughable.

1. Because the same events of Paul's mention of a LAST TRUMP coincides with the events of the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, that's enough to know they are the same trumpet. 2. What you're trying to infer is that the 7th Trumpets of Revelation must align with the trumpets of feasts per the Old Covenant system, 3. a system that was DONE AWAY with by Christ Jesus when He brought The New Covenant. 4. Christianity in the 1st century A.D., did not follow that.

1. The EVENTS of 1Co 15:51-52 COINCIDE with the EVENTS of the seventh Trumpet? That is your conclusion, and quite a leap of conclusion you have to perform as well! To do so, you have to re-order the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowl Judgments willy-nilly to get the effect you want.
The evidence is that NONE of the events Paul mentions are ever mentioned in the latter part of the Seal/Scroll chronology.

2. I am absolutely NOT inferring that the seven numbered Trumpets blown by Angels align with the named Trumpets of God which are associated with the Festivals, or "appointed times" of God's.
I am really at a loss of how I can agree with you that they are not the same and you read something exactly opposite.
I really question your reading skills at this point and I think I can understand how you can literally read what you want to read when it comes to the Bible.

3. Please name all the Laws that Jesus said He did away with.
I'll give you a hint: Mt 5:18.

4, This is not true as well. The first Christians, Messianic Jews - still worshipped God through the Judaic Worship system when there was a Temple in Jerusalem.
This evidence can be found in Acts 21:24-26. The first Christians, the Messianic Jews of Jerusalem, worshipped in the Temple, taught in the Temple, observed the Sabbath (sundown Friday through the daylight hours of Saturday) and taught in Synagogues in Asia Minor and other towns.

What we have in history, is a divorce between Christianity and Judaism so that Christians, already persecuted, were not also persecuted when the Jews were persecuted. As a result of this schism, starting around the 4th century, we have lost our Judaic roots even though we still refer to our morals and value-system as being Judeo-Christian. Christians later on actually persecuted Jews. Because of this separation, people like you do not know about the significance of the Festivals which adds a layer of understanding to the two Advents of Christ Jesus.

Now, because I think you will misconstrue what I am saying - you cannot even get my eschatology correctly even when I tell you I am not "Pre-Trib," - I am not saying we have to follow the Law to perfection. Obedience to the Law does not impart Salvation; the Law cannot "save" anyone. As a Christian, I profess that Salvation can only come about by faith in Christ Jesus. To that end, while I do not follow the law of circumcision, I do try to follow the moral law, and even with that, I fall short and I still sin - 1Jn 1:8-10.

Paul said he preached Christ crucified only. He did not teach the Jews' religion to Christian believers. The "last trump" he was speaking of is the singular trumpet mentioned in the OT prophets about the end of this world, which I gave those Scriptures in my previous post.

In your previous post, you mentioned Isa 18 - that is a battle trumpet against Cush which comes with God's Wrath.

Zec 9 - is a Day of the Lord trumpet but Zechariah's vision does not distinguish it from the Last Trumpet gathering the Elect versus a battle Trumpet fought in one of the two battles which are prophesied to occur on the Day of the Lord: one around Jerusalem, and the other to the south near Bethlehem. Because of the location, this trumpet in Zechariah may be one blown in the Valley of Decision.

Isa 27 is the Great Trumpet - it is associated with Yom Kippur and comes after the Last Trumpet. This assembly trumpet calls the Remnant and the few surviving people of the other nations to Israel: to Mount Zion.

Ps 47 is a generic reference to trumpets... and trumpets can be blown in celebration. That is yet another type of trumpet as different from announcement trumpets as they are from assembly trumpets and as different as each is to battle trumpets. Trumpets serve many roles; you confuse them eagerly.

Now I have gone over all the differences between the Trumpets, and that has fallen on deaf ears. You say the Trumpet of Mt 24:31 is the same as the Trumpet of Rev 11:15 - yet in the first case, Jesus blows the Trumpet and as evidenced by the plain language in Revelation, an Angel blows the seventh Trumpet. The evidence you provide does not line up; it does not match. Yet you will continue to call an announcement Trumpet which heralds God's Wrath - an assembly Trumpet calling the Elect together. Those two events are not even close to being alike, yet you will continue to try to "win" the case for your man-made eschatology.

 

[veteran]

Sergeant, I really think you're quite incapable of changing your mind. Your mind is made up, and like the authority figure you were in the military, you're used to giving orders and having them obeyed. However, I was a Captain in the USAF flying fighters. I did take orders then from Sergeants nor do I now take orders from your counterparts in the airline industry. I did, on occasion, take their advice, but in my authority and in my judgment, I did not always act on their suggestions. Likewise, I reject your whole eschatology. In fact, I laugh at how contorted you have to construct the Bible in order to make it say what you want it to say: a very simple end and a Rapture on the last of the one 'seven.'

My handle here is not "Sergeant". And your idiotic anti-military slurs only reveal how far you've gotten outside of God's Word, for you've totally left it now for that milly-mouthed mocking speech. I don't have to be concerned about that kind of falseness; Christ will take care of it soon enough. You've been caught pushing a form of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture Theory lie using the Tabernacle type studies that's been going around in the last decade or so, and you obviously don't like being exposed on all that. Tough.

1. The EVENTS of 1Co 15:51-52 COINCIDE with the EVENTS of the seventh Trumpet? That is your conclusion, and quite a leap of conclusion you have to perform as well! To do so, you have to re-order the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowl Judgments willy-nilly to get the effect you want.

The evidence is that NONE of the events Paul mentions are ever mentioned in the latter part of the Seal/Scroll chronology.

You have nothing to refute it except your Tabernacle doctrines of men, which don't work because they are doctrines that originate outside of God's Word. They only USE God's Word to seem... authentic, to try and deceive. But even a young child can look at the events of Paul's "last trump" in 1 Cor.15 and the 7th Trumpet events of Rev.11 and know they are the same timed events. Such is how God's Word is in simplicity that even a little child can grasp it.

2. I am absolutely NOT inferring that the seven numbered Trumpets blown by Angels align with the named Trumpets of God which are associated with the Festivals, or "appointed times" of God's.

I am really at a loss of how I can agree with you that they are not the same and you read something exactly opposite.
I really question your reading skills at this point and I think I can understand how you can literally read what you want to read when it comes to the Bible.

Bactracking now? When you associated the feast trumpets with the "last trump" of Paul, that's exactly what you were doing, because Paul was speaking of the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, the LAST one to sound. It is the great trumpet of the OT prophets simply because that's the final trumpet when the events of the day of the Lord is to occur. And day of the Lord events are written in Rev.11 with the sounding of that 7th Trumpet. But you don't want to address those day of the Lord type events written with that 7th Trumpet in Rev.11, now do you? No, you haven't thus far even attempted it, but instead have steered as clear away from those 7th Trumpet events as far as you can get.

3. Please name all the Laws that Jesus said He did away with.
I'll give you a hint: Mt 5:18.

The ones written in Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2. Or maybe per your Tabernacle Studies thing you think Christians are still supposed to be doing animal sacrifices in a temple under a Levitical priesthood? That's what Orthodox Judaism believes today, and you show you're more aligned with them than with Christian Doctrine.

4, This is not true as well. The first Christians, Messianic Jews - still worshipped God through the Judaic Worship system when there was a Temple in Jerusalem.

This evidence can be found in Acts 21:24-26. The first Christians, the Messianic Jews of Jerusalem, worshipped in the Temple, taught in the Temple, observed the Sabbath (sundown Friday through the daylight hours of Saturday) and taught in Synagogues in Asia Minor and other towns.

Like I said, you're more aligned with the doctrines of Orthodox Judaism than with Christian Doctrine. Judaism is still the system from the Pharisee's doctrines. It is vehemently anti-Christian, even as Paul showed about the "Jews' religion" in his Epistles. Phariseeic Judaism then did not stay within God's Word in The Old Testament anymore than it does now. It was a false system of men in the 1st century A.D., and still is today. That's why Jesus condemned its doctrines.

So trying to associate that Phariseeic system with Christ and the early Christians shows a sickness, a mental disorder, especially since it was that Phariseeic system that had Christ Jesus crucified.

What we have in history, is a divorce between Christianity and Judaism so that Christians, already persecuted, were not also persecuted when the Jews were persecuted. As a result of this schism, starting around the 4th century, we have lost our Judaic roots even though we still refer to our morals and value-system as being Judeo-Christian. Christians later on actually persecuted Jews. Because of this separation, people like you do not know about the significance of the Festivals which adds a layer of understanding to the two Advents of Christ Jesus.

Judaism NEVER was associated with Christ and Christianity. It's a doctrine of devils from the start, even from the creeping in by the old Canaanite bondservants who became the later Nethinims (temple servants), and non-Israelite priests. By the time of Christ's first coming, the priesthood had been taken over (even with Idumeans in it), and many of the Babylonian Talmud doctrines from Babylon of the Pharisees and Sadduccees having taken over and corrupted what Moses was given.

It should be clear why God separated the majority of His people Israel of the ten tribes away from the corruptions of Judaism which the Pharisee system would later cause. It was so the majority of the seed of Israel would not go into corruption again after Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten lost tribes only).

Now, because I think you will misconstrue what I am saying - you cannot even get my eschatology correctly even when I tell you I am not "Pre-Trib," - I am not saying we have to follow the Law to perfection. Obedience to the Law does not impart Salvation; the Law cannot "save" anyone. As a Christian, I profess that Salvation can only come about by faith in Christ Jesus. To that end, while I do not follow the law of circumcision, I do try to follow the moral law, and even with that, I fall short and I still sin - 1Jn 1:8-10.

There's only ONE "eschatology" that is correct, and it's what God's Word says as written. And there is no blowing of feast trumpets idea given with the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. Jesus made His Revelation easy enough so even Gentile believers on Him would understand it. But all your Phariseeic doctrine does is try to destroy that simplicity Christ gave. And now that you've gone on to some tirade of the Law, this point is revealed all the more.

In your previous post, you mentioned Isa 18 - that is a battle trumpet against Cush which comes with God's Wrath.

Pretty obvious you're not using the same Bible I use (KJV). Isaiah 18 includes day of The Lord endtime events, direct associations to the great supper and harvest of the wicked by Christ in Rev.19. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though, since it requires one to know New Testament Scripture, and not just Old Testament Scripture.

Zec 9 - is a Day of the Lord trumpet but Zechariah's vision does not distinguish it from the Last Trumpet gathering the Elect versus a battle Trumpet fought in one of the two battles which are prophesied to occur on the Day of the Lord: one around Jerusalem, and the other to the south near Bethlehem. Because of the location, this trumpet in Zechariah may be one blown in the Valley of Decision.

Since those are day of The Lord events, they are directly associated with the final Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. The gathering of Christ's Church happens on the "day of the Lord", as given by Christ's servants Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10. That's when the trumpet will blow, and not before. The "day of the Lord" is when the battle of Armageddon will occur, timed with the 7th Vial of Rev.16. Paul gave that time of gathering to Christ in 2 Thess.2:1-2 also, the KJV has it as "day of Christ".

But what your doctrine is wrongly teaching you to do, is to split the "day of the Lord" events into time sections, when it all occurs within the same hour of Christ's coming.

Isa 27 is the Great Trumpet - it is associated with Yom Kippur and comes after the Last Trumpet. This assembly trumpet calls the Remnant and the few surviving people of the other nations to Israel: to Mount Zion.

Isa 27:13
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's about the gathering of Israel back to the land, it's Millennium timing of Christ's future reign there, not Judah's confusion in Jerusalem today. The previous Isaiah 27 verses establish that timing difference.

Since Christ died on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe, no other atonement is needed. Yom Kipper ("Day of Awe") was an old custom of the Jews of a day to confess their sins to God at the end of the year and be absolved then. We do that now ANY DAY of the year through The Blood of Jesus Christ! And there's no trumpets of assembly mentioned with the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. Trying to add such to the Revelation 7 trumpets is to try and add to God's Word something that is not written. Moreover, the Hebrew end of the year is not at the end of summer harvest.

Ps 47 is a generic reference to trumpets... and trumpets can be blown in celebration. That is yet another type of trumpet as different from announcement trumpets as they are from assembly trumpets and as different as each is to battle trumpets. Trumpets serve many roles; you confuse them eagerly.

Psalms 47 is "generic"??? That's new to me, the idea that any... of God's Word could be "generic"! Psalms 47 is very implicit as to the timing by its events...

Ps 47:1-9
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4 He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.
5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of His holiness.
9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: He is greatly exalted.
(KJV)

When does Christ Jesus reign over all nations upon this earth from Jerusalem? At His second coming. That's also when the gathering of Israel back to the holy lands is to occur, along with His reign upon David's throne IN JERUSALEM, ON EARTH. Thus that is a very implicit chapter about the future Millennium time of Christ's reign over all the nations upon the earth. It's Rev.20 timing. That is when God will officially be, to all nations, King over all the earth like Zech.14:9. That has yet to happen today, if you'll look at what today's nations are following. That shout and trumpet is the last trumpet Paul mentioned, and the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 which declares all the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of God and of His Christ. So Ps.47 is a direct parallel to the events of the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 also.

Now I have gone over all the differences between the Trumpets, and that has fallen on deaf ears. You say the Trumpet of Mt 24:31 is the same as the Trumpet of Rev 11:15 - yet in the first case, Jesus blows the Trumpet and as evidenced by the plain language in Revelation, an Angel blows the seventh Trumpet. The evidence you provide does not line up; it does not match. Yet you will continue to call an announcement Trumpet which heralds God's Wrath - an assembly Trumpet calling the Elect together. Those two events are not even close to being alike, yet you will continue to try to "win" the case for your man-made eschatology.

I'm not deaf, but that doesn't mean the doctrine you're following is Biblical. I don't need to play legalistics with you, for that's all you're doing now, straining at gnats. My Bible in Matt.24:31 says Christ will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet; doesn't say He blows it personally, as if it really mattered anyway. 1 Thess.4:16 says it's the "trump of God" and the "voice of the archangel", so good luck trying to pin down exactly which angel sounds it. Many speculate it will be the Archangel Michael. Zech.9:14 does say that The Lord GOD blows it though.