The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture

[Enoch111]

I hold fast to Post Trib, and hopefully I will be alive when OUR SAVIOR returns on the Clouds, With Power and Great Glory,

This is called "the Second Coming of Christ", but is mistakenly seen as a Post-Trib Rapture. Rapture means going up, the Second Coming means coming down.

 

[Enoch111]

Why is the New Jerusalem called the Bride of Christ?

"As a Bride" is simply comparative. Not the same as "the Bride".

Why is God going to live with his people, man, rather than addressing them as his bride.

God is not limited by time or space. So while He is with the Church (the Lamb's Wife) in the New Jerusalem, He is also with redeemed mankind on earth after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established. Redeemed and restored Israel and Jerusalem on earth will be the center of worship, and God will be there.

 

[Truth]

This is called "the Second Coming of Christ", but is mistakenly seen as a Post-Trib Rapture. Rapture means going up, the Second Coming means coming down.

I do not debate what you think and what I think, as I said I hold Fast, so you are entitled to your Take as I am of mine. Be Blessed!

 

[7angels]

How about when God releases the devil and he lets him deceive the whole Earth and make war against God.
How does this final battle fit into your thinking if the Day of the Lord has already come?

first question- you are referring to the 1000 year reign after which comes the white throne of judgment correct? if so then this is a lot of guess work since there are few scriptures to back it up. we all know that the bride of Christ and those that came out of the great trib will be in new jeruseum. now the tricky part is who will be all those outside or God's Holy city. so say they will be the survivors that were on earth at that time during the great trib. i don't think so because these people have already been given their choice of whether or not to choose Jesus. so i believe these people are from the old testament who were raised again to see who they would choose to side with Jesus or satan. all those christians in God's Holy city are already saved and will not be deceived or lose their salvations(at least i hope ). the ones that will be tested are those outside who will get to live basically 1000 years of the good life then satan will be released for the last time and those that follow satan with share in his destruction. btw i think satan already knows the end result but is trying to bring as many of God's supposed chosen people to destruction with himself.

second question- i have always wondered why satan was allowed to roam free after he tried to overthrow God. when the angels sinned according to enoch they were chained in Hell. why wasn't satan? i can only think of one reason. lucifer(before he became satan) got a promise from God. what promise i cannot say but since God upholds all promises even though satan sinned God will still thick to His promises. now that i have explained that let us go back to your question. you will notice that the beast and the prophet are both cast into the lake of fire after the day of the Lord yet the devil was not. he was confined for a period of time like a jail sentence and then released again. after the 1000 year millennium satan is cast into the lake of fire along with all those that were judged unworthy at the white throne of judgment.

did i answer your questions? if not just ask more and i will try and answer them.

God bless

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

first question- you are referring to the 1000 year reign after which comes the white throne of judgment correct? if so then this is a lot of guess work since there are few scriptures to back it up. we all know that the bride of Christ and those that came out of the great trib will be in new jeruseum. now the tricky part is who will be all those outside or God's Holy city. so say they will be the survivors that were on earth at that time during the great trib. i don't think so because these people have already been given their choice of whether or not to choose Jesus. so i believe these people are from the old testament who were raised again to see who they would choose to side with Jesus or satan. all those christians in God's Holy city are already saved and will not be deceived or lose their salvations(at least i hope ). the ones that will be tested are those outside who will get to live basically 1000 years of the good life then satan will be released for the last time and those that follow satan with share in his destruction. btw i think satan already knows the end result but is trying to bring as many of God's supposed chosen people to destruction with himself.

second question- i have always wondered why satan was allowed to roam free after he tried to overthrow God. when the angels sinned according to enoch they were chained in Hell. why wasn't satan? i can only think of one reason. lucifer(before he became satan) got a promise from God. what promise i cannot say but since God upholds all promises even though satan sinned God will still thick to His promises. now that i have explained that let us go back to your question. you will notice that the beast and the prophet are both cast into the lake of fire after the day of the Lord yet the devil was not. he was confined for a period of time like a jail sentence and then released again. after the 1000 year millennium satan is cast into the lake of fire along with all those that were judged unworthy at the white throne of judgment.

did i answer your questions? if not just ask more and i will try and answer them.

God bless

You gave me your opinions.
Thank you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

(Heb. 11) is not giving quotes either from Old Testament or anywhere else. It is simply stating the truth of what occurred. It is not referencing in any way. Just because some apocryphal books speak of some faith or some persecution, does not mean (Heb. 11) is quoting, or referencing, or alluding to them.

Stranger

And a THOUSAND of your patented denials don't amount to a hill of beans.
Heb. 11:35 is absolutely referencing 2 Macc. 7:1-42 almost verbatim.

Here's another one for ya . . .
The whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield in Eph. 6:13-17 follows Wis. 5:17-20 almost verbatim.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey Breadman, I never said that Deuteronomy is not Scripture.
But if you want to add to Deuteronomy, then shame on you.

I used to think this "dumb" act of your was just that - an act.
I now wonder how you've gotten through life spewing such stupid remarks as this one.

I said "Deuterocanonical Books" - not "Deuteronomy", Einstein . . .

 

[Stranger]

And a THOUSAND of your patented denials don't amount to a hill of beans.
Heb. 11:35 is absolutely referencing 2 Macc. 7:1-42 almost verbatim.

Here's another one for ya . . .
The whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield in Eph. 6:13-17 follows Wis. 5:17-20 almost verbatim.

There is nothing to indicate that Hebrews (11:35) is referencing 2 Macc. It is speaking to many events of faith under toruture. The woman mentioned in (Hebrews) was in reference to resurrection. No resurrection in 2 Macc. The mother died in 2 Macc. No mention of the mother dying in (Hebrews).

Concerning any comparison of (Eph. 6:13-17) with Wis. 5:17-20, there is none. The armor that is listed in Wisdom doesn't identify with the same things listed in (Ephesians).

There are no quotes in the New Testament from any apocryphal book.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.
I know it had a hold on everyone for quite a few years and I feel the tides are turning.
Prib-trib rapture is based on a few verses in the Bible that some people have misused.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18;
Then 2 verses later, the Apostle Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3;
Conveniently, some guy 300 years ago put chapters in the Bible to cause all kinds of confusion that goes on to this day.
People like to use Revelation 3:10;
That just means you'll escape the Great White Throne Judgement because that's when God's wrath really swings forward.
People don't want to think that, they want the easy way out.
"Oh, God will never let me feel pain, oh."
Tell that to the Christians who went into the arena to meet the lions.
Now that's no joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pre-trib is for sissies.
God is building up an army to face anything the enemy has.
Put on the armor of God and share the Gospel through prayer and the Word of God.

I think that, despite that people often get sick of talking about this, now is actually a really important time to be trying to understand the End Times.
I don't consider myself a Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil. I simply can't find it in scripture. Too many questions, too many holes. I think the Amil understanding fits scripture much better.
However...that said, I must say that I am given pause by the current state of the world, especially in the Middle East. The one thing the Amil position doesn't seem to go into, at least in depth, is how we really understand the world to be at the time of the end. There seems to me to be prophecies in the OT that have not yet been fulfilled. I know the Amil believer gets accused of "spiritualizing" everything...which we don't, not really. We take the context of the text into account; how it was written and how it's supposed to be taken. Revelation is apocalyptic...it IS symbolic. But many of the OT prophecies were fulfilled literally. Not all of them were written in the apocalyptic style. So I don't believe there is sound reason to expect some of these 'left over prophecies' not to be fulfilled literally. And here in lies my rub. The Pre-tribbers seem to have a nice handle on some of that, and when you look at the players lining up around Israel, you just have to go..."hmm".
So I'm left with somewhat of a conundrum. I often ask myself if they are perhaps accurate in this, maybe they are on it all? But again and again I go to scripture and just don't see it. No matter how much I search, or even want to, I just can't see a Pre-trib rapture. And I honestly cannot justify stretching scripture just to suit the current events in the world, no matter how interesting they may be.
So...I find myself watching, praying, researching. Mostly....I don't really care how it all happens. I just want Jesus to come back. Today would be nice.

 

[Enoch111]

No matter how much I search, or even want to, I just can't see a Pre-trib rapture.

If you want to see a Pre-trib Rapture, the first thing you have to do is reject Amillennialism.

Chances are you won't do that, therefore you will continue to wonder about Bible prophecies.

If "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) is repeated SIX TIMES in seven verses (Rev 20), only a very biased person would conclude that there is no literal Millennium.

We are told (by those who have not properly studied Revelation) that the book of Revelation is largely SYMBOLIC. Nothing could be further from the truth. No doubt there are many symbols in that book, but by an large they have been explained or they can be explained by referring to other Scriptures. Revelation must be accepted in its plain, literal, chronological sense, and it will make perfect sense.

 

[Naomi25]

If you want to see a Pre-trib Rapture, the first thing you have to do is reject Amillennialism.

Chances are you won't do that, therefore you will continue to wonder about Bible prophecies.

Forgive me, but...this makes no sense. Why should I drop Amillennialism, which makes sense to me, just so I can "see" something that I already see as having holes all the way through it?
That's like reasoning "Jumping out of a plane requires a parachute to live; to jump without one is crazy, despite some people telling me I can fly. But hey, because they really believe it, I'm going to stop believing in the parachute and gravity, and just jump."
No...I need to be given some very sterling and startling evidence before I start considering the idea of flight to be valid.

If "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) is repeated SIX TIMES in seven verses (Rev 20), only a very biased person would conclude that there is no literal Millennium.

Who said there is no Millennium? We just disagree on when it is and where.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” - John 18:36


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet..., - Ephesians 1:20–22

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. - 1 Corinthians 15:25–27

and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. - Colossians 2:10

After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, - Hebrews 1:3b

We are told (by those who have not properly studied Revelation) that the book of Revelation is largely SYMBOLIC. Nothing could be further from the truth. No doubt there are many symbols in that book, but by an large they have been explained or they can be explained by referring to other Scriptures. Revelation must be accepted in its plain, literal, chronological sense, and it will make perfect sense.

Well, it depends on who is doing the studying, doesn't it? Clearly there are several different schools of thought on how to interpret Revelation. And sure, maybe the way I read it isn't 100% correct. But I'm left with more questions if I try and interpret it your way. For example, you object to it be "largely symbolic" and claim it must be read literally and chronologically. However, if we do not take it symbolically, we end up more muddled then if we do. The bible itself points us to symbolic interpretation. Daniel shows us how to view "Beasts with horns". The OT prophets show us that the heavens shaking and stars falling and the sky rolling up and the sun being blocked out, are just symbols for great National upheaval and strife. Imagine if we were to take those things literally every time Revelation called for them. How many times do we have a massive asteroid falling to earth (stars: lets forget for a moment that if REAL stars fell to earth we'd be stuffed from the get go), the sun going dark, only to have the light blocked again later (presumably it "comes good" again in the meantime?), or the Islands and mountains fleeing away to be no more, only to show up again and do it again in later chapters. It's one thing to claim that great national, and even natural upheaval with happen in the last days...I believe they will. But to try and make every single thing in Revelation literal is impossible, and your own hermeneutic falls apart fairly quickly. You yourself fall back on turning beasts into people and nations, stars into asteroids, swords coming out of Jesus' mouth into words, etc.
Then, of course, we can look at numbers in Revelation. That's a whole other topic in and of itself. You claim that anyone who has studied would be able to pick something, well...I am surprised that you cannot see what this book does with numbers. Even Dispensational scholars admit that numbers can and do play a symbolic role within scripture in general and Revelation in particular. The number 7, for example. It is universally accepted that 7 is the number of fullness or completion. All you need to do is look at how many times 7 is used in Revelation to get the idea that it must mean something. It cannot be a coincidence that it has been used so frequently. And for any bible scholar, or anyone who desires to know the word of God, that should lead us to consider if God has used other numbers in a similar way. The answer is yes.
However, I know you won't agree with me, so, I think I'll just spare myself a little time, and just leave it at that!!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

If you want to see a Pre-trib Rapture, the first thing you have to do is reject Amillennialism.

Chances are you won't do that, therefore you will continue to wonder about Bible prophecies.

If "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) is repeated SIX TIMES in seven verses (Rev 20), only a very biased person would conclude that there is no literal Millennium.

We are told (by those who have not properly studied Revelation) that the book of Revelation is largely SYMBOLIC. Nothing could be further from the truth. No doubt there are many symbols in that book, but by an large they have been explained or they can be explained by referring to other Scriptures. Revelation must be accepted in its plain, literal, chronological sense, and it will make perfect sense.

How about considering what happens between that start of that millennium reign and the end as being a significant event? That Satan is in the pit and after 1000 years, is released for his last rebellion for a small season before he is defeated and put in the lake of fire to burn forever.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is nothing to indicate that Hebrews (11:35) is referencing 2 Macc. It is speaking to many events of faith under toruture. The woman mentioned in (Hebrews) was in reference to resurrection. No resurrection in 2 Macc. The mother died in 2 Macc. No mention of the mother dying in (Hebrews).

Concerning any comparison of (Eph. 6:13-17) with Wis. 5:17-20, there is none. The armor that is listed in Wisdom doesn't identify with the same things listed in (Ephesians).

There are no quotes in the New Testament from any apocryphal book.

Stranger

First of all - there is NO getting around the fact that Heb. 11:35 references 2 Macc. 7:1-42 almost verbatim.
Secondly - the "Armor of God" in Ephesians is taken from Wisdom.

I realize how devastating this is for you - but you must submit to the Word of God.
Your simplistic denials are not evidence . . .

 

[Enoch111]

Who said there is no Millennium? We just disagree on when it is and where.

Here is how Theopedia defines Amillennialism:
Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. It stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church.

Since the present church age has lasted for over 2,000 years, it should be clear that Amillennialism says that there really is no Millennium. And since the present church age also shows that Satan and his evil spirits have been (and are) controlling large segments of the world, "Christ is presently reigning through the church" becomes a joke.

 

[Triumph1300]

"Christ is presently reigning through the church" becomes a joke.

Christ is still doing the works of the father.
He never changes.
He's the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Enoch111]

Christ is still doing the works of the father.
He never changes.
He's the same yesterday, today and forever.

That's totally different from suggesting that Christ is actually reigning on earth "through the Church" as we speak.

If the literal reign of Christ was already in effect (as claimed by Amillennialists), sin and evil on this earth would be COMPLETELY ABSENT, righteousness would prevail in everything.

ISAIAH 11
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 

[Stranger]

First of all - there is NO getting around the fact that Heb. 11:35 references 2 Macc. 7:1-42 almost verbatim.
Secondly - the "Armor of God" in Ephesians is taken from Wisdom.

I realize how devastating this is for you - but you must submit to the Word of God.
Your simplistic denials are not evidence . . .

No, it is not 'devastating'. Because it doesn't exist.

Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

That's totally different from suggesting that Christ is actually reigning on earth "through the Church" as we speak.

If the literal reign of Christ was already in effect (as claimed by Amillennialists), sin and evil on this earth would be COMPLETELY ABSENT, righteousness would prevail in everything.

ISAIAH 11
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Ah, but, Jesus also tells us that Satan's good and faithful servants will be working on the face of the earth for a period of time after God establishes His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth in our near future. I am sure that their work will not be the works of righteousness but will be considered to be sinful and evil.

 

[Triumph1300]

Ah, but, Jesus also tells us that Satan's good and faithful servants will be working on the face of the earth for a period of time after God establishes His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth in our near future.

Where is that in scripture?

 

[Jay Ross]

Where is that in scripture?

It is contained in the Parables of the Pound and the Talents. But it depends on who the lead character is, i.e. the one who goes away for a time.

It is my understanding that Jesus was talking about Satan in both of these parables. There are others who will argue differently.