The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture

[Enoch111]

Ah, but, Jesus also tells us that Satan's good and faithful servants will be working on the face of the earth for a period of time after God establishes His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth in our near future.

I don't believe you will find any such thing in the Bible.

1. We know for a fact that before the Millennium the Beast and the False Prophet are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon, and Satan is chained in the bottomless pit for 3 1/2 years (Rev 19/20). So presumably all evil spirits are locked up during that time.

2. After that Satan will we loosed for a short space for the battle of God and Magog, but all those who are gathered with him will be supernaturally destroyed and Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with all evil angels and evil doers) (Rev 20). Also the earth will be supernaturally burned up (2 Pet 3:7-13).

3. Once the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, the everlasting Kingdom of God will be established on earth and there will never again be evildoers on earth. (Rev 21/22).

 

[Triumph1300]

Jay Ross, You say a lot, but don't back it up with scripture.
This is the third time.

 

[Enoch111]

You say a lot, but don't back it up with scripture.

What are the references to Rev 19,20,21,22 and 2 Pet 3 if not Scripture?

 

[Jay Ross]

I don't believe you will find any such thing in the Bible.

That, is your problem in that, IMHO, you do not fully understand Matt 25: 14 - 30 and Luke 19 : 11 - 27 where both parables are about Satan's servants continuing Satan's oppression of the Saints where ever possible while he is imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

Also in the Luke Parable, there is a reference to the Jews starting the process of their redemption with God.

1. We know for a fact that before the Millennium the Beast and the False Prophet are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon, and Satan is chained in the bottomless pit for 3 1/2 years (Rev 19/20). So presumably all evil spirits are locked up during that time.

This is not true, Both the Beast and the False Prophet are not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon as you are claiming, but rather they are thrown into the lake of Fire after they rise up out of the Bottomless Pit at the end of being locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years, just as Satan rises up around this same time. Also Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, Rev 20 1-3 and not the 3 1/2 years as you are suggesting.

Rev 20: 1 - 3: - 20:1 en I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.​

2. After that Satan will we loosed for a short space for the battle of Gog and Magog, but all those who are gathered with him will be supernaturally destroyed and Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with all evil angels and evil doers) (Rev 20). Also the earth will be supernaturally burned up (2 Pet 3:7-13).

Yes after the 1,000 years of imprisonment in the Bottomless pit, Satan is able to roam once more across the face of the earth, probably this time period will be between 20 to 30 years in duration. During this short period of time, there will also be scorpions, the beasts of Daniel 7:19 ff, the false prophet and all of the other wicked fallen heavenly hosts.

3. Once the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, the everlasting Kingdom of God will be established on earth and there will never again be evildoers on earth. (Rev 21/22).

Actually not true. The everlasting kingdom is established at the beginning of the Millennium Age, during the time of those kings who are judged at Armageddon. Daniel 2

Dan 2 : 44: - 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.​

Also at this time The Son of man will be given dominion over all of the people of the earth such that they should worship Him. Daniel 7 : 13-14

Dan 7: 13 - 14: -

13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
​

Yes, after the GWT judgement the earth will be purged of all evil doers.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay Ross, You say a lot, but don't back it up with scripture.
This is the third time.

I am sorry but if you needed me to back up something with scripture verses, when I had provided the labels for the two parable in question, then it is obvious to me that you, yourself, do not know the scriptures as well as others might on this forum. For not considering that I am sorry.

Whether or not I need to provide the scriptures every time that I post is questionable, if this is a Christian forum/board. It takes a lot more time to prepare posts if you require that level of detailed information.

As far as I know, there is no three strikes and you go straight to jail or are banned rule on this forum.

 

[Naomi25]

Here is how Theopedia defines Amillennialism:
Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. It stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church.

Since the present church age has lasted for over 2,000 years, it should be clear that Amillennialism says that there really is no Millennium.

Okay, I see you're objecting here over two main issues: our claim that see's the 'Millennium' lasting for more than 1000 years...so, it's not 'literal'. And the idea that Satan is bound now.
On the first issue, it's important to look at how numbers are used in Revelation. Even within the rest of scripture numbers can and often do hold symbolic significance. As I mentioned before, 7 is always a good basis to start with: It's used 735 times (54 times in the book of Revelation alone) in the bible; the number 7 is the foundation of God's word. If we include with this count how many times 'sevenfold' (6) and 'seventh' (119) is used, our total jumps to 860 references. Seven is the number of completeness and perfection (both physical and spiritual).
We also see in the OT 7 being used when Joshua and the Israelite's circled the walls of Jericho 7 times before it fell, also when Naaman is told to bath 7 times to heal his leprosy, and for animals to be at least 7 days old before sacrifice. In these instances, 7 signifies a completion of some kind: a divine mandate is fulfilled. So when we come to Revelation and see the 7 Churches, 7 seals, trumpets, bowls, etc, we need to understand that there is more than just 7 numerical Churches involved. There is this vast, rich, spiritual history that the bible brings to the number. This is God's doing, not Amillennialists.

Now, with the number of 1000, we can also see that it does not, strictly, need to be interpreted as a literal 1000 years. Bear with me as I explain.
The 1000 is often used to represent 'immensity', 'fullness of quality', or 'multitude'. Which you might say is a bit of a stretch, but if we look at scripture, in regards to time, it is easy to see how scholars came to this conclusion, and how in particular with reference to 'time' 1000 is almost always used symbolically.

[7] He is the LORD our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.
[8] He remembers his covenant forever,
the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
[9] the covenant that he made with Abraham,
his sworn promise to Isaac,
[10] which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant, - Psalm 105:7–10

Clearly the covenant God made with Abraham was an everlasting covenant, it says so here, but it also says it's for "a thousand generations". Well, which one is it? It cannot be both, can it? It can if it represents a long period of time that God has predetermined.


[10] For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills. - Psalm 50:10

Again...do we understand that God only owns the cows on 1000 hills? No, of course he owns all the cows, on all the hills. He owns everything. But he is using the number 1000 symbolically to present a truth.

[1] Then Job answered and said:

[2] “Truly I know that it is so:
But how can a man be in the right before God?
[3] If one wished to contend with him,
one could not answer him once in a thousand times. - Job 9:1–3

So, Job is able to get a good zinger in every 1000 times. God 999, Job 1. Nope! God always wins, because God is always right. 1000 is used symbolically again.

You get my point. Not every use of 1000 in scripture has to be, or can be, seen as literal. In fact when we read carefully we see how often God has used it to represent a large period of time or number, the fullness of which is determined only by him. So when we come to Revelation where numbers are used so symbolically anyway, why should we start from a position thinking that it MUST be literal?

And since the present church age also shows that Satan and his evil spirits have been (and are) controlling large segments of the world, "Christ is presently reigning through the church" becomes a joke.

Okay, I do understand how this is a hard one to allow. But I have to say, how is "Christ is presently reigning through the Church" a joke? Unless you, like the Disciples, are missing what his Kingdom is. As I posted in my previous answer to you. Jesus himself said that his kingdom is "not of this world". How much plainer can you become? He said that if his kingdom was of this world, his servants would fight to save him. But we are not to fight, we are not to "triumph" in the manner you (or they) expect a "kingdom" to be to come out on top. No...in this age, in this aspect of the kingdom, Christ calls us to triumph by humbling ourselves like he did. Christ and his Kingdom reigns through the Church when we submit to him, spread the gospel through his power, and love others through the power of the Spirit. That is the power of the Kingdom of God. It will only be in the Age to Come that it will be said:

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” -Revelation 11:15


And as for Satan being "bound"...many people struggle with that. They say "but look at all the evil in the world, surely that is proof that Satan is still here.
Well, sure. But, what does Rev 20 actually say about Satan being bound.

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, [3] and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. - Revelation 20:2–3

It is actually fairly specific about what Satan is being bound against...about what he will no longer be able to do. It gives us the information again at his release, plus a little more detail.


[7] And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [8] and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:7–8

He cannot deceive the nations while bound. And as soon as he is released, he will deceive them with the purpose of gathering them together in battle against the saints. Basically...Satan being "bound" now is why we have never had a full scale attempt by the world to wipe us pesky Christians out, even though pretty much everyone hates us. They "somehow" just can't get organized. But that time is coming when Satan will be released and we will see a global effort against God's people.

 

[Enoch111]

On the first issue, it's important to look at how numbers are used in Revelation.

When will Christians learn that numbers are used literally in Revelation? Seven churches means 7 churches, 7 seals means 7 seals, 7 trumpets means 7 trumpets, 7 vials means 7 vials, and we could go on an on and list all the numbers in Revelation. So this is a total non-starter.

Even within the rest of scripture numbers can and often do hold symbolic significance.

A very few times are numbers used metaphorically, but by and large, numbers must be taken literally in Scripture. 12 tribes of Israel means 12 tribes, not 13, not 1,200, or 12,000.

Now, with the number of 1000, we can also see that it does not, strictly, need to be interpreted as a literal 1000 years.

As I anticipated, you would not give up your Amillennialism, and here it is. You are simply doubling down in your error, rather than taking God at His Word. If God did not mean for us to take 1,000 LITERALLY He would not have repeated it six times in seven verses!

As I posted in my previous answer to you. Jesus himself said that his kingdom is "not of this world".

And there you have it. Until the Second Coming of Christ “my kingdom is not of this world” is how it is. Which means that Amillennialism is FALSE DOCTRINE. Christ is not reigning over this earth through the Church, and His Kingdom (His Kingship) is only within genuine believers. That is why there is still so much sin and evil in the world, and so much apostasy in Christendom, and it will continue to get worse until the reign of the Antichrist. If Satan were already bound, we would not hear about the daily crimes and evils that are published by the media worldwide.

What people should note is that very rarely – if ever – will anyone admit that their doctrines are false and walk away from their erroneous beliefs. This is a good example, where even logic does not prevail.

 

[Enoch111]

The everlasting kingdom is established at the beginning of the Millennium Age,

Not so. If the everlasting Kingdom of God were to be established "at the beginning of the Millennium Age", we would not have this passage:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9).

When Christ's everlasting Kingdom is finally established, there is nothing but righteousness and peace on earth.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.

Pre-trib is for sissies.

So why is God judging His House first in 1 Peter 4:17-19?

Why is God judging each believer by his works on that foundation wherein they incur the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ?

Why would God warned the church at Thyatira to repent of her fornication or risk being cast into the great tribulation? Revelation 2:21-25

Why would Jesus warned even His disciples to consider the cost of discipleship in Luke 14:25-33 because many will excuse themselves from the King's supper in Heaven for the cares of this life and their loved ones in Luke 14:15-24 ? Jesus warned of this snare in Luke 21:33-36 for why they should pray that they be worthy to escape and stand before the Son of Man. Even Lot's wife was referenced in Luke 17th chapter for how saved believers can be ensnared to love this life more than wanting to leave with the Bridegroom when He appears.

Why warned of cutting of those who had sought to be His disciples but were not ready as they will have their portion with unbelievers that get left behind to face the fire coming on the earth by which time, they will be receiving stripes by the measure of knowledge they had in not getting ready? Luke 12:40-49

So the apostates are the saved believers that are disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity. That is why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House 2 Timothy 2:18-21 or else they will be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor BUT still in His House.

Saved believers are called, but only a few chosen will be found ready to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor as vessels of honor in His House.

The vessels unto dishonor are still in His House because they testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name as Jesus is the Good Shepherd, and He will get those lost sheep left behind for following that stranger's voice gained by another way around the Son which is the other baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation for a sign of tongues without interpretation: John 10:1-5 The apostates are still considered His sheep for why He MUST bring them as they will be of the one fold & one shepherd. John 10:16

The prodigal son although he has given up his first inheritance for wild living, he will find that he is still son thanks to the glory of Jesus Christ as his Saviour..... but the Bridegroom is coming to judge His House first and it happens at the pre great trib rapture event.

So the pre great trib rapture is not for sissies. It is a call to saved believers and even former believers to live that life of repentance by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race, as well as, not loving this life more than Him so we would go.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So why is God judging His House first in 1 Peter 4:17-19?

Why is God judging each believer by his works on that foundation wherein they incur the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ?

Why would God warned the church at Thyatira to repent of her fornication or risk being cast into the great tribulation? Revelation 2:21-25

Why would Jesus warned even His disciples to consider the cost of discipleship in Luke 14:25-33 because many will excuse themselves from the King's supper in Heaven for the cares of this life and their loved ones in Luke 14:15-24 ? Jesus warned of this snare in Luke 21:33-36 for why they should pray that they be worthy to escape and stand before the Son of Man. Even Lot's wife was referenced in Luke 17th chapter for how saved believers can be ensnared to love this life more than wanting to leave with the Bridegroom when He appears.

Why warned of cutting of those who had sought to be His disciples but were not ready as they will have their portion with unbelievers that get left behind to face the fire coming on the earth by which time, they will be receiving stripes by the measure of knowledge they had in not getting ready? Luke 12:40-49

So the apostates are the saved believers that are disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity. That is why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House 2 Timothy 2:18-21 or else they will be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor BUT still in His House.

Saved believers are called, but only a few chosen will be found ready to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor as vessels of honor in His House.

The vessels unto dishonor are still in His House because they testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name as Jesus is the Good Shepherd, and He will get those lost sheep left behind for following that stranger's voice gained by another way around the Son which is the other baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation for a sign of tongues without interpretation: John 10:1-5 The apostates are still considered His sheep for why He MUST bring them as they will be of the one fold & one shepherd. John 10:16

The prodigal son although he has given up his first inheritance for wild living, he will find that he is still son thanks to the glory of Jesus Christ as his Saviour..... but the Bridegroom is coming to judge His House first and it happens at the pre great trib rapture event.

So the pre great trib rapture is not for sissies. It is a call to saved believers and even former believers to live that life of repentance by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race, as well as, not loving this life more than Him so we would go.

Sissy.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Sissy.

LOL!! That all you got for a rebuttal?

I reckon you have none for the scripture provided reproving the false assumption that there were only a few scripture about the pre great trib rapture.

And there is a whole lot more than the ones I had referenced, brother.

Are you the guy playing the new Magnum P.I. coming this fall? No. wait... the mustache threw me. My bad.

 

[Jay Ross]

Not so. If the everlasting Kingdom of God were to be established "at the beginning of the Millennium Age", we would not have this passage:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9).

When Christ's everlasting Kingdom is finally established, there is nothing but righteousness and peace on earth.

You have in an above post accused another member of tightly holding on to their belief: -

As I anticipated, you would not give up your Amillennialism, and here it is. You are simply doubling down in your error, rather than taking God at His Word.

Is your belief patterned on the Pre-trib theory? It seems so to me.

It also seems to me that you paid no notice of the scriptural references that I included in my previous post as if they were meaningless.

When in scripture are we told that Satan is thrown out of heaven?

Is it not at the end of the war in heaven?

Rev 12 : 7 - 12: - Satan Thrown Out of Heaven
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now, salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

And when does God tell us that He will establish His kingdom here on the earth? Do you remember that I had posted these scriptures to clarify when this would happen: -

Actually not true. The everlasting kingdom is established at the beginning of the Millennium Age, during the time of those kings who are judged at Armageddon. Daniel 2

Dan 2 : 44: - 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Also at this time The Son of man will be given dominion over all of the people of the earth such that they should worship Him. Daniel 7 : 13-14

Dan 7: 13 - 14: -
13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

When does the war end in heaven? Well we have to consider this scriptural passage: -

Isa 24 : 21-22: -
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

And when does this take place? This takes place at Armageddon.

So it wraps a number of events taking place all at and a round at the same time.

The completion of the 2,300 years of the heathen kings trampling the sanctuary.
The drawing of all of the kings to Armageddon to be judged and imprisoned in the pit, i.e. the Bottomless pit.
The judging of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts in heaven, i.e. Satan, the beasts of Daniel 7: 1-12, and them being cast down to the face of the earth to be imprisoned in the pit, i.e. the Bottomless pit. (Daniel 7: 11-12)
God establishing His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth during the time of the judging of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon.
The son of man being given dominion over the peoples of the earth as well as an everlasting kingdom. (Daniel 7: 13-14)

Just to start the list.

Perhaps you belief system needs a little re-evaluation.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

Is your belief patterned on the Pre-trib theory? It seems so to me.

My belief system is based upon a plain, literal interpretation of Scripture, a chronological progression in Revelation, and rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I have no stake in anything else

It also seems to me that you paid no notice of the scriptural references that I included in my previous post as if they were meaningless.

Not meaningless, but not in the proper chronological sequence.

When in scripture are we told that Satan is thrown out of heaven?

Several times. In Isaiah 14:12 we see Satan cast out of the third heaven (God’s Heaven) and into the first and second heavens. In Revelation 12:9, he is cast out of the first and second heavens down to earth, along with his evil angels.

Is it not at the end of the war in heaven?

The war in heaven is transferred to war on earth, and the reign of Satan and the Antichrist begins for 3 ½ years.

And when does God tell us that He will establish His kingdom here on the earth?

Here is the sequence of events in Scripture.
1. The Second Coming of Christ.
2. The battle of Armageddon.
3. The judgment of the nations.
4. The redemption and restoration of Israel.
5. The Millennium (1,000 years of Christ’s literal reign on earth)
6. After that we see Satan released for the battle of God and Magog.
7. After that we see Satan cast into the Lake of Fire.
8. After that we see the Great White Throne Judgment.
9. After that we see the supernatural destruction of the earth with fire.
10. After that we see the New Heavens and New Earth established.
11. After that we see the eternal Kingdom of God established on earth, when there is no more sin, no more death, no more Satan and his evil angels.

So it should be perfectly clear that there are issues after the Millennium which are addressed by God before His eternal Kingdom is established on earth.

 

[Davy]

The early Christians were looking forward to a pre trib iminent rapture. That the rapture was iminent was the context of the letters Paul wrote to the churches such as Thesolanica and Corinthians.

The early Church Fathers believed in a Premillennium return by Jesus to end Antichrist's reign. That means they believed Jesus would come to gather them at the end of the tribulation. There was no Pre-trib Rapture doctrine among any Christian Church until 1830's Great Britain, when John Nelson Darby got the doctrine from the Edward Irving Church, and then Scofield in the U.S. created his study Bible pushing the false idea. Thus for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of the Church at the end of the tribulation.

 

[Stranger]

The early Church Fathers believed in a Premillennium return by Jesus to end Antichrist's reign. That means they believed Jesus would come to gather them at the end of the tribulation. There was no Pre-trib Rapture doctrine among any Christian Church until 1830's Great Britain, when John Nelson Darby got the doctrine from the Edward Irving Church, and then Scofield in the U.S. created his study Bible pushing the false idea. Thus for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of the Church at the end of the tribulation.

So for 1800 years, the Church never learned anything in the Bible? "Line upon line, precept upon precept" (Is. 28:10)

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Oh good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The End ~~~~~~~~

 

[Enoch111]

The early Church Fathers believed in a Premillennium return by Jesus to end Antichrist's reign.

Some did believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and in any event, we are to look for answers in Scripture, not the ECF. There is no connection to a Tribulation in any of the passages about the Rapture. And bringing Irving, Darby, Scofield, etc. into the discussion simply leads to ad hominem attacks rather than biblical clarity.

The first passage about the Rapture EXCLUDES the Tribulation from any consideration (John 14:1-3):

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If the Tribulation was a necessity for the saints, then Jesus would have said: "Let your heart be troubled, because you will FIRST go through the Tribulation..." Christians should understand that the Tribulation is a period of divine judgments for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

 

[Naomi25]

When will Christians learn that numbers are used literally in Revelation? Seven churches means 7 churches, 7 seals means 7 seals, 7 trumpets means 7 trumpets, 7 vials means 7 vials, and we could go on an on and list all the numbers in Revelation. So this is a total non-starter.

A very few times are numbers used metaphorically, but by and large, numbers must be taken literally in Scripture. 12 tribes of Israel means 12 tribes, not 13, not 1,200, or 12,000.

So you say. But I notice you didn't comment on all the scriptures I posted that point out how often numbers are used symbolically. I find that rather interesting. I also find it interesting that you are ignoring that people of your own school (Rapture) also believe that numbers are often symbolic. So I find your insistence otherwise less than weighty.

As I anticipated, you would not give up your Amillennialism, and here it is. You are simply doubling down in your error, rather than taking God at His Word. If God did not mean for us to take 1,000 LITERALLY He would not have repeated it six times in seven verses!

And as I said, why would I give up something that makes sense to me for something I see having holes all the way through it without some very sound reasons? You have given me none. You haven't given me verses, logic, reason or any kind of persuasion, just your rather pointed and somewhat angry point of view.
And I'm sorry, just because he repeated a number 6 times means nothing. As I previously pointed out, God has used the number 7 throughout scripture over 700 times. Why do you suppose that is? It's his lucky number? Just random coincidence? Or he's making a point...?

And there you have it. Until the Second Coming of Christ “my kingdom is not of this world” is how it is. Which means that Amillennialism is FALSE DOCTRINE. Christ is not reigning over this earth through the Church, and His Kingdom (His Kingship) is only within genuine believers. That is why there is still so much sin and evil in the world, and so much apostasy in Christendom, and it will continue to get worse until the reign of the Antichrist. If Satan were already bound, we would not hear about the daily crimes and evils that are published by the media worldwide.

Um. I'm not sure I follow your logic here. If Christ told us his Kingdom is not of this world...but we know he is reigning and ruling over all names and authorities now, perhaps not through us, but the bible definitely tells us this; how do you figure that there is NOT a Kingdom happening right now? What would you call it? The de-facto kingdom? The practice kingdom?
And, of course you have totally ignored the verses I gave about Satan being bound. At some point one has to wonder why that might be. No answer to give to them? The verses are quite clear... Satan is only bound against deceiving the nations and bringing them together for war against the saints. It says nothing about him being bound against doing evil among the world. If you believe differently, you are reading into scripture what simply isn't there. That's completely on you, not me and my 'system'.

What people should note is that very rarely – if ever – will anyone admit that their doctrines are false and walk away from their erroneous beliefs. This is a good example, where even logic does not prevail.

I would agree. I find it worrying that people cannot even converse about their doctrines with a 'give and take' attitude. Instead they are stand-offish, defensive, and sometimes aggressive. I don't understand why. I believe understanding the end times is important, and I am fairly sure of my beliefs in regards to it, but I am open to conversation on it; back and forth sharing of passages and ideas. I could be wrong. I don't deny it. But when people defend their doctrines with "it's obvious if you're not ignorant" and nothing more than "I said" sort of arguments, it makes it rather clear that they are clinging to a preconceived system rather than being open to what scripture is actually saying. That hardly induces one to believe anything other than 'reason has left the building'.

 

[Davy]

There's been attempted revisionism of the early Church Father's writings in trying to insert a pre-trib rapture theory where none existed. Pseudo-Ephraim is one of their examples, but in actuality Pseudo-Ephraim doesn't show any such pre-trib rapture idea. The main point, it has to be able to show the doctrine was taught in a Church, and not just in some exploratory student writing.

Some did believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and in any event, we are to look for answers in Scripture, not the ECF. There is no connection to a Tribulation in any of the passages about the Rapture. And bringing Irving, Darby, Scofield, etc. into the discussion simply leads to ad hominem attacks rather than biblical clarity.

The first passage about the Rapture EXCLUDES the Tribulation from any consideration (John 14:1-3):

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If the Tribulation was a necessity for the saints, then Jesus would have said: "Let your heart be troubled, because you will FIRST go through the Tribulation..." Christians should understand that the Tribulation is a period of divine judgments for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

 

[Davy]

Does that mean you agree, disagree, or indifferent?