The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[bbyrd009]

i often help ppl convert "real estate" into land; a process fraught with intrigue and even danger, as the process is by no means a guarantee that one will have any land, after spending roughly $50-75,000 to try and find out. And i can't help but be minded of when a client first comes to me, all puffed up with their 50 or 500 acres of "land," that they cannot spit on without some permit or other lol.

These are generally well-to-do types, upper-middle, say, and boy are they incensed when they learn what "real estate" means; and of course i am just the messenger, who owns no real estate. How they know this i do not know, but for whatever reason, after i get called all kinds of names, usually, "i bet you don't even own any land" is generally one of the things i hear.

And this is the info age, right; i mean it isn't as if nothing i am telling them is available on the web, and i even take pains to ref public law as i am explaining to them that they don't own any "land." Which usually does not matter a whit.

i guess i can admit at this point that early in this career i likely had some (well hidden) delight in telling them the truth; but that is long gone now, and i have learned better ways to break the truth to them; even though the truth has not changed.

i hope i can someday get there with this subject, and sorry for my inadequacies here, christiang, i hold no animosity ok.

 

[mjrhealth]

------Is it your opinion that it is ok with the Father and Christ that believers can continue to knowingly sin because Christ already paid the ticket for every sin they will ever commit?-----

Why are you so frustrated, those who live by teh law will die by the law for they have no grace, you have forsaken all that Christ has done to prove yourself worthy, no longer is it a free gift, but like so many, you are determined to pay teh price, as if what Jesus did was not enough, seems to be a common theme in christians. And you will lik all men knowingly sin because we are in teh flesh and know as long as we are in this flesh we will sin. Never met a christian that does not sin and never will no matter how they "claim" to keep the law, which they do not because they continualy break them daily. And by teh way, God and Jesus have no problems with me, could care less wheter you do or not.

 

[mjrhealth]

With men it is impossible to stop sinning, but with God all things are possible. How does God make it possible for men to stop sinning? By his holy spirit - that's the only way it is possible, which is a righteousness that comes from God

Andse while you are telling me all this there are many who have being before God, walked with Jesus and are friends of Jesus, because they have put on His righteousness and not there own, nothing they have done, still the same people, they just have faith in what Jesus did and Gods plan. And stil you wont answer teh question, do you not still sin???

 

[mjrhealth]

So for you who are sinning and believe you are without the law you will also perish without the law

And have you stopped sinning???

 

[Richard_oti]

don't boil a kid in its mother's milk


honey, we're killing the kids

In honey? Hmm, honey boiled kids, who'd a thunk.

 

[Richard_oti]

You have not sufficiently explained why this command should not be obeyed literally. Other commands, such not observing festivals, can be sufficiently explained as shadow commands which are now fulfilled differently, and even refraining from certain meats can be sufficiently explained with "all moving things shall be food for you" when God spoke to Noah, which automatically discards abstaining from any meats. But, why should this specific command of not boiling meat in milk be changed?

Hi ChristianG,

It's "me" again. You start out above saying to @bbyrd009 that he has not explained why that command should not be obeyed literally. To literally obey it, is to not boil a kid in it's mother's milk. As I believe it was @KBCid pointed out, it would be abominable to boil a kid in the very milk that was intended to give it life.

But to not store meat and milk on the same shelf, to not have cheese upon a burger, or to not have a glass of milk with a burger, that is adding to the command what is not there. That is taking something as simple as do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, and making it ridiculous.

I do understand and even appreciate your desire to obey YHVH. I am reminded of the Pharisees coming to Jesus and asking, why do your disciples transgress the "tradition" of the elders and not wash their hands before they eat.

To not store milk and cheese together, comes down from that same source. Who shall you obey? YHVH, or the "traditions" or men?

Mar 7:7 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. 8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. ... 13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do.

Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:


I have read many of your posts, I have read several of your "studies", I have come to know a little about you through that which you have written. In your response above, you use one line from Bere'shit 9 to justify to yourself that you need not make a distinction between that which is "clean" and that which is "unclean". Even though the text clearly demonstrates that Noah knew the difference.

I have watched you use certain to justify to yourself that you need not do this, but you must do that. In effect, you have in doing so, come to pick and choose that which you will, and that which you won't do / uphold / obey.

In this case, with regard to do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, you have chosen to uphold it. But not only that, you have also decided to uphold the "traditions" of men, and taken the upholding of it to an extreme that was never intended within the Instruction of YHVH.

I do feel for you, for you have in effect buried yourself in a quagmire of do's and don'ts that have both added and diminished from the plain Instruction of YHVH. This also is reflected within your studies that I have read. I chose to reply regarding this, because it is a fairly simple item. It is either there, or it is not. To not boil a kid in it's mother's milk is there. To store milk and meat separately is not. To not drink a glass of milk with meat is not. They are foolishness, they are the "traditions" of men, perhaps having an appearance of wisdom, but the reality is that they are nothing but vanity. Yes, I do understand the "why" of them, but men being men, in most things, have to take things to an extreme to either the right or the left. Few find the middle ground, the way that is straight.

I do hope that you find the way. You have a long hard road ahead of you. May YHVH bless you ChristianG.

 

[Richard_oti]

it becomes a parody of the spiritual truth, and while i guess we are not to belittle or mock those with that understanding, we can use it as an indicator of where that person is at spiritually

Indubitably. However, after compassion and attempted genuine discourse. If that one is to belittle or mock in return, then so also does parody come in return from my position. Perhaps I spent too much time amoung the cults of this world and have become all together too jaded. However, that does not also mean that I still do not feel for the person and still have compassion for them. For I see the "indicator(s)" and am moved for that person. The quagmire in which that one has dug themselves so deeply, will be hard to overcome.

<snip>

 

[KBCid]

you got this from christiang? hmm

I got that from observing the replies that skirt the subject.
I have known the truth of the laws for quite some time.
The new covenant is the writing of two laws on the hearts of those who love God and within those two laws hang all the laws of the old covenant and all the expansions Christ brought to the table in the new testament. It is plain, it is simple. God gave only so many laws to be fulfilled as shadows of what was to come and those alone were done away with when the new was put in place.
Anyone who teaches or implies that we are not now held to a higher standard than the Jews were is effectively denying Christ who came to show sinful man the way to live a sinless life with the Spirits help.
Every thing that God did not like before the NT they still don't like in the NT. God doesn't like men using his creations in opposition to what they were made for which is why one should not offend God by boiling the offspring in the life giving milk of their mother. Plain simple understanding of God's will.
Your body is intended by God to be a holy temple for their presence to dwell within. Knowingly persisting in sinning which is the breaking of the new covenants two laws which contain all the OT moral laws along with all the added intent shown by Christ in the NT keeps one from getting the helper who can guide a true believer on the path to righteousness that the believer must commit himself to.

Matt 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

See how easy it is for a believer to state the facts without having to play the skirt the issue game?

 

[KBCid]

Hi ChristianG,

It's "me" again. You start out above saying to @bbyrd009 that he has not explained why that command should not be obeyed literally. To literally obey it, is to not boil a kid in it's mother's milk. As I believe it was @KBCid pointed out, it would be abominable to boil a kid in the very milk that was intended to give it life.

But to not store meat and milk on the same shelf, to not have cheese upon a burger, or to not have a glass of milk with a burger, that is adding to the command what is not there. That is taking something as simple as do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, and making it ridiculous.

I do understand and even appreciate your desire to obey YHVH. I am reminded of the Pharisees coming to Jesus and asking, why do your disciples transgress the "tradition" of the elders and not wash their hands before they eat.....

.....In this case, with regard to do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, you have chosen to uphold it. But not only that, you have also decided to uphold the "traditions" of men, and taken the upholding of it to an extreme that was never intended within the Instruction of YHVH.

I do feel for you, for you have in effect buried yourself in a quagmire of do's and don'ts that have both added and diminished from the plain Instruction of YHVH. This also is reflected within your studies that I have read. I chose to reply regarding this, because it is a fairly simple item. It is either there, or it is not. To not boil a kid in it's mother's milk is there. To store milk and meat separately is not. To not drink a glass of milk with meat is not. They are foolishness, they are the "traditions" of men, perhaps having an appearance of wisdom, but the reality is that they are nothing but vanity. Yes, I do understand the "why" of them, but men being men, in most things, have to take things to an extreme to either the right or the left. Few find the middle ground, the way that is straight.

I can but underscore the truth as God intended it. May God continue to bless your way Richard as it is evident that you follow the narrow path.

 

[Richard_oti]

I can but underscore the truth as God intended it. May God continue to bless your way Richard as it is evident that you follow the narrow path.

And you also ...

 

[KBCid]

Why are you so frustrated, those who live by teh law will die by the law for they have no grace, you have forsaken all that Christ has done to prove yourself worthy, no longer is it a free gift, but like so many, you are determined to pay teh price, as if what Jesus did was not enough, seems to be a common theme in christians. And you will lik all men knowingly sin because we are in teh flesh and know as long as we are in this flesh we will sin. Never met a christian that does not sin and never will no matter how they "claim" to keep the law, which they do not because they continualy break them daily. And by teh way, God and Jesus have no problems with me, could care less wheter you do or not.

The salvation gift is always free to those God gives it to. Sinning is also a free choice. Your POV is that if the gift Is free then I don't have to do anything and this is error. God calls all men to be righteous and even sent His Son to show sinful man that there is a way to be righteous...............................

YOU COMMIT TO IT AND THE SPIRIT WILL HELP GUIDE YOU ON THE PATH.

Denying that man can attain a righteous state by being committed and working with the HS for that goal denies everything that Christ same into this world of flesh to show us and is thus anti Christ.

 

[kiwimac]

How can it not be, for if the Gentiles are under the power of sin, how can the Law that defines everything that is sin not apply also to Gentiles? What you have spoken is nonsensical, and it really boils down to you not wanting to obey the Law, because many people such as yourself abhor the Law, so you twist scriptures to try to discard it far away from you, when there are plain scriptures that teach that the Law has not been abolished.

The Torah makes it quite clear that the Law of Moses was given to Israel but that the Gentiles kept the Noahide commands. Moses'law was NEVER for the gentiles.

 

[mjrhealth]

The salvation gift is always free to those God gives it to. Sinning is also a free choice. Your POV is that if the gift Is free then I don't have to do anything and this is error. God calls all men to be righteous and even sent His Son to show sinful man that there is a way to be righteous...............................

YOU COMMIT TO IT AND THE SPIRIT WILL HELP GUIDE YOU ON THE PATH.

Denying that man can attain a righteous state by being committed and working with the HS for that goal denies everything that Christ same into this world of flesh to show us and is thus anti Christ.

Going round the bush, all men sin, regardless of being in Christ or not, teh only one who did not sin is Christ, there will never be man ever like Him again. And as i said, while you are here carrying on, people who still sin, are visiting God and Jesus in heaven, because they have put on His rightousness and God sees them thorough His son not as they are. You are missing out on the best things of God while on the earth simply becasue you wont give Him 5 minutes of your time.

Exo_33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

God and Jesus have so few friends, friends spend time with there friends not reading books about them.

We have a friend in Him dont leave Him out

 

[KBCid]

The Torah makes it quite clear that the Law of Moses was given to Israel but that the Gentiles kept the Noahide commands. Moses'law was NEVER for the gentiles.

NEVER is a strong supposition.
If as you assert that the laws of Moses were never for the gentiles then how was it possible for gentiles to join with the Israelites? Here is just a sampling of God's intent that all will live according to one law.

Leviticus 18:26 But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
Lev 19:34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.
Lev 24:16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
Lev 24:24 There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Exodus 12:19 Seven days there shall be no leaven found in your houses; for whoever eats what is leavened, that person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is an alien or a native of the land.
Ex 12:48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Num 15:14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Deuteronomy 24:14"You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

It is also taught by Christ that the same two royal laws he referenced from the OT were the foundational laws of the NT covenant.

Matt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The word of God came through the Jews to the gentiles. Christ is a Jew and the two greatest commandments that are to be written in the heart of a believer whether Jew or gentile will be the same just as they have always been intended to be for those who desire to live in God's kingdom under Their rule.

 

[Dcopymope]

NEVER is a strong supposition.
If as you assert that the laws of Moses were never for the gentiles then how was it possible for gentiles to join with the Israelites? Here is just a sampling of God's intent that all will live according to one law.

Leviticus 18:26 But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
Lev 19:34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.
Lev 24:16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
Lev 24:24 There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"
Exodus 12:19 Seven days there shall be no leaven found in your houses; for whoever eats what is leavened, that person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is an alien or a native of the land.
Ex 12:48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Num 15:14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Deuteronomy 24:14"You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

It is also taught by Christ that the same two royal laws he referenced from the OT were the foundational laws of the NT covenant.

Matt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The word of God came through the Jews to the gentiles. Christ is a Jew and the two greatest commandments that are to be written in the heart of a believer whether Jew or gentile will be the same just as they have always been intended to be for those who desire to live in God's kingdom under Their rule.

HA!!!! Leviticus laying the smack down on the anti-lawdites (as I call them) yet again.

 

[jaybird]

i often help ppl convert "real estate" into land; a process fraught with intrigue and even danger, as the process is by no means a guarantee that one will have any land, after spending roughly $50-75,000 to try and find out. And i can't help but be minded of when a client first comes to me, all puffed up with their 50 or 500 acres of "land," that they cannot spit on without some permit or other lol.

These are generally well-to-do types, upper-middle, say, and boy are they incensed when they learn what "real estate" means; and of course i am just the messenger, who owns no real estate. How they know this i do not know, but for whatever reason, after i get called all kinds of names, usually, "i bet you don't even own any land" is generally one of the things i hear.

And this is the info age, right; i mean it isn't as if nothing i am telling them is available on the web, and i even take pains to ref public law as i am explaining to them that they don't own any "land." Which usually does not matter a whit.

i guess i can admit at this point that early in this career i likely had some (well hidden) delight in telling them the truth; but that is long gone now, and i have learned better ways to break the truth to them; even though the truth has not changed.

i hope i can someday get there with this subject, and sorry for my inadequacies here, christiang, i hold no animosity ok.

i thought land was real estate? dont feel bad i dont own any real estate either. its better to never have had land than to have possessed it and had it taken from you.

 

[christiang]

You are arguing with the Stephen Segal mindset.... all men are above the law. God doesn't require anyone to obey anything as long as they can get in their Cadillac's and make it through the salvation drive thru of Mcdowells. Anyone asserting that there are laws are held in derision and odd since very honorable men told them all they need to do is believe and poof you can now do anything you want cause there aren't any rules....
Peter Pan lives in the hearts of many.

Clearly if Jesus Christ taught "stop sinning" then he is implying obedience to certain commands. Salvation isn't simply believe and live however you want and continue sinning. No no no, it is belief, AND obedience. Obedience to what? The Law of God, where Jesus Christ said, "I did not come to abolish the Law". He didn't come to condemn us to death, as the Law demands, but to bring mercy, and call sinners, to repentance, which means to turn and begin to obey the Law. But do not think for one minute that condemnation of the Law will not eventually come, because the second coming of Jesus Christ will no longer bring mercy, but condemnation and destruction. Obey now, before it is too late. Stop being stupid and finding ways to not obey the Law of God, you do so to your own destruction.

 

[christiang]

Andse while you are telling me all this there are many who have being before God, walked with Jesus and are friends of Jesus, because they have put on His righteousness and not there own, nothing they have done, still the same people, they just have faith in what Jesus did and Gods plan. And stil you wont answer teh question, do you not still sin???

If you are still sinning then you are not righteous. Claiming to be righteous doesn't make you righteous, obedience to the commands of God by actions make you righteous. Even Abraham, who believed, proved his righteousness that was imputed on him with actions. And indeed righteousness is granted not because of anything anyone has done, yet not because actions are not necessary, but because God has predestined who will be saved, so it is not from he who wills or runs, but he who God chose to grant mercy on. You not only lack knowledge in the necessity of obedience to the Law of God, but also the predestination of God.

 

[christiang]

Hi ChristianG,

It's "me" again. You start out above saying to @bbyrd009 that he has not explained why that command should not be obeyed literally. To literally obey it, is to not boil a kid in it's mother's milk. As I believe it was @KBCid pointed out, it would be abominable to boil a kid in the very milk that was intended to give it life.

But to not store meat and milk on the same shelf, to not have cheese upon a burger, or to not have a glass of milk with a burger, that is adding to the command what is not there. That is taking something as simple as do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, and making it ridiculous.

I do understand and even appreciate your desire to obey YHVH. I am reminded of the Pharisees coming to Jesus and asking, why do your disciples transgress the "tradition" of the elders and not wash their hands before they eat.

To not store milk and cheese together, comes down from that same source. Who shall you obey? YHVH, or the "traditions" or men?

Mar 7:7 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. 8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. ... 13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do.

Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:


I have read many of your posts, I have read several of your "studies", I have come to know a little about you through that which you have written. In your response above, you use one line from Bere'shit 9 to justify to yourself that you need not make a distinction between that which is "clean" and that which is "unclean". Even though the text clearly demonstrates that Noah knew the difference.

I have watched you use certain to justify to yourself that you need not do this, but you must do that. In effect, you have in doing so, come to pick and choose that which you will, and that which you won't do / uphold / obey.

In this case, with regard to do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, you have chosen to uphold it. But not only that, you have also decided to uphold the "traditions" of men, and taken the upholding of it to an extreme that was never intended within the Instruction of YHVH.

I do feel for you, for you have in effect buried yourself in a quagmire of do's and don'ts that have both added and diminished from the plain Instruction of YHVH. This also is reflected within your studies that I have read. I chose to reply regarding this, because it is a fairly simple item. It is either there, or it is not. To not boil a kid in it's mother's milk is there. To store milk and meat separately is not. To not drink a glass of milk with meat is not. They are foolishness, they are the "traditions" of men, perhaps having an appearance of wisdom, but the reality is that they are nothing but vanity. Yes, I do understand the "why" of them, but men being men, in most things, have to take things to an extreme to either the right or the left. Few find the middle ground, the way that is straight.

I do hope that you find the way. You have a long hard road ahead of you. May YHVH bless you ChristianG.

There is no command in the Law that you must wash your hands before eating. As such, that is a tradition of men, not a command of God. The Jews of today also wear Kippah, that is a tradition of men, not a command of God. The Jews also celebrate Purim, that is a tradition of men established in the book of Esther, not a command of God established in the Law of God. Separating meat and cheese, however, is indeed a command of God, because it comes from "do not boil a kid in milk". If consuming the mere blood of animals is sin, which provides nourishment to the flesh, why should it come as a surprise that milk, that provides nourishment to the flesh, not also have special handling restrictions by God? Is it such a burden to separate milk and cheese? Are there not plenty other options of food out there? Even many Gentile believers grumble and complain about not wanting to completely drain their steaks of blood, which is sin to consume. These commands are not figurative people, they are literal, as literal as, "you shall not eat the blood", "you shall not murder", "you shall not steal".

 

[christiang]

The Torah makes it quite clear that the Law of Moses was given to Israel but that the Gentiles kept the Noahide commands. Moses'law was NEVER for the gentiles.

Oh, which of these "Noahide" commands tells us not to murder, or that a man shall not sleep with a man, which we all know are sin? Do tell us, I am not aware of a Law, which are a set of commands, given to Noah. There is a distinction between a command given, and a Law given. A law is a set of commands. In America, we have a law for taxes, it's called the IRS tax code. How many rules and regulations do you suppose are therein? Thousands perhaps. In this same regard, there exists one complete Law that was ever given to man, and it is the Law of Moses. Not even Jesus Christ came and brought a Law to us, where we can say, "oh, these are the rules and regulations of Jesus Christ that we must obey". No, he came confirming the Law that already existed, hence, "I did not come to abolish the Law", and changed this Law when he became high priest by changing how certain commands of this existing Law are observed, such as festivals and Sabbaths and circumcision. But this change is NOT, I repeat, NOT, an abolishment of that previous Law.