The Law of Moses-Ten Commandments or God's Laws

[stunnedbygrace]

So can you give me a scripture please where God authorises stealing. After all, the ten commandments ended with the new covenant according to you right?

they didn't end. Trying to follow them ended-it's the end of the law for righteousness, not the end of the law. Now there is the new and lifegiving way of the Spirit, which doesn't lead to lawbreaking!
If you love your neighbor as yourself by the help of the Spirit in you, you will not steal from anyone. And if you do, you have an Advocate, and will be led to repentance.

 

[brakelite]

they didn't end. Trying to follow them ended-it's the end of the law for righteousness, not the end of the law. Now there is the new and lifegiving way of the Spirit, which doesn't lead to lawbreaking!
If you love your neighbor as yourself by the help of the Spirit in you, you will not steal from anyone. And if you do, you have an Advocate, and will be led to repentance.

Thankyou. I agree. And our love for God leads us to refrain from worshipping idols, and taking the holiness from His name right?
Could it love for God also lead us to have great respect for the bodies he had so graciously died for, and want to keep them in peak physical and mental condition so as to be of greater service for him? If true, why is it that people who advocate for a healthy diet as the Manufacturer intended, are designated cultists? The same could be said for the Sabbath. God says keep holy His day. So out of love for him and respect for his desires we honour the Sabbath, we are told "oh, that is old covenant... The laws no longer apply etc etc etc. " I see a double standard here... Great when the commands are amenable, but when it costs something, like reputation... Or money... The excuses and human reasoning replaces the law which you testified never ended.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thankyou. I agree. And our love for God leads us to refrain from worshipping idols, and taking the holiness from His name right?
Could it love for God also lead us to have great respect for the bodies he had so graciously died for, and want to keep them in peak physical and mental condition so as to be of greater service for him? If true, why is it that people who advocate for a healthy diet as the Manufacturer intended, are designated cultists? The same could be said for the Sabbath. God says keep holy His day. So out of love for him and respect for his desires we honour the Sabbath, we are told "oh, that is old covenant... The laws no longer apply etc etc etc. " I see a double standard here... Great when the commands are amenable, but when it costs something, like reputation... Or money... The excuses and human reasoning replaces the law which you testified never ended.

I do hear you, but God has also said, through the apostle, that one man considers a certain day holy and another considers every day holy and each should be convinced in his own mind. And also has said to not let anyone condemn us over what we eat or drink, or because of a certain festival or sabbath day.

So, this shows a certain freedom in Christ. But neither man should condemn the other. Just as you should not condemn another brother for what he eats or over a certain day, neither should he condemn you for doing what you are convinced is good. He eats what he does with thankfulness and so do you and He worships God and gives all glory to God just as you do.

Men need to keep their noses out of each other's dealings with God and live a quiet and peaceful life.

 

[brakelite]

I do hear you, but God has also said, through the apostle, that one man considers a certain day holy and another considers every day holy and each should be convinced in his own mind. And also has said to not let anyone condemn us over what we eat or drink, or because of a certain festival or sabbath day.

So, this shows a certain freedom in Christ. But neither man should condemn the other. Just as you should not condemn another brother for what he eats or over a certain day, neither should he condemn you for doing what you are convinced is good. He eats what he does with thankfulness and so do you and He worships God and gives all glory to God just as you do.

Men need to keep their noses out of each other's dealings with God and live a quiet and peaceful life.

I don't think Paul was saying that we can consider different days holy and all be right. It is God who made just one day holy, sanctified that one day, and did this for the express purpose of both man and God spending time with one another without distraction. That blessing does not apply to any other day...regardless of what man thinks. Now sure, you may choose to ignore that, but by doing so you are limiting what God has established as a holy day to a day like any other. The consequences of doing so are something you will one day have to wrestle with. I am not talking about condemnation...just simply repeating what the Bible teaches...and what man, on his own authority, and not God's as some suggest, has changed. Or attempted to. Those holy days that Paul is speaking of are not the weekly Sabbath.
As for diet. Eat what you like. I condemn nobody for what they eat. The mirror, the numerous bottles of tablets and drugs in the bedside cabinet, or the surgery table will do that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I tisked and sighed at the same time.

It's enough BL. And hey, at least you don't condemn me.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't think Paul was saying that we can consider different days holy and all be right. It is God who made just one day holy, sanctified that one day, and did this for the express purpose of both man and God spending time with one another without distraction. That blessing does not apply to any other day...regardless of what man thinks. Now sure, you may choose to ignore that, but by doing so you are limiting what God has established as a holy day to a day like any other. The consequences of doing so are something you will one day have to wrestle with. I am not talking about condemnation...just simply repeating what the Bible teaches...and what man, on his own authority, and not God's as some suggest, has changed. Or attempted to. Those holy days that Paul is speaking of are not the weekly Sabbath.
As for diet. Eat what you like. I condemn nobody for what they eat. The mirror, the numerous bottles of tablets and drugs in the bedside cabinet, or the surgery table will do that.

But what is the emphasis...spending time with God...or doing it on a certain day? Does spending time with God on a different day not count somehow in your estimation?

 

[quietthinker]

And hey, at least you don't condemn me.

It seems condemnation is the primary concern in much that is posted. The prickly attitude displayed is its testimony.
I thought it went without saying that a different opinion or view does not equate to condemnation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It seems this is the primary concern, condemnation.
I thought it went without saying that a different opinion or view does not equate to condemnation.

I would hope so, but I see it from both sides. Remarks like... " "idolater," or " okay, remain in your ignorance, " or " you will have to answer for your idolatry" are not good.

But I came back to add: neither are charges of "unsaved" or "haven t received the Spirit" very good.

Both sides do their own condemning.

 

[brakelite]

Bottom line. God made a day holy at creation.. Before sin entered the world God established a day for mankind to rest from his labours, as God did from His. Even before Adam had done any work, God gave him a day in which he and God shared time.
This doesn't take anything away from time spent with God on Tuesday or Thursday. That isn't the issue. The issue is that regardless of what we do any other day of the week, God wants our time on the Sabbath. He wants to be with us on the Sabbath. All 24 hours. Issues of condemnation... Rest in Christ... Legalism...7 day a week worship... Whatever, are simply red herrings to avoid the real crux of the matter. The 4th commandment which clearly asks us to keep the 7th day holy.

 

[brakelite]

I would hope so, but I see it from both sides. Remarks like... " "idolater," or " okay, remain in your ignorance, " or " you will have to answer for your idolatry" are not good.

But I came back to add: neither are charges of "unsaved" or "haven t received the Spirit" very good.

Both sides do their own condemning.

Dont mistake condemnation for conviction. If someone believes one thing and you another, and they cannot both be correct, your discomfort does not necessarily mean you stand condemned... But nor does any lack of condemnation mean lack of conviction or need to change.
The 4 th commandment stands is it reads. It has already been established on this thread that the ten commandments, all ten, have not been abrogated, done away with, nailed to a cross, or reduced in obligation. It has also been demonstrated elsewhere many times that there is no scriptural foundation for Sunday observance, notwithstanding the sincerity of those who believe there is. Introducing motive and/or feelings of guilt... Condemnation... Is simply mudding the waters. Regardless of whether the majority of Christians observe Sunday... Regardless of whether many claim to have no preference for any day but "rest in Christ" (yet likely attend church services on Sunday anyway)... The fact remains that God made holy the 7th day. The question is, are we keeping it holy as he asks us to. And if not, why not? We don't question any of the other commandments, why do we question this one? Whose authority do we surrender to? God says keep holy My day. The church says keep holy Sunday. Individuals here and there say keep holy any day. Others say it doesn't matter. What do you say?

 

[FHII]

We are not under the law to obey the sabbath. Col2:16. The 10 commandments have been abolished and done away with. 2 Cor 3. There is a Sunday observance. Not a commandment for today, bit certainly a presidence was set in the NT. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Dont mistake condemnation for conviction. If someone believes one thing and you another, and they cannot both be correct, your discomfort does not necessarily mean you stand condemned... But nor does any lack of condemnation mean lack of conviction or need to change.
The 4 th commandment stands is it reads. It has already been established on this thread that the ten commandments, all ten, have not been abrogated, done away with, nailed to a cross, or reduced in obligation. It has also been demonstrated elsewhere many times that there is no scriptural foundation for Sunday observance, notwithstanding the sincerity of those who believe there is. Introducing motive and/or feelings of guilt... Condemnation... Is simply mudding the waters. Regardless of whether the majority of Christians observe Sunday... Regardless of whether many claim to have no preference for any day but "rest in Christ" (yet likely attend church services on Sunday anyway)... The fact remains that God made holy the 7th day. The question is, are we keeping it holy as he asks us to. And if not, why not? We don't question any of the other commandments, why do we question this one? Whose authority do we surrender to? God says keep holy My day. The church says keep holy Sunday. Individuals here and there say keep holy any day. Others say it doesn't matter. What do you say?

I say that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness and that I follow the new and lifegiving way of the Spirit, against which there is no law. If I follow the Spirit, there is no law against that. I say that if I have no anger in my heart, I fulfill the law not to murder, because nothing has come from out of my heart to defile me. I say if I worship Him in spirit and truth, there IS no law against that. In fact that is what He is looking for - men who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

I know you do not understand me. I believe that one day you may understand.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We are not under the law to obey the sabbath. Col2:16. The 10 commandments have been abolished and done away with. 2 Cor 3. There is a Sunday observance. Not a commandment for today, bit certainly a presidence was set in the NT. Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2.

He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets. He came to fulfill that law in each of us. So anyone who keeps the law in spirit and truth and teaches others to do so will be called greatest in the kingdom.

 

[Stumpmaster]

He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets. He came to fulfill that law in each of us. So anyone who keeps the law in spirit and truth and teaches others to do so will be called greatest in the kingdom.

Exactly...
Rom 8:3-4
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I wish I could like your post more than once. Great verse to bring in. Everyone loves an apt reply!

 

[brakelite]

I say that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness and that I follow the new and lifegiving way of the Spirit, against which there is no law. If I follow the Spirit, there is no law against that. I say that if I have no anger in my heart, I fulfill the law not to murder, because nothing has come from out of my heart to defile me. I say if I worship Him in spirit and truth, there IS no law against that. In fact that is what He is looking for - men who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

I know you do not understand me. I believe that one day you may understand.

You and I are actually saying the same thing... Walk in the Spirit and the lusts of the flesh have no power over us, therefore we overcome. By faith in the power and grace of God, we also fulfill the law as our Master did.
What I differ with you on is your contention that when scripture declares that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, that the obligation to obey the law ends. What I believe that scripture is actually telling us is that the law and the prophets, the entire OT package, found its fulfillment, it's purpose, its goal, in Christ. Thus Christ was the end, the ultimate destination, the final achievement and satisfaction of the law, met in the life, death, resurrection and High Priestly ministry of Christ. (John 5:39; Luke 24:44-48)
Nothing in the law itself, nor in its obligatory requirements, has changed. (Matthew 5:17) What had changed is the means by which it is administered. The very same law that was written on the tables of stone at Sinai is now written on our hearts. The righteousness of the law becomes a gift. (Romans 8:4) The fulfilling of the law by individual believers becomes evidence of their relationship with their Saviour.
By the way. This is not just a new covenant concept. This God could do from the beginning... It was Israel's constant error to believe that they, without God, could be obedient to his commandments. (Romans 10:3). Today there is within the church the opposite error... That even with God obedience is impossible.
(Isaiah 51:7).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have not said to obey the law has ended.

But let me ask you this- if I have no anger in my heart, what law is it that you think I say it is okay to break? what law have i brok en?

And if I worship God in spirit and truth, what law is it you say I have broken or am saying it is okay to break? the day is come when it does not matter where I worship. God seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

this is the message you need to hear from Paul - that the day is coming when God will judge everyone's secret life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If the inside of the cup is clean, the outside is as well. Let no man call unclean what God has called clean.

if you preach the law, has your righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the pharisees?

 

[quietthinker]

I have not said to obey the law has ended.

But let me ask you this- if I have no anger in my heart, what law is it that you think I say it is okay to break? what law have i brok en?

And if I worship God in spirit and truth, what law is it you say I have broken or am saying it is okay to break? the day is come when it does not matter where I worship. God seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

this is the message you need to hear from Paul - that the day is coming when God will judge everyone's secret life.

I can only imagine that those opposed to the law would argue against it

 

[amadeus]

I am having a bit of difficulty with understanding the difference....and the different posts here seem to contradict what one is saying over another....or I am just plain stupid and can't see the trees through the forest! lol.

Who is NOT now still seeing through a glass darkly at least in some things?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Who has already arrived at the "face to face" vision on every point?