The law that "was added because of transgressions" cannot be referring to the commandments.

[VictoryinJesus]

You're conflating what was inside the ark with what is beside the ark. The new heart is not beside the ark. What was written on stones could not compel them to keep the law, but when those same laws are written on one's heart, then what was "BESIDE" the ark is no longer necessary.

You're conflating two separate issues. The commandments, and the ordinances that were against those who broke the commandments are distinguished from each other, and those same commandments which are later written on the hearts of God's people, and which no longer requires the ordinances against them.

maybe so. Never said it was beside the Ark...only no longer chiseled into stone but written in flesh tables where the stone has been removed and a new heart of flesh Is given.

 

[shnarkle]

maybe so. Never said it was beside the Ark...only no longer chiseled into stone but written in flesh tables where the stone has been removed and a new heart of flesh Is given.

The stone is not removed. The law is not removed. The commandments are not removed. The only thing that is removed is sin which renders the "law that was against us" redundant. The law that was against us was not the law that was chiseled into stone, or the law that is written on our hearts.

The difference is that the former was kept by one's own will and effort whereas the latter is kept because the new creation is created to keep God's commandments. Just like a fish is created to breathe through its gills under water.

 

[farouk]

The law was changed (Hebrews 7.12).

What we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The stone is not removed. The law is not removed. The commandments are not removed. The only thing that is removed is sin which renders the "law that was against us" redundant. The law that was against us was not the law that was chiseled into stone, or the law that is written on our hearts.

The difference is that the former was kept by one's own will and effort whereas the latter is kept because the new creation is created to keep God's commandments. Just like a fish is created to breathe through its gills under water.

“The stone is not removed.” His resurrection and the great stone rolled away says different.

point was you can’t keep the letter which kills “chiseled in stone” within the Ark and call it Life. 2 Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

 

[shnarkle]

“The stone is not removed.” His resurrection and the great stone rolled away says different.

Sure if you mean that those who keep God's law cannot be held by death, but if you think the stone that covers a tomb represents God's commandments that's the antithesis of what the bible says. "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them" Leviticus 18:5

"For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Romans 10:5

point was you can’t keep the letter which kills “chiseled in stone” within the Ark and call it Life.

That was never my point.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Pay close attention to the fact that the subject is the "ministration". Forget about what it's written on because it's how it's administered which is the point. The law is the same law. The law that says, "Do not commit adultery" on stones is the same law written on one's heart. It's administered, not by will or effort, but by God writing it on one's heart which enables them to keep all of God's commandments perfectly.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Pay close attention to the fact that the subject is the "ministration". Forget about what it's written on because it's how it's administered which is the point. The law is the same law. The law that says, "Do not commit adultery" on stones is the same law written on one's heart.

Understand what you mean beside in Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

but in the OP you pointed out, unless I’ve misunderstood you, that “chiseled in stone” was within the Ark. as a assertion of those commands within the Ark as opposed to what is beside. The heart is the matter which is reason for “that it may be there for a witness against thee.” Point is the heart within the Ark ....whether stone or a new heart given of God is necessary. “Chiseled in stone” will not do what you said of keeping the Law and “chiseled in stone” is not the ministration of Spirit but of death where man does not keep God’s commands. Man’s own righteousness Paul spoke of. The heart within the Ark matters. It is not “Chiseled in stone” but the new heart Created (a new creature)where His Righteous Law is written by the Spirit of God and this heart is where God said they will “do them” and keep My ordinances and statures and walk in them. God tells us that it won’t prosper written (Chiseled in a stony heart), that it fails. this is seen in the parable of the seed sown on a stony ground and endures for a time but when Persecution arises for the Sake of the Word they are offended. It all hinges on that old way of making man righteous of His own could not make one “perfect“....God has already said what is perfect in: be perfect as your Father is perfect.

If the proof you offer is the “chiseled in stone” within the Ark as commands, then you have tried to present a heart of stone where His Law is chiseled as the new heart...not beside the Art but within. “Beside” is for a witness of the heart within...either stone or the new heart given of God (I will give them one heart)which is the only good ground which springs forth of the fruit of righteousness (God’s righteousness) and fails not and endures til the end. Christ is the Ark...and within is Spirit...the ministration of the Spirit not written on stones. Paul would be an example of a stony heart which ...when the Law came it slew him...the strength of sin being the righteousness of man in his attempts to be Prosper in righteousness but the word said it lacked (was death)and therefore a better hope was given Life. Within Christ who is the true Ark there is Life...the new creation...no “Chiseled in stone” as that which is beside is a witness of the condition of His Heart. “Blessed”

“Pay close attention to the fact that the subject is the "ministration". Forget about what it's written on because it's how it's administered which is the point. The law is the same law. The law that says, "Do not commit adultery" on stones is the same law written on one's heart.”

the law may be the same but the heart is not. The stony heart is removed. A new heart given. the Spirt within.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sure if you mean that those who keep God's law cannot be held by death, but if you think the stone that covers a tomb represents God's commandments that's the antithesis of what the bible says. "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them" Leviticus 18:5

"For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." Romans 10:5



That was never my point.



Pay close attention to the fact that the subject is the "ministration". Forget about what it's written on because it's how it's administered which is the point. The law is the same law. The law that says, "Do not commit adultery" on stones is the same law written on one's heart. It's administered, not by will or effort, but by God writing it on one's heart which enables them to keep all of God's commandments perfectly.

Mark 4:16-17 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

when persecution and affliction arises for the sake of Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

they are offended and do not keep the righteousness of the Law or God’s righteousness but fall away ....that which is beside as a witness they do not do them...His commandments. You can’t make the stony heart as the New ....when the New Heart is Christ: one heart, one mind, Spirit of God within. One voice “Not my will. God’s will be done.”

 

[shnarkle]

Understand what you mean beside in Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

but in the OP you pointed out, unless I’ve misunderstood you, that “chiseled in stone” was within the Ark. as a assertion of those commands within the Ark as opposed to what is beside. The heart is the matter which is reason for “that it may be there for a witness against thee.” Point is the heart within the Ark ....whether stone or a new heart given of God is necessary. “Chiseled in stone” will not do what you said of keeping the Law and “chiseled in stone” is not the ministration of Spirit but of death where man does not keep God’s commands. Man’s own righteousness Paul spoke of. The heart within the Ark matters. It is not “Chiseled in stone” but the new heart Created (a new creature)where His Righteous Law is written by the Spirit of God and this heart is where God said they will “do them” and keep My ordinances and statures and walk in them. God tells us that it won’t prosper written in a stony heart, that it fails. this is seen in the parable of the seed sown on a stony ground and endures for a time but when Persecution arises for the Sake of the Word they are offended. It all hinges on that old way of making man righteous of His own could not make one “perfect“....God has already said what is perfect in: be perfect as your Father is perfect.

If the proof you offer is the “chiseled in stone” within the Ark as commands, then you have tried to present a heart of stone where His Law is chiseled as the new heart...not beside the Art but within. “Beside” is for a witness of the heart within...either stone or the new heart given of God (I will give them one heart)which is the only good ground which springs forth of the fruit of righteousness (God’s righteousness) and fails not and endures til the end. Christ is the Ark...and within is Spirit...the ministration of the Spirit not written on stones. Paul would be an example of a stony heart which ...when the Law came it slew him...the strength of sin being the righteousness of man in his attempts to be Prosper in righteousness but the word said it lacked (was death)and therefore a better hope was given Life. Within Christ who is the true Ark there is Life...the new creation...no “Chiseled in stone” as that which is beside is a witness of the condition of His Heart. “Blessed”

“Pay close attention to the fact that the subject is the "ministration". Forget about what it's written on because it's how it's administered which is the point. The law is the same law. The law that says, "Do not commit adultery" on stones is the same law written on one's heart.”

the law may be the same but the heart is not. The stony heart is removed. A new heart given. the Spirt within.

The way you construct your sentences as well as your paragraphs is too confusing to follow. It doesn't need to be confusing. There are too many grammatical errors which tend to produce unnecessary ambiguities. Ultimately, it seems you're just restating my position differently, or perhaps making distinctions with no perceptible or effective difference.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The way you construct your sentences as well as your paragraphs is too confusing to follow. It doesn't need to be confusing. There are too many grammatical errors which tend to produce unnecessary ambiguities. Ultimately, it seems you're just restating my position differently, or perhaps making distinctions with no perceptible or effective difference.

”Ultimately, it seems you're just restating my position differently,...” no difference except “chiseled in stone” put within the ark. Do you believe God’s commands are kept from a stony heart? Do you believe the “chiseled in stone” is the New heart ...or the stony heart removed and His Spirit put within the Ark?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

he is explicitly referring to Deuteronomy 31:26 which points out the distinction between the commandments which are INSIDE the Ark which are chisled into STONE, and the laws which are BESIDE the Ark,

how does your position change when that “beside” as witness smote “the commandments which are inside the Ark which are chiseled in stone” ? Witness against the righteousness of man which was (is)Philippians 3:9
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Do not know how clearer that can be ...that “chiseled in stone” was man’s righteousness which the witness beside spoke against and did away with (the great stone; burden of man’s righteousness): for a better hope in the righteousness which is of God. “Chiseled in stone” gone (dead, unprofitable, empty, void and vanity) crucified (smote) and a New heart given “which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith and NOT “chiseled stone”.

 

[shnarkle]

”Ultimately, it seems you're just restating my position differently,...” no difference except “chiseled in stone” put within the ark. Do you believe God’s commands are kept from a stony heart? Do you believe the “chiseled in stone” is the New heart ...or the stony heart removed and His Spirit put within the Ark?

None of the above. It sounds like gibberish. I'm simply pointing out the distinction between God's commandments and the laws that were added to deal with the transgression of God's commandments. Your comments don't seem to have much of anything to do with the topic, and they're confusing as well.

 

[shnarkle]

how does your position change when that “beside” as witness smote...Do not know how clearer that can be ..

I know that whatever you posted probably makes a lot of sense to you, but since it makes little to no sense to anyone else, it is highly unlikely that it needs to be repeated. We have two thousand years of Christian theology that can be quite confusing, but none of it is due to an ignorance of proper grammar, punctuation, etc. Your posts are unnecessarily confusing. If no one can understand them except you, then they're worthless to anyone else except you. No one else cares to entertain what you're posting when it is blatantly incoherent. The fact that it doesn't appear to be addressing the topic of this OP only adds to this sense of apathy.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I know that whatever you posted probably makes a lot of sense to you, but since it makes little to no sense to anyone else, it is highly unlikely that it needs to be repeated. We have two thousand years of Christian theology that can be quite confusing, but none of it is due to an ignorance of proper grammar, punctuation, etc. Your posts are unnecessarily confusing. If no one can understand them except you, then they're worthless to anyone else except you. No one else cares to entertain what you're posting when it is blatantly incoherent. The fact that it doesn't appear to be addressing the topic of this OP only adds to this sense of apathy.

ok. My grammar is poor. That still does not change what is in the Ark matters concerning the condition of the heart. In referencing that which is chiseled in stone put within, is referencing God’s Laws written in stone. Stone being the condition of the heart which does not endure since the condition of this heart is based on man’s righteousness. The very thing God came to do away with. Stone not being the new heart but the heart that God said He would remove...roll away and a new heart given: 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: [5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (stone tables)out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.(ministered, with the Spirit of the Living God).

you said this has nothing to do with your OP but it does in it is no longer chiseled in stone put within, but instead a new spirit will I put within you.

also it matters in a necessity for one to see this stone is not a capital as it speaks concerning a heart founded in man’s righteousness which Paul spoke of as coming by the Law. It has to go(not the Law); the condition of the heart which is why I said God crucified man’s righteousness by taking away its strength and removing the stone. The new heart Is where God writes His Righteous Law with the Spirit of the Living God, it is this heart which keeps the Law. Within the ark there is either “sufficiency in man” or “sufficiently in God alone.”....you can’t have both combining sufficiency in man where the Law was chiseled in stone and call that the new heart given where God’s righteous Law is kept in it is His righteousness and not man’s. “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

so yeah, maybe nobody wants to read it and maybe nobody is interested and it doesn’t profit anyone but, really, you don’t get to decide that.

 

[shnarkle]

ok. My grammar is poor. That still does not change what is in the Ark matters concerning the condition of the heart. In referencing that which is chiseled in stone put within, is referencing God’s Laws written in stone. Stone being the condition of the heart which does not endure since the condition of this heart is based on man’s righteousness. The very thing God came to do away with. Stone not being the new heart but the heart that God said He would remove...roll away and a new heart given: 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: [5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (stone tables)out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.(ministered, with the Spirit of the Living God).

you said this has nothing to do with your OP but it does in it is no longer chiseled in stone put within, but instead a new spirit will I put within you.

also it matters in a necessity for one to see this stone is not a capital as it speaks concerning a heart founded in man’s righteousness which Paul spoke of as coming by the Law. It has to go(not the Law); the condition of the heart which is why I said God crucified man’s righteousness by taking away its strength and removing the stone. The new heart Is where God writes His Righteous Law with the Spirit of the Living God, it is this heart which keeps the Law. Within the ark there is either “sufficiency in man” or “sufficiently in God alone.”....you can’t have both combining sufficiency in man where the Law was chiseled in stone and call that the new heart given where God’s righteous Law is kept in it is His righteousness and not man’s. “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

so yeah, maybe nobody wants to read it and maybe nobody is interested and it doesn’t profit anyone but, really, you don’t get to decide that.

That was better. I could understand what you're saying, but you left out how this relates to the OP. By receiving the new heart, the "law that was added because of transgressions" becomes redundant. There is no need for penalties, or curses when God's commandments are being carried out by faith.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no effective difference between laws which prohibit theft, murder, adultery, etc., and those same laws which have been codified. Codification of laws simply makes them easier to classify, reference, etc.

When Paul claims that the "law which was added because of transgressions" have been done away with, he can't be referring to the commandments themselves because one cannot transgress laws which never existed in the first place. Furthermore, he points out how this takes place: "Those who walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". When there is no sin, there is no necessity to have laws dealing with transgressions anymore. This is the condition under which those who enter into the New Covenent must find themselves.

No one can be under the New Covenant, and continue to sin. The New Covenant only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant.

When Paul refers to "the handwriting of ordinances that were against us", he is explicitly referring to Deuteronomy 31:26 which points out the distinction between the commandments which are INSIDE the Ark which are chisled into STONE, and the laws which are BESIDE the Ark, and are written in a SCROLL. When Israel sinned, the penalty was found in the scroll, but under the New Covenant, no one sins, therefore the scroll is now redundant. No one can be under the curse if they no longer sin. This is only possible for those who have been given a new heart per Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10 All other believers must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin until they are given a new heart as well.

Whenever Paul refers to the law being done away with it is always with regards to establishing righteousness(justification), or the penalty, or curse of the law, and that can only come about through Christ's faith operating in the new creature rather than relying upon one's own will or effort. So Christ and Paul are pointing out that there are two ways to carry out God's will. The Old method which entailed relying upone one's own will and effort verses the New method which is relying upon Christ's faith which cannot fail.

I gave you a like, but in this context I think we should not forget that we will still reap what we sow, and all must still come before the judgment seat to be judged for their works done while in the body

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is no need for penalties, or curses when God's commandments are being carried out by faith.

There it is (imo) in what you said: “being carried out by faith”. Understand you may disagree but that is the reason for bringing up it matters regarding the Ark and whether or not it (the Ark) is the New creation where the stone is removed and a new heart of flesh is given with His Laws written on this heart by the Spirit(and they will do them), not in the heart of stone. God said “I will put a new spirit in you”... Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

...having not received the spirit of bondage again..is why “chiseled in stone” cannot remain for then there is a need for “penalties, or curses” in who so ever continues in this way is condemned already(torment). Consider in the OT where the man took hold of the ark and it killed him. There is a necessity in the Ark of the New creation where conversion takes place and God has removed the spirit of bondage to fear and has put His Spirit within
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

In NOT a heart of stone but His flesh(by Faith in Christ)...His obedience, His sonship, His authority, His Spirit Put within ...a new Spirit not of fear and torment (and bondage) but of a sound mind, of power, and of Love which keeps and walks in His commandments.

 

[shnarkle]

There it is (imo) in what you said: “being carried out by faith”. Understand you may disagree but that is the reason for bringing up it matters regarding the Ark and whether or not it (the Ark) is the New creation where the stone is removed and a new heart of flesh is given with His Laws written on this heart by the Spirit(and they will do them), not in the heart of stone. God said “I will put a new spirit in you”... Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

...having not received the spirit of bondage again..is why “chiseled in stone” cannot remain for then there is a need for “penalties, or curses” in who so ever continues in this way is condemned already(torment). Consider in the OT where the man took hold of the ark and it killed him. There is a necessity in the Ark of the New creation where conversion takes place and God has removed the spirit of bondage to fear and has put His Spirit within
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

In NOT a heart of stone but His flesh(by Faith in Christ)...His obedience, His sonship, His authority, His Spirit Put within ...a new Spirit not of fear and torment (and bondage) but of a sound mind, of power, and of Love which keeps and walks in His commandments.

Again, this is all perfectly fine, but effectively useless unless one points out why what Paul is talking about isn't pointed out which is that the "law that was added because of transgressions"(not to be confused with the stone tablets inside the ark) is done away. More importantly, why it is done away.

The reason I bring this up is because EVERYONE believer, and unbeliever alike will bring up the curses of the law. They will point to the fact that those who violate the law are put to death. They can't help but obsess over the penalties of the law when the new creation has nothing to do with those laws whatsoever. They're not applicable because they're only applicable to those who sin.

No one wants to point that out. What you're saying may be perfectly true, but your sin is one of omission in that it suggests to the depraved and fallen heart that the sin they continue to commit is no longer sin anymore. This is what is missing from your posts.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No one wants to point that out. What you're saying may be perfectly true, but your sin is one of omission in that it suggests to the depraved and fallen heart that the sin they continue to commit is no longer sin anymore. This is what is missing from your posts.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying what is missing is condemnation?

 

[shnarkle]

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying what is missing is condemnation?

No. I'm pointing out not just that there is no condemnation, but why there is no condemnation, as well as to whom this applies. Too many Christians assume that they are no longer under condemnation simple because they can articulate a particular tenet of the faith. This is essentially no different than the conditions of the Old Testament.

I'm pointing out that when Paul says that "the law that was added because of transgressions" , or the "law that was against us" is done away with, he isn't referring to the commandments. He's referring to the schoolmaster, or the system that was put in place to deal with transgressions of the law. That system is no longer necessary for those who no longer sin. Most Christians will admit that they still sin, so those passages are not applicable to them.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm pointing out that when Paul says that "the law that was added because of transgressions" , or the "law that was against us" is done away with, he isn't referring to the commandments. He's referring to the schoolmaster, or the system that was put in place to deal with transgressions of the law. That system is no longer necessary for those who no longer sin. Most Christians will admit that they still sin, so those passages are not applicable to them.

Paul makes it very clear that the law itself IS the schoolmaster which leads us to Christ so that we may be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God, AMPC) by faith.

Gal 3:23-25--But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.