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Featured The law that "was added because of transgressions" cannot be referring to the commandments.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Nov 6, 2019.

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  4. lawlessness

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  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    There is no effective difference between laws which prohibit theft, murder, adultery, etc., and those same laws which have been codified. Codification of laws simply makes them easier to classify, reference, etc.

    When Paul claims that the "law which was added because of transgressions" have been done away with, he can't be referring to the commandments themselves because one cannot transgress laws which never existed in the first place. Furthermore, he points out how this takes place: "Those who walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". When there is no sin, there is no necessity to have laws dealing with transgressions anymore. This is the condition under which those who enter into the New Covenent must find themselves.

    No one can be under the New Covenant, and continue to sin. The New Covenant only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant.

    When Paul refers to "the handwriting of ordinances that were against us", he is explicitly referring to Deuteronomy 31:26 which points out the distinction between the commandments which are INSIDE the Ark which are chisled into STONE, and the laws which are BESIDE the Ark, and are written in a SCROLL. When Israel sinned, the penalty was found in the scroll, but under the New Covenant, no one sins, therefore the scroll is now redundant. No one can be under the curse if they no longer sin. This is only possible for those who have been given a new heart per Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10 All other believers must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin until they are given a new heart as well.

    Whenever Paul refers to the law being done away with it is always with regards to establishing righteousness(justification), or the penalty, or curse of the law, and that can only come about through Christ's faith operating in the new creature rather than relying upon one's own will or effort. So Christ and Paul are pointing out that there are two ways to carry out God's will. The Old method which entailed relying upone one's own will and effort verses the New method which is relying upon Christ's faith which cannot fail.
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

    our righteousness is in Christ Jesus, which leave those not in Christ "FACING" the Law.
    PICJAG.
     
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  3. DeiVindicem

    DeiVindicem Member

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    2 John 1:9
    Whosoever transgresseth,
    and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
    He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,
    he hath both the Father
    and the Son.

    The doctrine of Christ is the only way the only truth and the only life
    that will save you from being in eternal damnation in the lake of fire.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You are seriously misunderstanding and misinterpreting what Paul said in this regard. The Law is primarily the Ten Commandments, and all the other commandments flow from those Ten. Even within the Law of Christ.

    Prior to the Law given at Mount Sinai (which specifically stated what the transgressions were), that Law (the Ten Commandments) was already embedded in the conscience of every person (see Romans 2). But after the Law was given, there was no escaping what was sin and what was not.
     
  5. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    And? What's your point with regards to this topic? Do you agree with the OP, or disagree, and why?
     
  6. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    The righteous requirements of the law haven't changed. What has been changed is our nature, IF we have been born again of the Spirit. Walking after the Spirit never leads us into sin, thus we are not under the written laws. Having them written on our hearts is the meaning of being born again. We no longer have a sin nature or carnal nature; those who have been born again now are partakers of the divine nature. We are no longer sinners, we are children of God.
     
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You continue to persist in your delusions and errors even though you have seen ample Scriptures to refute this. Which means wilful blindness. Children of God do have the divine nature, but they also have the old Adamic nature. Hence the internal conflict.
     
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  8. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Hi Enoch

    There is no internal conflict. Only those under the law without the Spirit have a struggle. That struggle under the law is what Paul described brilliantly in Romans 7, but numbskulls still think Paul is talking about a Christian, when it plainly is about the LAW trying to be kept with an intact sin nature (Romans 7:13). Chapter 8 introduces the SPIRIT. Romans 8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death (as in Romans 7). It also says further that Christ condemned sin in the flesh. That means sin is no longer in our nature because we have been given a new nature. I'm curious what you think being born again means to you?
     
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  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:10-13)

    Does that mean that children of God cannot (and do not) sin? That is your DELUSION, but the apostle John would set you straight, if you would only listen to him (who spoke by the Spirit):

    1 JOHN 1

    5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [YOU ARE DECEIVING YOURSELF]
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [YOU ARE MAKING GOD A LIAR]

     
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  10. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Yes, John did make it very clear.

    John 8:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

    That means free from sin, not free TO sin.

    I think it hilarious that you are still bringing up 1 John 1:8 as if that is a person who has already been cleansed OF ALL SIN. Verse 8 is about a person who believes they were born without sin, and so does verse 10. No, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only Christ that can actually take away our sin completely. No one, but Jesus was born without sin, even Mary. Sorry, Catholics, but holy traditions are not fact.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is PATHETIC on your part to argue with the Holy Spirit. Those who do so will not receive further light. To be cleansed of all sin at the time of justification and the New Birth does not mean that you do not need further cleansing after that. But you are blind to that. Wilfully blind.
     
  12. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Every person on the face of the earth is either a sinner or a child of God, but no one is both.

    Romans 6:
    16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

    22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.



    How many times do we have to go over this. Reason it out. If you are cleansed of all sin permanently, are you still a sinner? If you've been freed from sin, are you still a slave to sin? Get it through your thick skull that you can't be both!

    John again says, 1 John 3:5 Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. Is that temporarily as you claim? That is meant to be permanently, as in being a new creature. That is also what it means to be "free indeed"! That is also why John again says, a Christian cannot sin in 1 John 3:9. You just can't believe it, probably because you believe it is foolishness to acknowledge that Christ has that much power. It is you that is foolish, and spiritually undiscerning. Is it because you, yourself, are not free and still a slave to sin? There is a cure for that; it is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit to become born again. Without the Spirit, no one belongs to Christ. Romans 8:9 So don't wait!
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Ugh...you seem to be clutching at straws, and speaking out of your own mind.

    All the law of God is perfect as God is perfect, all in all.

    It has been summarized by Christ in this way: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”' This is the mind of Christ.

    Do you now mean to make complicated again, what Christ has already made plain?
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    What?

    What more sin is there beyond "all sin?"

    Obviously, the question is rhetorical, and you have made an error. "All" means all.
     
  15. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    The Law has always been in existence just not in its written form. It was added (in a written form) to make sin exceedingly sinful.....a visual bouncing board if you like.
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Ask the apostle John.
     
  17. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Of all the scriptures by John in 1 John 3 and his gospel that contrast a Christian verses a sinner, you chose the two of three verses about the unsaved without the Spirit in chapter 1 to relate to.

    Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.
     
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  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    No need. I am sure John knows the meaning of "all."
     
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    liked your post OP which was interesting although do not completely agree. You said: which are Inside the Ark “chiseled into Stone” or etched...needing to be considered as well In what you shared about needing a new heart...is no longer chiseled in Stone but the new heart.

    A stony heart removed... Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

    “I will give them one heart” ...that one heart being Christ(the mind of Christ). 2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    can’t stay with “which are Inside the Ark “chiseled into Stone” when the stone is removed and a new heart of flesh is given.
     
  20. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    You're conflating what was inside the ark with what is beside the ark. The new heart is not beside the ark. What was written on stones could not compel them to keep the law, but when those same laws are written on one's heart, then what was "BESIDE" the ark is no longer necessary.

    You're conflating two separate issues. The commandments, and the ordinances that were against those who broke the commandments are distinguished from each other, and those same commandments which are later written on the hearts of God's people, and which no longer requires the ordinances against them.
     
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