The left behind

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Copperhead

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I never cease to be amazed at how various individuals can see passages of scripture so differently. That is ok, we each have different perspective and bring different analysis styles to the table.

A childish comment made from being unable to respond to, or rebut my scripturally supported post.

It was something special just for you! The result was exactly as I expected.
 

n2thelight

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Simple counter question, do you truly have a comprehension of what that period will be? Do an in-depth study on what the N. Korean brothers and sisters in the Lord have to endure in the prisons and labor camps. Do a thorough study of what the precious brothers and sisters live through. And that is under the direction of the evil ones. Then see how that compares to what Yeshua said how the great tribulation would eclipse all that has come before it and will be directed by the Next of Kin who is the Avenger of Blood of those who murder... the Father.

But Yeshua said "forgive them for they know not what they do". He claimed we are only guilty of manslaughter and not murder. In the Torah, one guilty of manslaughter (unintended murder) is treated differently. As per the Torah, to still avoid the Avenger of Blood, we must flee to the our city of refuge, which is Yeshua. And we must remain there thru the life of the High Priest, which is also Yeshua who lives forever. Those that do not flee to Yeshua for protection, will come under the hand of the Avenger of Blood. And anger has not been realized to the level that the Father is angered over the rejection and killing of His Son.

The Torah and the Prophets were written of Yeshua. Every detail for our learning. And Isaiah give us some insight...

Isaiah 26:2 Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Which Paul described....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Which Yeshua affirmed in.....

John 14:2-3 There are many rooms in my Father’s house. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I am going away to prepare a place for you, I will come back again and welcome you into my presence, so that you may be where I am.

Oh yeah! Come quickly Yeshua, our Hope and our Redeemer, and gather your people!

I understand all that however the bottom line is death,which Christ said not to fear. Do you understand that there are 2 tribulations?Do you understand that the first one is all about deception and not death and destruction.
When they say peace, then what ,bam!Christ returns!!
It's a battle 4 your soul,not your flesh,we all gonna die of the flesh or be changed, 2nd death is of your very soul.
 

Copperhead

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Far too many of you are believing that you have no need to be concerned over the mark of the beast/antichrist, because you think you'll be gone by then. But you don't know that at all.

I think it is much deeper than that. Whether one holds to a pre, mid, or post removal of the righteous, or no removal at all, still really doesn't need to be concerned about the mark or the antichrist. Just focus on the Lord. While I do hold to a pre-trib view, even if it is not true and we go thru the tribulation period. I am not worried. What will happen will happen, and there is nothing I can do to change it. And in terms of dying for not taking the mark or accepting the antichrist, well, I have learned one thing over my many decades on this planet.... dying is easy. It is living that is tough.

It is probably why I have never been frightened by comments from others in opposition, that pre-trib folks are not prepared for what is coming, as no one can be prepared for what is coming since there has never been anything in history that equates to it. Viewing what is coming in the human perception of what has been or what one sees in a movie on the subject is not a good measure to understand what is going to take place. Yeshua said that the upcoming period will be such that nothing like it has come before it and nothing like it will come after it. No one can truly comprehend and prepare for that so why spend an inordinate amount to time trying to figure it out?

I actually have come to believe those who spend so much time denigrating pre-trib adherents might be more frightened than they want to admit and are seeking comfort in numbers by having more people think like they do. It is human nature to have difficulty in the idea that the Lord actually would spare the redeemed from this period. Even more, it is against human nature that a supreme being would sacrifice Himself for the redemption of creatures that despise Him. So, I am not convinced that the majority of folks who attack the pre-trib are actually doing it out of concern and love for the brethren.
 
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brakelite

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I think it is much deeper than that. Whether one holds to a pre, mid, or post removal of the righteous, or no removal at all, still really doesn't need to be concerned about the mark or the antichrist. Just focus on the Lord. While I do hold to a pre-trib view, even if it is not true and we go thru the tribulation period. I am not worried. What will happen will happen, and there is nothing I can do to change it. And in terms of dying for not taking the mark or accepting the antichrist, well, I have learned one thing over my many decades on this planet.... dying is easy. It is living that is tough.
While I agree that there is no need for anyone to be concerned over receiving the mark, that is conditional on their having the seal of God...we are to have either one or the other. Knowing what they both are would be essential to not needing to be concerned...if you aren't sure who the beast is, and therefore cannot possibly understand what his mark is, then I think one should be very concerned. After all, there is more written to describe or identify the Antichrist than any other entity in scripture apart from God Himself...I think God wants us to know who, what, he is, how he works, and what his mark is, and how to avoid it.

It is probably why I have never been frightened by comments from others in opposition, that pre-trib folks are not prepared for what is coming, as no one can be prepared for what is coming since there has never been anything in history that equates to it. Viewing what is coming in the human perception of what has been or what one sees in a movie on the subject is not a good measure to understand what is going to take place. Yeshua said that the upcoming period will be such that nothing like it has come before it and nothing like it will come after it. No one can truly comprehend and prepare for that so why spend an inordinate amount to time trying to figure it out?
This I agree with. There is no preparation apart from being totally in sync with our Saviour and walking with Him in faith and trust. He is our only security. We can no more imagine what is to come upon us than we can imagine what heaven is like. However, a slight caveat to that. We can know from whom deception comes from, thus we can know how to protect ourselves from it. And according to Jesus, it was deception that was our greatest threat that we needed to be aware of.

I actually have come to believe those who spend so much time denigrating pre-trib adherents might be more frightened than they want to admit and are seeking comfort in numbers by having more people think like they do. It is human nature to have difficulty in the idea that the Lord actually would spare the redeemed from this period. Even more, it is against human nature that a supreme being would sacrifice Himself for the redemption of creatures that despise Him. So, I am not convinced that the majority of folks who attack the pre-trib are actually doing it out of concern and love for the brethren.
True. Many argue simply because their belief they feel needs to be defended. Insecurity? Maybe. Dunno about the motives why we feel we need to be so adamant about stuff we cannot possibly know for sure. Some things though God has revealed. Revelation needs to be shared.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Those left behind when 2Thess. is fulfilled are dead. All of them, spread from one end of the earth to the other...they will neither be gathered, buried, nor lamented. Those not dead will be with Christ, in those mansions/rooms prepared for them for such a day as this. Those mansions are where the Father dwells. Where Christ is. And at the end of the 1000 years we shall return to this earth where we will witness the destruction of sinners, Satan, the man-made pollutions of the previous 6000 years, and the creation of the new heavens and new earth.
There is no-one in heaven now, except maybe Enoch and Elijah, we all go together for the first time when we are awakened with the trumpet and the voice of the archangel. This takes place at the second coming, not 7 years before, not 3 1/2 years before, but when Christ Himself comes to take His beloved bride home to meet the Father.
Sure, there's going to be a pretty intense time prior to Christ's return. More than any other time in earths history. The wrath of the devil being directed at the remnant that have remained faithful to Bible truth will be focused, intense, vindictive, and all the powers of the world will be used and arrayed together to erase them from the surface of the earth. That will be a time of crisis, no doubt. But God has not promised to take us away from living through that, He has promised to protect us from it. Living through a time such as this, and preserving the faith once delivered to the saints, is our, or at least our children's, calling and destiny. Makes our responsibility to our children that more serious huh.
If we live long enough of course to experience it. Some will be taken in death before hand...preserved indeed from the trouble to come...but there will be I believe a generation that in patience, obedience to God's commandments, and faithful service in the midst of trial and persecution, will testify of God's justice, power, faithfulness, and grace, in ways that if absent because of a rapture, could never be accomplished.
Far too many of you are believing that you have no need to be concerned over the mark of the beast/antichrist, because you think you'll be gone by then. But you don't know that at all. You are only assuming that because of your personal reasoning of certain scriptures, and the lunatic teachings of certain clairvoyants and prognosticators whom you trust far to much and doubt far too little.
If all of they that were Saved in Christ Jesus are not in Heaven now, where are they Purgatory ?
I thought that Jesus went and brought Holy Moses and all the Prophets to Him.
 
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brakelite

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If all of they that were Saved in Christ Jesus are not in Heaven now, where are they Purgatory ?
I thought that Jesus went and brought Holy Moses and all the Prophets to Him.
Would King David be one of those who you think Jesus would have taken with Him? What does scripture say?
Acts 4:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

Why is it that David is not yet in heaven?
Despite being a man after God's own heart...

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Because...

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

...and he is still asleep, just as everyone else is who died throughout history...because he hasn't been awakened yet, for that comes at the resurrection at the time of the second coming.
 
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Copperhead

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and he is still asleep, just as everyone else is who died throughout history...because he hasn't been awakened yet, for that comes at the resurrection at the time of the second coming.

So how do we see this then.....

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV) So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

And when we look at these two passages side by side........

Matthew 27:52-53 (NKJV) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV) And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
 
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brakelite

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So how do we see this then.....

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV) So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

And when we look at these two passages side by side........

Matthew 27:52-53 (NKJV) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV) And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
So do those passages refute other Bible texts which teach the opposite of what you are believing these to teach? Or is there perhaps a harmony in scripture that shows us that all texts on any given subject reveal truth? Your quote above for example, that speaks of saints sleeping until they were raised. Does that not in itself support the concept of the resurrection being the only means by which we may exit the grave and be awakened to life?
And I agree with Paul. I also would rather be absent from this body and present with the Lord. My desires in that matter however doesn't mean we can devise a doctrine on that claiming everyone who has died is therefore automatically in heaven. Or hell. All scripture must harmonise, so we cannot entertain ideas that we must reject certain scriptures because we cannot agree with what they are saying, on the basis that they disagree with our opinion. I am quite willing to accept all scripture, but not to give it a certain meaning if in doing so it cannot agree with other scriptures that speak of the same subject.
Thus David still sleeps. Just as Jesus described Lazarus as sleeping. And Jairus' daughter. And numerous others. And like those saints you spoke of, will be raised together with millions of others at the second coming of Christ. For we shall not all sleep, but some of us will be changed, (thus we will not all die, because those of us who will still be alive will be translated), in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...
In the time of Jesus ministry, people understood this. In John 11:23,24 Jesus said in relation to Lazarus, "Your brother will rise again". Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day".
Jesus did not disagree with Martha's belief, but offered her immediate hope with an immediate resurrection. He didn't bring Lazarus back down from heaven. He brought him froth from the grave, just as he will with you and me if we die prior to His second coming.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Would King David be one of those who you think Jesus would have taken with Him? What does scripture say?
Acts 4:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

Why is it that David is not yet in heaven?
Despite being a man after God's own heart...

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Because...

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

...and he is still asleep, just as everyone else is who died throughout history...because he hasn't been awakened yet, for that comes at the resurrection at the time of the second coming.
David Spirit is still with us and the Sepulchre, that's why.

Nothing to do with anyone else at all.
 

Copperhead

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I think that what is being missed here is that man is a triune being also.... body, soul, and spirit. A reflection of the creator. Also it helps to look at things from a more technical point of view. One can have the greatest computer on the planet, yet it will do nothing without software. And the software can cost millions of dollars and be billions of bit of information and data, but it weighs nothing, can be transferred thru the air, is not subject to mass, acceleration, or gravity, etc. The spirit of someone is like that software. It is who the person really is. It resides in the body for a time, but the body is not who the person is. The spirit weighs nothing and has no mass so that it is essentially eternal as it is not subject to the constraints of time. Time is a relative physical property and only an object subject to mass, gravity, and acceleration is subject to time.

And there is also this little nugget that John gave us.....

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Now this pretty well puts to rest this "soul sleep" sort of thing. These folks have been slain. They have not been resurrected. They are conscious, alert, and aware. The tribulation period is not over. There has not been the general resurrection of all people, only the redeemed before this period started. So if everyone when they die remains in some sort of soul sleep thing and not in heaven, then how is it these slain brothers and sisters are clearly seen in heaven and even given robes?
 
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brakelite

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Now this pretty well puts to rest this "soul sleep" sort of thing. These folks have been slain.
Actually, no. You are using that one text to debunk and oppose the numerous other texts throughout scripture that teach otherwise than what you are proposing. Literal souls now live under and altar in heaven, crying to God for vengeance? Really? That is the happy state heaven presents to those who die for their faith? Thanks, but no thanks.
I think that what is being missed here is that man is a triune being also.... body, soul, and spirit.
How many times it has been pointed out in various forum discussions I have no idea, but allow me to do so again...Genesis concisely informs us how we were created, or at least Adam anyway, giving the pattern for the rest of us...and God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life, and so man became a living soul.
Dust + breath =soul. Not dust+soul+spirit=man.
 
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brakelite

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God said to Adam and Eve...if you disobey, you will die.
Satan said...you shall not die.
Who was right? Who does the Christian church today believe?
 

Copperhead

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Actually, no. You are using that one text to debunk and oppose the numerous other texts throughout scripture that teach otherwise than what you are proposing.

Well it must be a unique case then. So it must be explained elsewhere in scripture how it is these folks are under the alter in Heaven without their bodies. True enough, one passage does not make a doctrine, but in the context of all scripture it is not out of line. A similar argument can be made that avoiding a passage because it doesn't fit one's doctrine can be just as bad.

Remember, the comment I originally refuted is when you said everyone from all time is in the same boat. That doesn't seem to be the case. The only clear example that is defendable is in regards to those who are not considered the redeemed. Then your assertion would be valid.
 
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brakelite

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Well it must be a unique case then. So it must be explained elsewhere in scripture how it is these folks are under the alter in Heaven without their bodies. True enough, one passage does not make a doctrine, but in the context of all scripture it is not out of line. A similar argument can be made that avoiding a passage because it doesn't fit one's doctrine can be just as bad.

Remember, the comment I originally refuted is when you said everyone from all time is in the same boat. That doesn't seem to be the case. The only clear example that is defendable is in regards to those who are not considered the redeemed. Then your assertion would be valid.
Everyone is on the same boat but for two exceptions. Enoch and Elijah. Everyone else, including Moses, those saints at the time of Christs resurrection, even Jesus Himself, need to be resurrected... It is the Christian hope. None go to heaven in any other way except those who may be still alive when Jesus comes.
 

Copperhead

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Everyone else, including Moses,

Then how was it the Moses appeared along side Yeshua and Elijah at the transfiguration?

Matthew 17:1-3 (NKJV) Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Copperhead, you astound me all of the time. I like to listen to you. I might be your biggest fan...:)
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Everyone is on the same boat but for two exceptions. Enoch and Elijah. Everyone else, including Moses, those saints at the time of Christs resurrection, even Jesus Himself, need to be resurrected... It is the Christian hope. None go to heaven in any other way except those who may be still alive when Jesus comes.
Maybe you will find it in Nathaniel where Jesus says to him what Nathaniel will see ? boy is that a spin out to behold what he was going to see.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Actually, he told Nathaniel, not what he would see, but where he had been earlier (if I'm remembering correctly).
 

n2thelight

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Copperhead said:
I think it is much deeper than that. Whether one holds to a pre, mid, or post removal of the righteous, or no removal at all, still really doesn't need to be concerned about the mark or the antichrist. Just focus on the Lord. While I do hold to a pre-trib view, even if it is not true and we go thru the tribulation period. I am not worried. What will happen will happen, and there is nothing I can do to change it. And in terms of dying for not taking the mark or accepting the antichrist, well, I have learned one thing over my many decades on this planet.... dying is easy. It is living that is tough.

No! One must be concerned as taking the mark could mean the death of your very soul
 

Copperhead

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No! One must be concerned as taking the mark could mean the death of your very soul

But I am not sure that anyone who is redeemed can take the mark. First off, it is not going to be some sort of subtle thing going on. It will be worship the beast and take the mark or die. It will be a defined choice and folks will know exactly what they are doing. And throughout the NT, it is stated those who are redeemed are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And when all this goes down, it is not like it will just creep up on folks, it will separate those playing Christian and those who are redeemed. And there is no way that anyone on this planet can be prepared for what it coming. Yeshua told us that nothing like it comes before it and nothing like it will come after it. It is a one of a kind nightmare that no one can truly prepare for. If anyone thinks what has gone on in history at any point was hell, this period coming will make all history before it just look like a hallway to hell. Deception will rule supreme. The only safety anyone will have is to focus totally on Yeshua, taking up the full armor as Paul told us.

Nowhere in scripture are we admonished to focus on who the antichrist will be and all the other stuff that people get caught up in. It is fun to discuss and we can toss various scenarios around that we glean from scripture, but the primary focus is always Yeshua.

Now, I believe that the redeemed are taken out early before this starts. I could be wrong just like anyone else on any position. And if I am, the only protection will be the Holy Spirit and focusing on Yeshua. Just like Peter, by taking his eyes off Yeshua began to sink in the water, if we take our eyes off Yeshua, we will sink in the quagmire that is coming. Our eschatology and all the other stuff will mean very little. The little squabbles we have about theology will all fade away. Probably the greatest example for us in this day is our N. Korean brothers and sisters. In the face of horrendous trials too difficult for many of us to imagine, they hold on.

Whether I am right and the redeemed in Yeshua are out of here before it all begins, or we all go thru part of all of it, I am grateful to the Lord to be living in the time I am so that I could see a multitude of prophecy come true right before my eyes.... almost daily as it is coming so fast. I watch the world crumbling around me, falling into the depths of sin and depravity, and from a human standpoint that is depressing. But it was all predicted to take place and it all heralds Yeshua's coming. Stuff the prophets who wrote it down longed to see. The realization that the set time has come for Yeshua to claim what it rightfully His. And as John, said so well.....

Revelation 22:20 (NKJV) He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!