Do you have to submit to elders (anyone) in church today?

[MatthewG]

Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide.

• #2 <- The high priest
• #3 <- All Sin Paid (past, present, future)
• #4 <- Law is good - brings us to christ
• #5 <- Let go and Let God Be - allow others to be - The greatest gift
• #6 <- How Christ makes one right with God
• #7 <- The Choice
• #8 for your consideration -> Why are faithless people claimed to be outside of the gates of the city in heaven?
• #9 for your consideration -> God tested Abraham - Abram of UR - To sacrifice his Son
• #10 for your consideration -> Romans Road (Readings)
• #11 for your consideration -> Universalism is a dangerous doctrine
• #12 for your consideration -> Different Bible Studies, and Topics (videos)
• #13 For your consideration. -> The End of Material Religion
• # 14 For your consideration. -> A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY
• #15 for your consideration -> Two things even God cannot Fix
• #16 for your consideration -> Three Days in Hell

Do the verses of Paul written to Timothy,

Who was going around in Ephesus have anything to do with us today?

I personally do not believe - anyone has to submit themselves to anyone but God, and the Lord Jesus today, but what do you think? I believe you can respect anyone that comes around you - however, does that give them any right to control you? Also if you fail the test of 1 Timothy - isn't that just more proof that perhaps there are spiritual principles, founded however you do not have to submit yourself under them as "Spiritual Authority"?

The reason that the apostles governed a church was to produce a bride which Jesus would come back to get - he did that as promised - though many today believe that they are preparing a church for him to come back to.

What ever you may believe - may God of comfort be with you.

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

2To Timothy, my true child in the faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Correcting False Teachers
(Titus 1:10–16)

3As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines 4or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work, which is by faith.a

5The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith. 6Some have strayed from these ways and turned aside to empty talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert.

Reproof and Respect

1Do not rebuke an older man, but appeal to him as to a father.

Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

Honoring True Widows
(Ruth 1:1–5)

3Honor the widows who are truly widows. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to show godliness to their own family and repay their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God.

5The widow who is truly in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day in her petitions and prayers. 6But she who lives for pleasure is dead even while she is still alive.

7Give these instructions to the believers, so that they will be above reproach. 8If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

9A widow should be enrolled if she is at least sixty years old, the wife of one man, 10and well known for good deeds such as bringing up children, entertaining strangers, washing the feet of the saints, imparting relief to the afflicted, and devoting herself to every good work.

11But refuse to enroll younger widows. For when their passions draw them away from Christ, they will want to marry, 12and thus will incur judgment because they are setting aside their first faith. 13At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, discussing things they should not mention.

14So I advise the younger widows to marry, have children, and manage their households, denying the adversary occasion for slander. 15For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

16If any believing woman has dependent widows, she must assist them and not allow the church to be burdened, so that it can help the widows who are truly in need.

Honoring Elders

17Elders who lead effectively are worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”a and, “The worker is worthy of his wages.”b

19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder, except on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 20But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin.

A Charge to Timothy

21I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to maintain these principles without bias, and to do nothing out of partiality.

22Do not be too quick in the laying on of hands and thereby share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

23Stop drinking only water and use a little wine instead, because of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

24The sins of some men are obvious, going ahead of them to judgment; but the sins of others do not surface until later. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even the ones that are inconspicuous cannot remain hidden.​

 

[BarneyFife]

1Do not rebuke an older man, but appeal to him as to a father.

Good counsel

 

[MatthewG]

Another conudrum that comes down the pike of self-sacrifice is looking into this very same letter that Paul wrote to Timothy, who would be his elder in the faith.

He wrote to Timothy saying,

““Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come.”

This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it.

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.

Teach these things and insist that everyone learn them. Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young.

Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity.

Until I get there, focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭8‬-‭13‬ ‭NLT‬‬

1 Timothy 4:12 Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity. | New Living Translation (NLT) | Download The Bible App Now

Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity.

bible.com

Are there spiritual principles in these sayings that can be learned from?

 

[Windmillcharge]

If you join a local church you in joining agree to a level of oversight and church discipline.

A church member whose lifestyle is clearly not that of a Christine brings disrepute upon the church they are members of and the leadership of that church has the authority to, having meet with them and talked to them, to forbid them to attend church, remove them from any position u till there lifestyle has changed.

 

[dev553344]

If you join a local church you in joining agree to a level of oversight and church discipline.

A church member whose lifestyle is clearly not that of a Christine brings disrepute upon the church they are members of and the leadership of that church has the authority to, having meet with them and talked to them, to forbid them to attend church, remove them from any position u till there lifestyle has changed.

Yes that is correct. Which is why churches have followings of billions of people. There are people who follow unscrupulous leaders that are brought out for their sins into the light eventually. But those are startup churches and not well established with age usually. Fanatic organizations I think.

 

[MatthewG]

What about if they are abusive? Or manipulative? And Its hard to discern?

 

[dev553344]

What about if they are abusive? Or manipulative? And Its hard to discern?

Yes they can be. But we are free to leave and find another church or religion. I found the Mormon religion to be judgmental and obnoxious to my mental disability personally and to a normal Christian lifestyle, where drinking a little alcohol is accepted with coffee also being OK. So I left, haven't gone back in over 10 years. They also don't let people who drink alcohol, use tobacco or drink coffee participate in their temples. Again most of that is normal Christian lifestyle. Drinking is discouraged, and if you drink you feel like their judging you, or smoking or drinking coffee. None of those things are accepted. But in all honesty they do accept sinners into their churches. I don't follow those Mormon words of wisdom anymore as I see them as not wise. Drinking a little can really make a relaxed people that are more tolerant and pleasing to be around. Less up-tight and aggressive. And drinking coffee, although also addictive has benefits, like liver protection, which is something I need because my other illness, the cystic fibrosis is known to damage livers.

We must remember that sinners are what Jesus preached to. They should be included as the gold in the church to allow the church to continue to preach the message in hopes that one day they will live the message and repent.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus also taught his disciples, @dev553344, and others.

Luke 21:37-38​

​

37 Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38 and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Yes that is correct. Which is why churches have followings of billions of people. There are people who follow unscrupulous leaders that are brought out for their sins into the light eventually. But those are startup churches and not well established with age usually. Fanatic organizations I think.

I always remember the story of Duncan Campbell, a man used by God in the 1950s Lewis revivals.
How as a new Christian he faith7 attended every Sunday his local church, even though the minister was not a Christian. That faithfulness was rewarded when his witness was used to save that minister.

What is our witness to others attending church like?
Are we a source of encouragement, a challenge or rebuke to those who are wandering in there faith?

 

[MatthewG]

I don't understand what the point is about "Revivals", isn't that a lot emotionalism involved?

Don't get me wrong, I'll love a person regardless of what they may will do with their life.

This guy says a lot about it; but nothing really compares to just teaching the bible.

I still don't see anyone in authority with-in a church. People can give their considerations and everything is all great, but I think a lot of the times it's just emotionalism, and I am not saying these people are bad, it just seems people are duped in the sense of not being given enough food for though via teaching of the scriptures.

I seen a lot more songs and singing, and light shows, and people putting hands on others, and what not but no real deep rooted teachings via the bible.

 

[MatthewG]

A preacher we once had said, "The only real authority I have is deciding what goes on in the sanctuary between 11:00 and 12:00 Sunday morning".

May that is probably why the notion of indifference comes from. It's okay to go to church, and that is all fine, but the problem comes when one is not being properly fed, that is a big problem in my estimation it could be they are also fed they wrong things, that teach people to hate rather than to love.

For the past 2-3 years, that's how I learned was; someone taking time, to go verse by verse, and share what they learned via commentaries, also voice their own opinion, but also encouraged people to seek out for themselves as well.

So... thank God - God isn't pleased by you just showing up to church. He is please with you by having faith in him. Some believe it's all about showing up to church, while it is helpful and good, it can also be dangerous and unhelpful. Gotta find a balance it seems, Lamabano.

 

[Lambano]

For the past 2-3 years, that's how I learned was; someone taking time, to go verse by verse, and share what they learned via commentaries, also voice their own opinion, but also encouraged people to seek out for themselves as well.

Similarly, I got more out of group Bible studies that occurred outside of the Worship service. And internet resources. Though occasionally, a well-exposited sermon was good in helping me grow.

 

[Wrangler]

What about if they are abusive? Or manipulative? And Its hard to discern?

Pray for discernment. There is risk to relationship but even more reward.

I don't understand what the point is about "Revivals", isn't that a lot emotionalism involved?

What's wrong with being passionately exuberant about how great our God is?

 

[MatthewG]

What's wrong with being passionately exuberant about how great our God is?

Hello Wrangler, that is not an answer exactly, that is a question. A question that I don't find a need to answer, cause it relates nothing to the prior question.

From my perspective, there are people who are over ... idk say 2,000 people that show up to their church or whatever, maybe even say 250, or 200.

Lying to them, and misguiding them and asking them to pay tithes... with beautifully constructed material buildings, with antidotal stories, with light shows, music that can tend to go on for way to long, and then having performance acts of "healings" all while waiting for that money in that basket.

Abusing people's "emotions" is wrong.

Back to the top -> #1

 

[MatthewG]

Similarly, I got more out of group Bible studies that occurred outside of the Worship service. And internet resources. Though occasionally, a well-exposited sermon was good in helping me grow.

Thank you for sharing that Lambano. Maybe Ill start visiting a little more, Idk. Thinking about going to a pentacostal church this sunday 2pm, maybe go see that cute woman, that works in HR at my old work place. :] I probably wont stay very long though. I really find the music distasteful and it goes on to long and the preacher is always shouting Jesus Jesus Jesus, love them but sometimes that is just to much to handle ya know? It could go differently for all I know.

God is good; and they have the freedom to do what they want to. No hatred sometimes just don't really like all that.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thank you for sharing that Lambano. Maybe Ill start visiting a little more, Idk. Thinking about going to a pentacostal church this sunday 2pm, maybe go see that cute woman, that works in HR at my old work place. :] I probably wont stay very long though. I really find the music distasteful and it goes on to long and the preacher is always shouting Jesus Jesus Jesus, love them but sometimes that is just to much to handle ya know? It could go differently for all I know.

God is good; and they have the freedom to do what they want to. No hatred sometimes just don't really like all that.

As with all organisations, there are some good aspects associated with that organisation just as there are some bad parts as well.

Just as there are some good theological understandings that we can grab hold of, there are other theological understandings that we should avoid at all costs.

It really comes down to why you go to church and be involved in the life that surrounds that church.

God's grace cannot be found unless those in Christ carry God's Grace with them into the Church that they attend. It is also paramount that they hold tightly onto God's Grace at all times as well so that they do not lose it.

Shalom

 

[MatthewG]

As with all organisations, there are some good aspects associated with that organisation just as there are some bad parts as well.

Just as there are some good theological understandings that we can grab hold of, there are other theological understandings that we should avoid at all costs.

It really comes down to why you go to church and be involved in the life that surrounds that church.

God's grace cannot be found unless those in Christ carry God's Grace with them into the Church that they attend. It is also paramount that they hold tightly onto God's Grace at all times as well so that they do not lose it.

Shalom

Thank you for sharing some of your thoughts, Jay.

 

[Lambano]

In retrospect, what happens between 11:00 and 12:00 Sunday morning may be one of the least important things a church does.

Thinking with sadness of the many I've known who just could not connect with brothers and sisters in the churches they attended and thus could not extend the context of church outside of the Sunday morning worship service.