The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Dcopymope]

I don't think you are getting my point. When we give the gospel to the unsaved, we use the Law to show them they are sinners before God. We are going at their conscience. Once they acknowledge they are sinners and are prepared to humble themselves, then we show the the grace and love of God through Christ.

If I am going to apply the Law to a professing Christian, then it will be to a "nominal" Christian where I am not sure of their full commitment to Christ. But if the person is genuinely converted, they will be quick to acknowledge that though they are guilty according to the Law, that Jesus has taken the penalty of it on Himself and they are trusting Him that their case will be dismissed at the Judgment.

Those who abuse me for applying the Ten Commandments, are those who know in their conscience that they have something they are trying to hide from God and they don't want to admit it, so they abuse and discredit me to ease their own conscience.

So, in other words, its not possible to follow the law 100%. So why is Luke saying Zacharias and Elisabeth followed the whole law and was blameless before God?

 

[Paul Christensen]

So, in other words, its not possible to follow the law 100%. So why is Luke saying Zacharias and Elisabeth followed the whole law and was blameless before God?

You just don't get it do you!!
I am not talking about believers, which Zach and Elizabeth definitely were. I am talking about this generation unsaved sinners who have no idea of Judeo-Christian world view. They are as pagan as the ancient Greeks whom Paul preached to on Mars Hill. We have to show them they are not good people, and if there is a judgment, they will be found guilty, and if there is a hell they will go there. That is the first step of sharing the gospel to unsaved people.

Why, oh why do you hark back to believers and the Law when I am not talking about that at all???

It is as you see my posts and go one plus one equals five!

The application of the Law has to be to "nominal", liberal, easy-believers as well, because all they have is the Christian religion, but have come over the wall instead of through the narrow gate. This is why the gate is narrow and few there be who find it. Many will not admit that they have broken the Commandments and are hopeless sinners before God, deserving of judgment and hell.

If one is trying to share the gospel with this generation, if they don't apply the Ten Commandments to their conscience, then they might as well shut up and walk away, because they won't even get to first base with most unsaved believers.

Most don't believe there is a God. They don't believe that the Bible is God's Word. They think that churches and Christian are a joke and belong to some distant past and not relevant to their society or their own lives. If we try and tell them that Jesus loves them, they will just laugh in our face, because their impression of Jesus is some whimpy effeminate dude with long hippy type hair that came out of a salon. During the Jesus movement in the late 1960s, I actually met guys who looked more like Jesus than what the artworks depicted of Jesus Himself! Jesus is totally irrelevant to today's generation, and the sooner we admit it the better, and then we will find a better way to share the gospel with them in a way that makes sense to them.

So, the Law doesn't apply to the unsaved, because they don't believe in the Biblical Law anyway. Most have no idea of what is actually in the Bible, and wouldn't believe it anyway if they are told!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I gave a long complex response to a complex issue. Also, you keep bringing up the ten commandments as if its a standard that is completely unattainable, yet we see scriptures like this.



All the commandments and ordinances or just some? How do you explain this?

How do you explain this

For "ALL have sinned and fall short"

or cursed is the one who does not confirm and keep every word written in this law

Did This priest really keep all the commands and fulfill the law. Or was jesus telling us, that in Jerusalem. this priest was blameless because no one could bring a charge of sin against him?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Up until the 1960s the majority of people in our society had a Judeo-Christian world view, even though they never went to church themselves, therefore preaching and sharing the gospel from the Bible had much greater results than it does today.

In the late 1950s, when Billy Graham went to Australia and had a crusade, people all over the country listened to him on landlines in town halls and churches, as well as packing out the stadium where he actually preached. When he went back in the late 1960s, hardly any landlines were set up because there weren't enough people interested in attending to hear his preaching, and the results gained in the previous crusade were not near matched in the later crusade.

But now, the majority of unsaved people in our society no longer has that same Judeo-Christian world view, and they don't believe the Bible. So what might have been successful in the 1950s, is no longer successful now, because the church, in general are still in the 1950s as far as their preaching of the gospel is concerned. They are trying to preach a Judeo-Christian world view to a new generation, brought up on evolution in their schools and universities, who don't have any perception of it.

So those who are trying to preach the Judeo-Christian God are failing because modern people don't believe that there is a God. So that form of gospel preaching is foolishness to them, in the same way, as Paul said, preaching the cross to the Greeks is foolishness to them, and the Greeks in Athens saw him as a "babbler", except for a few who did believe the gospel.

So, what is the answer? It doesn't matter whether modern people have the appropriate world view or not; they still have their God-given conscience, and when the gospel is shared in a way that addresses their conscience, it has a greater chance of making sense to them and causing them to think very serious about where they are going to spend eternity when they die.

the church has forgot to be like paul. To be all things to all people. Paul adjusted his teaching depending on where he went to make his teaching relevent in that area. We see the churches or people who do this, are having great success. The older traditional churches. are failing miserably. And closing their doors. Its sad to see all these old buildings locked up and crumbling, Even the church I was saved in and grew up in is no longer a traditional church, it folded about 8 years ago. and is now a spanish church of some sort.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

, Ok, but you still didn't answer my question about Luke 1:5-6. Is it possible for one to keep the law or not? If not, then why is Luke stating otherwise?

if it were possible to keep the law. That person would have no need for Grace, he would have attained righteousness through his own power and mt Gods standard

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When sin is hiding in someone's heart, or when sin is hiding within someone, it will eventually be revealed , but not necessarily in time to save them - perhaps not until judgment day.

then it would be too late

 

[FollowHim]

Up until the 1960s the majority of people in our society had a Judeo-Christian world view, even though they never went to church themselves, therefore preaching and sharing the gospel from the Bible had much greater results than it does today.

In the late 1950s, when Billy Graham went to Australia and had a crusade, people all over the country listened to him on landlines in town halls and churches, as well as packing out the stadium where he actually preached. When he went back in the late 1960s, hardly any landlines were set up because there weren't enough people interested in attending to hear his preaching, and the results gained in the previous crusade were not near matched in the later crusade.

But now, the majority of unsaved people in our society no longer has that same Judeo-Christian world view, and they don't believe the Bible. So what might have been successful in the 1950s, is no longer successful now, because the church, in general are still in the 1950s as far as their preaching of the gospel is concerned. They are trying to preach a Judeo-Christian world view to a new generation, brought up on evolution in their schools and universities, who don't have any perception of it.

So those who are trying to preach the Judeo-Christian God are failing because modern people don't believe that there is a God. So that form of gospel preaching is foolishness to them, in the same way, as Paul said, preaching the cross to the Greeks is foolishness to them, and the Greeks in Athens saw him as a "babbler", except for a few who did believe the gospel.

So, what is the answer? It doesn't matter whether modern people have the appropriate world view or not; they still have their God-given conscience, and when the gospel is shared in a way that addresses their conscience, it has a greater chance of making sense to them and causing them to think very serious about where they are going to spend eternity when they die.

"So, what is the answer?" - Evangelical faith was founded on a cultural foundation, whether the people knew Jesus or not.
As Gods people we are called to follow Him, and witness to His work in our hearts. This is our way and our walk.

We can but witness to those around us. So there is not an answer as such, because this about choice and direction.
Part of the argument is why does the Lord command the way He does?

One uncle who has now passed away could not cope with the idea God commanded communities to be executed.
What he was unaware of was child sacrifice, sexual behaviours that knew no bounds, and any ethical framework. One community could not imprison another group or exercise justice, it was total war of one community wiping out or enslaving another. We live in a world that is surprisingly fair and moral, balanced and caring. We do not cart people off to the colonies if they steal bread because they are starving, or enslave a people because they lost a dispute with us. We now live in a kind of utopia, which almost makes the christian framework redundant.

With the latest virus, how many call out to God for mercy or grace to spare lives? It is technology and drugs, understanding viruses and the spread one to one, getting billions of people to behave in a cause and effect way. This is a first in human history, and puts these things into perspective.

The cause of the pandemic is illegal eating of wild animals, acting as a vehical for existing viruses.
Whether you live or die, is based on many different factors, which science is now trying to understand. It begs the question, where is God in this?
In love and service, in caring and empathy, in knowing responsibility and care for the wider community, sinner or saint.

 

[Joseph77]

I would be worried

Good, you should be worried. But if you continue seeking the truth positively yes, and do not give up seeking the truth,
it is God's Promise that you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free.
The sites online which fully disclose what James is saying so that anyone seeking the truth can understand it are available, btw.
I have not the resources at hand , time and information , as they did, to satisfactorily help someone who is not seeking the truth and says so.

Realize most people THINK they found the truth (even though it contradicts much in God's Word),
and they stop seeking the truth, so they do not then find the truth,

unless thru God's Mercy and Plan He accomplishes it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good, you should be worried. But if you continue seeking the truth positively yes, and do not give up seeking the truth,
it is God's Promise that you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free.
The sites online which fully disclose what James is saying so that anyone seeking the truth can understand it are available, btw.
I have not the resources at hand , time and information , as they did, to satisfactorily help someone who is not seeking the truth and says so.

Realize most people THINK they found the truth (even though it contradicts much in God's Word),
and they stop seeking the truth, so they do not then find the truth,

unless thru God's Mercy and Plan He accomplishes it.

you did not read a thing I posted did you. You just focused on those three words?

I am not worried. I have nothing to fear. Number one I do not do that, number 2 my pastor does not do that.

but if you actually read what I posted. you may understand that

 

[Joseph77]

I did not want to 'worry' you more, with the other errors revealed.
I read everything.

you did not read a thing I posted did you. You just focused on those three words?
I am not worried. I have nothing to fear. Number one I do not do that, number 2 my pastor does not do that.
but if you actually read what I posted. you may understand that

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did not want to 'worry' you more, with the other errors revealed.
I read everything.

you worry me?

lol.. Thanks, But you do not have to worry about that at all

and by the way, I said IF MY PASTOR DID THIS I WOULD BE WORRIED

You said, Good I am worried

This proves you did not read what I said.

Maybe it is just better if we just go our seperate ways.

 

[Joseph77]

you worry me?
lol.. Thanks, But you do not have to worry about that at all
and by the way, I said IF MY PASTOR DID THIS I WOULD BE WORRIED
You said, Good I am worried
This proves you did not read what I said.
Maybe it is just better if we just go our seperate ways.

For me it is with sorrow and grief at what someone taught you, and you fell for it (to be disclosed later, if you do not disappear).

Not better for you though, although God's Way is mysterious (hidden for now) , and it might work out good for you, yes.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"So, what is the answer?" - Evangelical faith was founded on a cultural foundation, whether the people knew Jesus or not.
As Gods people we are called to follow Him, and witness to His work in our hearts. This is our way and our walk.

We can but witness to those around us. So there is not an answer as such, because this about choice and direction.
Part of the argument is why does the Lord command the way He does?

One uncle who has now passed away could not cope with the idea God commanded communities to be executed.
What he was unaware of was child sacrifice, sexual behaviours that knew no bounds, and any ethical framework. One community could not imprison another group or exercise justice, it was total war of one community wiping out or enslaving another. We live in a world that is surprisingly fair and moral, balanced and caring. We do not cart people off to the colonies if they steal bread because they are starving, or enslave a people because they lost a dispute with us. We now live in a kind of utopia, which almost makes the christian framework redundant.

With the latest virus, how many call out to God for mercy or grace to spare lives? It is technology and drugs, understanding viruses and the spread one to one, getting billions of people to behave in a cause and effect way. This is a first in human history, and puts these things into perspective.

The cause of the pandemic is illegal eating of wild animals, acting as a vehical for existing viruses.
Whether you live or die, is based on many different factors, which science is now trying to understand. It begs the question, where is God in this?
In love and service, in caring and empathy, in knowing responsibility and care for the wider community, sinner or saint.

Read how Paul preached to the Greeks on Mars Hill. Then read how Peter preached to the Jerusalem crowd on the day of Pentecost. What were the differences?

If our society has gone from having a Judean-Christian world view based on the Bible as it was up until the 1950s, to a neo-pagan evolutionist "Greek" world view which denies the existence of God and the authority of the Bible, then wouldn't you think that quoting the Bible and talking to the unsaved from a Judeo-Christian world view would get a rejection every time?

But even the worst pagan cares for others with love and empathy, so what's the difference? All they will see when we do the same as that we are following a good man who may have lived 2000 years ago (if He existed at all in their belief) b doing the same. So, they might join your church, but it might just be for the social service and the free meals that your church may supply to them. The Methodist church has such a social gospel, but many are so liberal they don't believe the Bible, the existence of God or Jesus, and their gospel is to become a better human being.

But everyone has a God-given conscience, and our message is to be such that it "pricks" their conscience and leads them to know that they are not as good as they think they are. Then we can explore what might happen to them when they die, and if there is a judgment and hell, they might end up there. If we come at it in the right way, we can get them to at least listen and see that we are making sense. That's all we are required to do - tell them the gospel, then when they come up for judgment, they will know that they have been warned.

 

[RogerDC]

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" So to give a brother or sister who are in need these things needed for the body certainly is an example of "works." Certain people like to play games with the word "works" then proceed to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. The apostle Paul leaves no room for salvation by works of any kind. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

The verses by Paul you cite here merely say we are not saved by works ALONE - they do NOT say works are irrelevant to salvation. So while Paul clearly doesn’t preach salvation by works ALONE, he does NOT preach that works are irrelevant to salvation.
On the contrary, Paul clearly preaches the same formula for salvation that James preaches - faith AND works. Here are some examples:

Paul sternly warns believers in Gal 5 that their sins can mean they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Sinning is “works”, just as obeying the commandments (ie, being holy and not sinning) is “works".

In Heb 12:14, Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord”. Holiness is keeping the commandments, which is “works” … without which, Paul says, “no one will see the Lord”.

In Romans 1:17, Paul says, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.” Paul is saying those who have faith and are “righteous” will be saved - righteousness is more or less the same as holiness, which is keeping the commandments, which is “works”.

In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul says, ”Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robber will inherit the kingdom of God.” This is Paul again preaching that sin can land believers in Hell. In other words, practising righteous/holiness/not sinning/keeping God’s commandments are necessary for salvation.

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.“

In 2Cor 5:10, Paul warns believers that they will be judged according to their works: “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.”

In Romans 2:4, Paul says, “Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” Repentance involves saying no to sin, and instead, obeying God commandments - which is “works”.

Eph 5:5-11, Paul warns believers: “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one that is covetous (that is, an idolater) has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” This is Paul - yet again - preaching that sin (aka “works”) can destroy any hope of salvation.

Paul devotes the whole chapter of Romans 6 to explaining to believers that they must no longer practise sin, but righteousness, which is good works.

 

[RogerDC]

Amen! If someone merely says/claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works (to substantiate their claim) then they have a bare profession of faith and not genuine faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Salvation is not about God saving those who merely believe in Him - it is about saving those who love Him. God judges, tests and measures our love for Him by our willingness to be obey Him - this is why good “works” are essential for salvation, since good “works” are simply obeying God’s commandments (conversely, there are evil “works”, which is not obeying God’s commandments, which is sin, and leads to death). This is what Paul means my “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6).

God has judged our love for Him by our works from the very beginning - God tested the love of Adam and Eve by their willingness to obey His commandment to not eat from a certain tree. God tested Abraham’s love but his willingness to obey God commandment to sacrifice Isaac. God tested the love of the Chosen People but their willingness to obey the law of Moses.
Nothing has changed - Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). When James says “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26), he is really saying “faith without demonstrating your love for God is dead”.

So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Jame teaches that "faith without works is dead" - in other words, works are just as essential to salvation as faith. We are saved by "faith working through love" - ie, faith and works.

 

[RogerDC]

Believers will be judged according to their works for the purpose of rewards and loss of rewards (not salvation or loss of salvation) at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

It seems to me that Paul contradicts you. He tells believers in Gal 5, Heb 12:14, 1Cor 6:9-11, Eph 5:5-11 that their sins can lead them to Hell. Therefore believers will be judged according to their sins and may end up in Hell because of them.

In 2Cor 5:10, Paul says, “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” Obviously, “we” includes all believers and to “receive good or evil” means going to Heaven or to Hell.

In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus indicates that He will condemn certain believers on Judgement Day, telling them, ‘I never knew you”.

 

[RogerDC]

"Nominal" Christians teach salvation by works. You said that you never heard of any Christian teaching that we are "saved by works," yet you previously used James 2:24 to teach that we are saved by works, when you said - "Man is saved by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

I don’t teach “salvation by works” - I teach salvation by faith and works. I quoted James 2:24 because it says the same thing - we are saved by faith and works.

Yet James said that man is "justified" by works (not saved by works) and not by faith alone and in context, once again, James is not using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous, but is shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence/proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

When James 2:24 says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he makes no distinction between being justified by works and being justified by faith. He is implying works are just as important to salvation as faith is - which is obvious when he says “faith without works is dead” (2:26). Faith alone is as “dead” as works alone.

James is discussing the evidence/proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

I have no idea what you mean by ‘not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God”. Salvation is a process, which begins with accepting the gift of faith (Eph 2:8). We are initially justified by faith (Romans 3:28), after which we must abide in Christ by “keeping His commandments” (1John 2:3-4) in order to remain justified (James 2:24). Without “keeping His commandments” (aka “works”), faith alone is dead (James 2:26) and doesn’t save.

 

[RogerDC]

Ye have faith to believe, what else is there to do, is that pat on the back all you seek or is it you wish to glorify Christ and God. Self is what religion is all about, you and proving to God what a good child you are.

Sounds like you’re trying to change the subject … rather than admit that your argument is illogical and therefore fails.
It seems to me that the basis of your faulty argument lies in your failure to understand the difference between our redemption (the Cross) and our salvation (abiding in Christ through faith and works). The former is unconditional and applies to all mankind; the latter is conditional and doesn’t apply to all mankind, because not all mankind will choose to follow Christ.

But you will do anything to avoid conceding defeat to a Catholic poster, that much is obvious.

 

[mjrhealth]

Sounds like you’re trying to change the subject … rather than admit that your argument is illogical and therefore fails. You will do anything to avoid conceding defeat to a Catholic poster, that much is obvious.

How does one concede defeat to a lie except by believing it. And as I sadi before, we cant agree with you cause we would have to agree with the devil he is the father of lies.

 

[RogerDC]

Romans says what it says.

I can’t find anything in Romans that says works are irrelevant to salvation - although I can see that Romans say we are not saved by works alone.

I do not believe there is such a thing as faith apart from works.

In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus condemns believers because of their sins. In others words, Jesus condemned them due to their works, apart from their faith.

Paul warns believers in Gal 5 that their sins (aka “works”) can result in them not inheriting “the kingdom of God”.

1Peter 1:14-17 warns believers to conduct themselves “with fear”, because God will judge them according to their “deeds” - ie, apart from their faith.

1John 2:3-4 says a believer who doesn’t “keep His commandments” is a “liar, and the truth is not in him”. Keeping “His commandments” is “works”.

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). Holiness = righteousness = keeping “His commandments” = works.