The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

Man is not to be trusted

The Catholic Church is not a man-made organization, but rather the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and ‘the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15). The Catholic Church is both divine and human - the divine part is perfect; the human part is sinful and therefore imperfect, especially now, during (what may be) the Great Apostasy (2Thess 2:3).

look at all the child molesters who are catholic priests

So there are no sinners in your church? Did you know that the CC is not the only Church that contains child molesters?

the bible is final authority on all spiritual matters

That is a fallacious myth invented by fifteenth-century Protestants, who, having abandoned the Church, had nothing left to go by except the Bible (or more precisely, just those parts of the Bible that suited their heretical doctrines).

Nowhere does the Bible says it is the final authority (so please don’t bother quoting 2Tim 3:16 - it doesn’t support your argument). Eph 4:4-14 says it is the CHURCH, not the Scriptures, that is responsible “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all attain the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ; so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.”

 

[RogerDC]

Is God the Creator Sovereign? yes. Did you read His Book ? I don't know.
Does God the Almighty Explain what you ask clearly ? yes (in English, Hebew, Greek and Aramaic, etc )

I don’t blame you trying to back down from what you said in post #2945 - that God “hides salvation” from educated people - which has to go down as one of the most stupid, most embarrassing and most offensive remarks ever posted on a Christian website.

 

[RogerDC]

didnt say they didn't

Let me get this straight … You admit that the Catholic Church - which you call “harlot” and “antichrist” - was responsible for deciding which books would make up the New Testament?!!

Firstly, what sort of fool would trust a book produced by an organization he believes to be demonic?

Secondly, pray tell, O Wise One, why on earth did God allow a “harlot … antichrist” church to decide what books would make up the canon of His holy word? Is God insane? Were there no real Christians around who could have performed that vitally important task?

 

[mjrhealth]

Let me get this straight … You admit that the Catholic Church - which you call “harlot” and “antichrist” - was responsible for deciding which books would make up the New Testament?!!

Firstly, what sort of fool would trust a book produced by an organization he believes to be demonic?

Secondly, pray tell, O Wise One, why on earth did God allow a “harlot … antichrist” church to decide what books would make up the canon of His holy word? Is God insane? Were there no real Christians around who could have performed that vitally important task?

As I said before God can use that what was meant for evil for good even the bible that was corrupted by your church, but please keep trying to justify the lie

Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[mailmandan]

I don’t teach “salvation by works” - I teach salvation by faith and works. I quoted James 2:24 because it says the same thing - we are saved by faith and works.When James 2:24 says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he makes no distinction between being justified by works and being justified by faith. He is implying works are just as important to salvation as faith is - which is obvious when he says “faith without works is dead” (2:26). Faith alone is as “dead” as works alone.I have no idea what you mean by ‘not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God”. Salvation is a process, which begins with accepting the gift of faith (Eph 2:8). We are initially justified by faith (Romans 3:28), after which we must abide in Christ by “keeping His commandments” (1John 2:3-4) in order to remain justified (James 2:24). Without “keeping His commandments” (aka “works”), faith alone is dead (James 2:26) and doesn’t save.

Thank you for making it clear that you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, but of course, many of us already knew that.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can’t find anything in Romans that says works are irrelevant to salvation - although I can see that Romans say we are not saved by works alone.

romans 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Sorry, No Faith plus works anywhere to be found.. But if you wish to twist Gods word to continue to try to save yourself. feel free, Thats on you

In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus condemns believers because of their sins. In others words, Jesus condemned them due to their works, apart from their faith.

Paul warns believers in Gal 5 that their sins (aka “works”) can result in them not inheriting “the kingdom of God”.

1Peter 1:14-17 warns believers to conduct themselves “with fear”, because God will judge them according to their “deeds” - ie, apart from their faith.

1John 2:3-4 says a believer who doesn’t “keep His commandments” is a “liar, and the truth is not in him”. Keeping “His commandments” is “works”.

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). Holiness = righteousness = keeping “His commandments” = works.

So I tell you I do not believe there is a possibility of faith without works

and your response is to show me how true faith results in works.

I take it you were agreeing with me?

or most likely, You still fail to grasp because you are listening with tainted ears that tells you I do not believe this?

 

[Joseph77]

I don’t blame you trying to back down from what you said in post #2945 - that God “hides salvation” from educated people - which has to go down as one of the most stupid, most embarrassing and most offensive remarks ever posted on a Christian website.

I did not back down at all, for anything, and certainly not for your false teaching, false church, and false attitude.
The BIBLE SAYS, JESUS SAYS, that God hides salvation from the educated, that is a quote from the New Testament,
so you are now showing youself and those who go your way as not only the most stupid on earth, but also without salvation, as written in what you deny.

Matthew 11:25 ►
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

King James Bible
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Christian Standard Bible
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants.

Contemporary English Version
At that moment Jesus said: My Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I am grateful that you hid all this from wise and educated people and showed it to ordinary people.

 

[Dave M]

The Catholic Church is not a man-made organization, but rather the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and ‘the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15). The Catholic Church is both divine and human - the divine part is perfect; the human part is sinful and therefore imperfect, especially now, during (what may be) the Great Apostasy (2Thess 2:3).So there are no sinners in your church? Did you know that the CC is not the only Church that contains child molesters?That is a fallacious myth invented by fifteenth-century Protestants, who, having abandoned the Church, had nothing left to go by except the Bible (or more precisely, just those parts of the Bible that suited their heretical doctrines).

Nowhere does the Bible says it is the final authority (so please don’t bother quoting 2Tim 3:16 - it doesn’t support your argument). Eph 4:4-14 says it is the CHURCH, not the Scriptures, that is responsible “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all attain the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ; so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.”

Hi Friend hope your having a good day. I was a catholic most of my life practicing religion, still being a habitual sinner. NOt until I left and seeked Jesus Christ did I get born again, and freed from the slavery on sin that once had great hold on me. Confessing sins to a priest does no good at all if you keep committing the same sins, Jesus is the only one who can free yo from the sin grips.

I see you are a very smart man, and that you can articulate far better then. But I have a rhetorical question for you, have you been changed, have you been freed from the enslavement of sin?? Please know brother I am not judging anyone, but Jesus wants a personal one on one relationship with us, not priest in between us

Have a good day no need to respond but please please please ask yourself if you have been changed if you are a new person crazy in love with Jesus, or are you just the same person you have always been practicing religion?? if no change has taken place, then how can someone say they are born again

I am not looking to discuss this at all, simply want you to think about what I have said, in love.. A fear a discussion would lead to bickering and that would please God. SO I have read what you said, and respect your opinion but dont agree with it.

 

[Joseph77]

NOt until I left and seeked Jesus Christ did I get born again, and freed from the slavery on sin that once had great hold on me. Confessing sins to a priest does no good at all if you keep committing the same sins, Jesus is the only one who can free yo from the sin grips.

In line with Scripture, good .... anyone from any country, from any nation, from any group,
if they seek Jesus, and keep seeking Him, find Him, and He does not cast them out.

 

[Enoch111]

Secondly, pray tell, O Wise One, why on earth did God allow a “harlot … antichrist” church to decide what books would make up the canon of His holy word?

That is what the Catholic Church would have us believe. But the truth is quite different. Long before the RCC came into existence, the canonical books of the Bible were well established within the churches.

The OT was well established long before the first coming of Christ. The NT was well established before the end of the 2nd century.

 

[FollowHim]

That is what the Catholic Church would have us believe. But the truth is quite different. Long before the RCC came into existence, the canonical books of the Bible were well established within the churches.

The OT was well established long before the first coming of Christ. The NT was well established before the end of the 2nd century.

Any Catholic believer who cannot be honest about the split between the Jesuits and the Fransicans does not see the compromise within the church and it's desire for union above spirituality. In Judaism you have the Pharisees and Sadducees claiming the same heritage. This is man's religion, playing with belief and power not truth and justice.

 

[RogerDC]

That is what the Catholic Church would have us believe. But the truth is quite different. Long before the RCC came into existence, the canonical books of the Bible were well established within the churches.

The OT was well established long before the first coming of Christ. The NT was well established before the end of the 2nd century.

The canon of the NT wasn't settled until the fourth century. The Catholic Church is the Church that existed from the very beginning, as described in the book of Acts. The name "Catholic Church" is recorded in official use as early as 106 AD.
If it wasn't the Catholic Church that decided the canon of the NT, which Church was? Name it ... or them. Give me some historical facts, instead of your vacuous fairy tales.

It was the also the Catholic Church that decided the canon of the OT - the Jews were divided on what the Sacred Writing were, so there were different versions getting around.

 

[RogerDC]

Thank you for making it clear that you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, but of course, many of us already knew that.

In that case, stop lying - you know I believe in "salvation by faith and works" but you misleadingly and falsely call it "salvation by works". They are not the same thing. Are you really that low and dishonest?

 

[RogerDC]

As I said before God can use that what was meant for evil for good even the bible that was corrupted by your church, but please keep trying to justify the lie

I feel sorry for you - every time you open your Bible you are reminded that an antichrist-harlot church was responsible for bringing it into existence. That must leave a bad taste in your mouth - a bit like sitting down in a public toilet to eat a fine meal.

 

[RogerDC]

I did not back down at all, for anything, and certainly not for your false teaching, false church, and false attitude.
The BIBLE SAYS, JESUS SAYS, that God hides salvation from the educated, that is a quote from the New Testament,
so you are now showing youself and those who go your way as not only the most stupid on earth, but also without salvation, as written in what you deny.

No doubt about it - you're a deadset genius - a comic genius! I love the way you can say the most absurd things and keep a straight face. Thanks for the entertainment.

 

[mjrhealth]

I feel sorry for you - every time you open your Bible you are reminded that an antichrist-harlot church was responsible for bringing it into existence. That must leave a bad taste in your mouth - a bit like sitting down in a public toilet to eat a fine meal.

If that is all you have to justify your religion than well that is all you have. Besides it is Christ that saves, not the bible and not religion, and God doesnt need the bible to save anyone,

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

[mailmandan]

In that case, stop lying - you know I believe in "salvation by faith and works" but you misleadingly and falsely call it "salvation by works". They are not the same thing. Are you really that low and dishonest?

I'm not lying and to call it "salvation by works" is not misleading, low and dishonest. You really have an attitude. The implication of "salvation by works" is not that someone who teaches we are also saved by works does not at least include "their version" of faith in the equation, but rather, they "add works" to salvation by faith, so it's salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works. I'm yet to hear anyone who claims they are also saved by works also claim that they have no faith whatsoever. This is common sense and should not need to be explained.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach we are saved by works and he basically "redefined" faith to "include works," so saved by faith turned into saved by faith "infused" with works, hence (their version of faith). I discovered the root of the problem. That same Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

So the Roman Catholic argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) and works. Roman Catholics seem to think that by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works in any way, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. It's all just sugar coated double talk and Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors.

 

[Joseph77]

"The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires your total attention. A lot of you are going to assume that you’ll sit down to God’s salvation banquet just because you’ve been hanging around the neighborhood all your lives. Well, one day you’re going to be banging on the door, wanting to get in, but you’ll find the door locked and the Master saying, ‘Sorry, you’re not on my guest list.’"

biblegateway.com

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not lying and to call it "salvation by works" is not misleading, low and dishonest. You really have an attitude. The implication of "salvation by works" is not that someone who teaches we are also saved by works does not at least include "their version" of faith in the equation, but rather, they "add works" to salvation by faith, so it's salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works. I'm yet to hear anyone who claims they are also saved by works also claim that they have no faith whatsoever. This is common sense and should not need to be explained.

I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach we are saved by works and he basically "redefined" faith to "include works," so saved by faith turned into saved by faith "infused" with works, hence (their version of faith). I discovered the root of the problem. That same Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

So the Roman Catholic argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) and works. Roman Catholics seem to think that by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works in any way, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. It's all just sugar coated double talk and Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors.

if they would actually study the OT and the jewish system, They would soon realize how close their religion pretty much parallels that of the Jews. Only different rules. Different sacrifices (sacraments) and different terms

 

[Joseph77]

if they would actually study the OT and the jewish system, They would soon realize how close their religion pretty much parallels that of the Jews. Only different rules. Different sacrifices (sacraments) and different terms

And remember, the Jewish system, as given by the Creator God, was Given by the Creator, God, God's Way, God's Plan, God's Purpose.
The other counterfeit(s) was/were given by the created god, perceived or accepted as god, opposed to God, though still in God's Purpose and God's Plan.
i.e. the god of this world stated clearly in Ephesians 2, etc etc etc ....