The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Dcopymope

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All of them. You're getting warmer!! :)

Ok, well, I don't believe the issue is as simple as people often make it out to be. Adam and Eve eating from that other tree God strictly prohibited them from is what brought about spiritual death, as sin and the very knowledge of it entered the world because of it. This is why God promised their death in the day they ate from it. Its crystal clear that God cursed the earth, pretty self explanatory. But its peoples interpretation of the curse of physical death and its relation to spiritual death that I have an issue with. Its often claimed that spiritual death is what brought about physical death, yet that clearly doesn't fit the narrative presented in Eden.

If this were really true, God wouldn't have been so concerned about their access to the tree of life afterwards to start with, since their spiritual death would makes their physical death inevitable regardless. If by "spiritual death" they mean separation from God, then it all begins to make a ton more sense. It explains why God told Moses he would die if he saw his face for instance. But when it comes to the body itself, its pretty clear to me from Jesus's explanation of the promised "glorified body" that he could have designed our bodies with immortality to begin with, if he really wanted to. He didn't, because he knew what was going to happen and planned accordingly, he is no moron.

(Luke 20:34-38) "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: {35} But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: {36} Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. {37} Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. {38} For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

At no point is the body itself ever explained away as the reason why we will attain sinless perfection. The spiritual component of the soul is an entirely different matter than the body. Its expected that scriptures like Romans 5:12 will be quoted as a "rebuttal", but exegesis is supposed to be all about consistency. If sin in itself brings death, then Satan would have dropped dead long ago. He certainly wouldn't have been up there in heaven accusing Job of being a turncoat to Gods face. Him being able to stand before God as a sinful angelic being just shows that "spiritual death" is a more complex matter than typically assumed when it comes to humanity. "Spiritual death" leads to physical death, but only for us, and only in the very presence of God Almighty, because we are living souls, not living spirits. He wants a real relationship with his image bearers, and it will not happen as long as sin exists.
 

Joseph77

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Its often claimed that spiritual death is what brought about physical death, yet that clearly doesn't fit the narrative presented in Eden.
fwiw , in decades or even from centuries of teachings or testimonies, etc, I never saw (or don't remember) any group ever saying this.

Do you know of a couple of groups, or teachers, who do at this time today, or in the past one hundred years ?
 

Dcopymope

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fwiw , in decades or even from centuries of teachings or testimonies, etc, I never saw (or don't remember) any group ever saying this.

Do you know of a couple of groups, or teachers, who do at this time today, or in the past one hundred years ?

Its been said plenty of times by people here, and across the internet.
 

Paul Christensen

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Ok, well, I don't believe the issue is as simple as people often make it out to be. Adam and Eve eating from that other tree God strictly prohibited them from is what brought about spiritual death, as sin and the very knowledge of it entered the world because of it. This is why God promised their death in the day they ate from it. Its crystal clear that God cursed the earth, pretty self explanatory. But its peoples interpretation of the curse of physical death and its relation to spiritual death that I have an issue with. Its often claimed that spiritual death is what brought about physical death, yet that clearly doesn't fit the narrative presented in Eden.

If this were really true, God wouldn't have been so concerned about their access to the tree of life afterwards to start with, since their spiritual death would makes their physical death inevitable regardless. If by "spiritual death" they mean separation from God, then it all begins to make a ton more sense. It explains why God told Moses he would die if he saw his face for instance. But when it comes to the body itself, its pretty clear to me from Jesus's explanation of the promised "glorified body" that he could have designed our bodies with immortality to begin with, if he really wanted to. He didn't, because he knew what was going to happen and planned accordingly, he is no moron.



At no point is the body itself ever explained away as the reason why we will attain sinless perfection. The spiritual component of the soul is an entirely different matter than the body. Its expected that scriptures like Romans 5:12 will be quoted as a "rebuttal", but exegesis is supposed to be all about consistency. If sin in itself brings death, then Satan would have dropped dead long ago. He certainly wouldn't have been up there in heaven accusing Job of being a turncoat to Gods face. Him being able to stand before God as a sinful angelic being just shows that "spiritual death" is a more complex matter than typically assumed when it comes to humanity. "Spiritual death" leads to physical death, but only for us, and only in the very presence of God Almighty, because we are living souls. He wants a real relationship with his image bearers, and it will not happen as long as sin exists.
A big long response to a simple answer to a simple question!

The simple answer that Adam's disobedience brought the curse upon the world and mankind. The reason why Jesus died on the cross was to bear God's wrath and the curse, and to take upon Himself the penalty for our sinfulness, which was part of the curse on us. The Scripture says, "Cursed is he who hangs on a tree". When Jesus cried out, "It is finished", it meant that He paid the whole "fine" that we would have had to pay at the judgment. But when we stand before God at the Judgment, He will say, "Your fine has been paid. You can go free".

That is why we have to make it quite clear to an unsaved person's conscience that because he has broken the Ten Commandments he is under God's curse and therefore will be condemned at the Judgment. When he realises that, and says, "What shall I do?" Then you can show Jesus coming to died on the cross to take that curse off him and that there will be no penalty to pay at the Judgment.

This has been the most effective way of people turning to Christ through the preaching of the gospel. Peter did it on the day of Pentecost. He hit their conscience and they were "pricked at the heart". Paul did the same to the Romans, especially in Romans 1-3 when he clearly pointed out that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". He told the Greeks in Athens that their "Unknown God" was the creator of the world and He has commanded all men everywhere to repent. Jesus hit at the conscience of the rich young ruler who thought he was keeping all the commandments, but had his coveting revealed to his conscience, after Jesus telling him that no one was good except God, and that included the young man. Jesus also hit to consciences of His listeners when He said that even if a person hated another in his heart, he was a murderer, and if a man looked on a woman with lust, he was an adulterer at heart. All of His listeners would have been reminded when they had hated someone, or looked with lust at a woman, and would know in their conscience that they were murderers and adulterers at heart in the sight of God.

What Jesus did in His teaching was to show the unconverted Jews that they were sinners through His preaching of the Law, and that they needed something more than the blameless observance of the Law as demonstrated by the Pharisees.

In fact, Jesus preached the Ten Commandments, so did Peter and Paul, and that was the reason why they succeeded in the Roman Empire turning from paganism to being Christianized through the first three centuries until Constantine made it official that the Roman Empire was now Christian.

The reason why we can't turn our societies to Christ is because we are preaching a Jewish oriented gospel to a world of neo-pagans who don't have a Biblical world view any longer.
 

Joseph77

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Its been said plenty of times by people here, and across the internet.
Posters I've seen have frequently said that there were other people saying that justification by keeping the law was possible also - that someone was claiming to be able to be saved by keeping the law,
but not one was quoted.

Can you quote one who says what you claim they said ? (here or anywhere)
 

Dcopymope

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Posters I've seen have frequently said that there were other people saying that justification by keeping the law was possible also - that someone was claiming to be able to be saved by keeping the law,
but not one was quoted.

Can you quote one who says what you claim they said ? (here or anywhere)

People basically say it everyday with their elementary explanation of the glorified body. You can search for that yourself if you wish, life is too short.
 

Joseph77

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In fact, Jesus preached the Ten Commandments, so did Peter and Paul, and that was the reason why they succeeded in the Roman Empire turning from paganism to being Christianized through the first three centuries until Constantine made it official that the Roman Empire was now Christian.

The reason why we can't turn our societies to Christ is because we are preaching a Jewish oriented gospel to a world of neo-pagans who don't have a Biblical world view any longer.
There seems to be a dis-continuity here, as if a clerical error.
Jesus and the Apostles did obey and teach the ten commandments, and more than that they lived honoring the Almighty Creator Who gave the commandments, and they showed they loved God by obeying Him, and they were Jewish -
but
then where does the next idea, about preaching a Jewish oriented gospel today come from ? Such that that is the reason why we can't turn our societies to Christ? (although no one ever turned society to Christ - society in Galatians is definitely stated by God to be pernicious, death dealing, and Jesus did not die to save society) .....
 

Joseph77

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People basically say it everyday with their elementary explanation of the glorified body. You can search for that yourself if you wish, life is too short.
I've searched for a long time, and what you have posted is not seen, so you appear to be wrong.
 

Joseph77

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Open to anyone question: Has ANYONE EVER SEEN THIS(not on this forum) from someone that you can quote >>>

Its often claimed that spiritual death is what brought about physical death.
 

Dcopymope

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A big long response to a simple answer to a simple question!

The simple answer that Adam's disobedience brought the curse upon the world and mankind. The reason why Jesus died on the cross was to bear God's wrath and the curse, and to take upon Himself the penalty for our sinfulness, which was part of the curse on us. The Scripture says, "Cursed is he who hangs on a tree". When Jesus cried out, "It is finished", it meant that He paid the whole "fine" that we would have had to pay at the judgment. But when we stand before God at the Judgment, He will say, "Your fine has been paid. You can go free".

That is why we have to make it quite clear to an unsaved person's conscience that because he has broken the Ten Commandments he is under God's curse and therefore will be condemned at the Judgment. When he realises that, and says, "What shall I do?" Then you can show Jesus coming to died on the cross to take that curse off him and that there will be no penalty to pay at the Judgment.

This has been the most effective way of people turning to Christ through the preaching of the gospel. Peter did it on the day of Pentecost. He hit their conscience and they were "pricked at the heart". Paul did the same to the Romans, especially in Romans 1-3 when he clearly pointed out that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". He told the Greeks in Athens that their "Unknown God" was the creator of the world and He has commanded all men everywhere to repent. Jesus hit at the conscience of the rich young ruler who thought he was keeping all the commandments, but had his coveting revealed to his conscience, after Jesus telling him that no one was good except God, and that included the young man. Jesus also hit to consciences of His listeners when He said that even if a person hated another in his heart, he was a murderer, and if a man looked on a woman with lust, he was an adulterer at heart. All of His listeners would have been reminded when they had hated someone, or looked with lust at a woman, and would know in their conscience that they were murderers and adulterers at heart in the sight of God.

What Jesus did in His teaching was to show the unconverted Jews that they were sinners through His preaching of the Law, and that they needed something more than the blameless observance of the Law as demonstrated by the Pharisees.

In fact, Jesus preached the Ten Commandments, so did Peter and Paul, and that was the reason why they succeeded in the Roman Empire turning from paganism to being Christianized through the first three centuries until Constantine made it official that the Roman Empire was now Christian.

The reason why we can't turn our societies to Christ is because we are preaching a Jewish oriented gospel to a world of neo-pagans who don't have a Biblical world view any longer.

I gave a long complex response to a complex issue. Also, you keep bringing up the ten commandments as if its a standard that is completely unattainable, yet we see scriptures like this.

(Luke 1:5-6) "¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. {6} And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

All the commandments and ordinances or just some? How do you explain this?
 

Paul Christensen

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There seems to be a dis-continuity here, as if a clerical error.
Jesus and the Apostles did obey and teach the ten commandments, and more than that they lived honoring the Almighty Creator Who gave the commandments, and they showed they loved God by obeying Him, and they were Jewish -
but
then where does the next idea, about preaching a Jewish oriented gospel today come from ? Such that that is the reason why we can't turn our societies to Christ? (although no one ever turned society to Christ - society in Galatians is definitely stated by God to be pernicious, death dealing, and Jesus did not die to save society) .....
Up until the 1960s the majority of people in our society had a Judeo-Christian world view, even though they never went to church themselves, therefore preaching and sharing the gospel from the Bible had much greater results than it does today.

In the late 1950s, when Billy Graham went to Australia and had a crusade, people all over the country listened to him on landlines in town halls and churches, as well as packing out the stadium where he actually preached. When he went back in the late 1960s, hardly any landlines were set up because there weren't enough people interested in attending to hear his preaching, and the results gained in the previous crusade were not near matched in the later crusade.

But now, the majority of unsaved people in our society no longer has that same Judeo-Christian world view, and they don't believe the Bible. So what might have been successful in the 1950s, is no longer successful now, because the church, in general are still in the 1950s as far as their preaching of the gospel is concerned. They are trying to preach a Judeo-Christian world view to a new generation, brought up on evolution in their schools and universities, who don't have any perception of it.

So those who are trying to preach the Judeo-Christian God are failing because modern people don't believe that there is a God. So that form of gospel preaching is foolishness to them, in the same way, as Paul said, preaching the cross to the Greeks is foolishness to them, and the Greeks in Athens saw him as a "babbler", except for a few who did believe the gospel.

So, what is the answer? It doesn't matter whether modern people have the appropriate world view or not; they still have their God-given conscience, and when the gospel is shared in a way that addresses their conscience, it has a greater chance of making sense to them and causing them to think very serious about where they are going to spend eternity when they die.
 
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Joseph77

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ouch, why did you use a proven false teacher (though very popular one) as an example. Note that when investigators went back to cities where he had had a so-called 'revival' , they could not find even one or two disciples still in the area, out of all those who had 'raised their hand' and filled out a card...
 

Paul Christensen

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I gave a long complex response to a complex issue. Also, you keep bringing up the ten commandments as if its a standard that is completely unattainable, yet we see scriptures like this.



All the commandments and ordinances or just some? How do you explain this?
Haven't you read what Paul said about the Law? The Law is there to make us conscious of our sinfulness before God. He says that it is a tutor to lead us to Christ. If we don't know that we are condemned sinners according to the Law, how can we know what Christ is saving us from? If the doctor says I need radiation treatment, but doesn't tell me that I have cancer, then I would seriously question why I should need the radiation treatment! Does the doctor mean that I am condemned to die from cancer because he tells me I have it, or does he tell me the bad news so that I will gladly accept the remedy?

I tried to tell unsaved people that God loves them and they need for Him to save them. Their answer was, "Saved from what?" I didn't know how to answer them, so I was scuppered and they knew they had won. Conversation over.

Peter didn't say anything like that when he addressed the crowd on the day of Pentecost. He said, "The Jesus whom you crucified has become both Lord and Christ!" He hit at their conscience by showing them that they murdered their God! No wonder they were pricked at the heart and 3000 of them turned to Christ.

So, if a unsaved people don't know they are sinners, and the Ten Commandments is the only standard in which to know it, then how are they going to know what they are saved from? If they do adopt Christianity, they will only be joining a religious 'club' and not being converted to Christ in their hearts, and will just carry on with the things they did before. One can be a lost sinner, attending church, living a moral life, believing the Bible, and believing that God loves them.
 
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Joseph77

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"The Jesus whom you crucified has become both Lord and Christ!"

So few today , although it is becoming more Jews, and maybe more gentiles if revivals are happening as some have noted....
so few today are pierced to the heart for their sin , crucifying Jesus ......
 

Dcopymope

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Haven't you read what Paul said about the Law? The Law is there to make us conscious of our sinfulness before God. He says that it is a tutor to lead us to Christ. If we don't know that we are condemned sinners according to the Law, how can we know what Christ is saving us from? If the doctor says I need radiation treatment, but doesn't tell me that I have cancer, then I would seriously question why I should need the radiation treatment! Does the doctor mean that I am condemned to die from cancer because he tells me I have it, or does he tell me the bad news so that I will gladly accept the remedy?

I tried to tell unsaved people that God loves them and they need for Him to save them. Their answer was, "Saved from what?" I didn't know how to answer them, so I was scuppered and they knew they had won. Conversation over.

Peter didn't say anything like that when he addressed the crowd on the day of Pentecost. He said, "The Jesus whom you crucified has become both Lord and Christ!" He hit at their conscience by showing them that they murdered their God! No wonder they were pricked at the heart and 3000 of them turned to Christ.

So, if a unsaved people don't know they are sinners, and the Ten Commandments is the only standard in which to know it, then how are they going to know what they are saved from? If they do adopt Christianity, they will only be joining a religious 'club' and not being converted to Christ in their hearts, and will just carry on with the things they did before. One can be a lost sinner, attending church, living a moral life, believing the Bible, and believing that God loves them.

default_mellow.png
, Ok, but you still didn't answer my question about Luke 1:5-6. Is it possible for one to keep the law or not? If not, then why is Luke stating otherwise?
 

Helen

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It seems that people on this forum seem not to like being asked questions like this. I wonder why? There is no threat, or so I think, in it. It is the same when I ask someone on the forum whether they think they are good. They seems to avoid answering that question like the plague! Is it, maybe, that they might discover that they are not as good as they think they are, and that is a threat somehow to their faith?

The thing is I guess, you may not feel that your posts come across as bossy or 'threatening ' ...
For me when a person asks a lot of question it seems as if they are really saying :- " Now let me see if you have it right, like 'I' have it right."
If someone answers by saying what YOU believe to be correct, then they are okay, if they don't then, tut tut, they are wrong. So, actually that make you sitting in judgement over others.

That is how you sound and come across to me as I read some of you posts.
You don't ask in a friendly chatty way, but in a demanding way.

Just saying...
 

Paul Christensen

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default_mellow.png
, Ok, but you still didn't answer my question about Luke 1:5-6. Is it possible for one to keep the law or not? If not, then why is Luke stating otherwise?
I don't think you are getting my point. When we give the gospel to the unsaved, we use the Law to show them they are sinners before God. We are going at their conscience. Once they acknowledge they are sinners and are prepared to humble themselves, then we show the the grace and love of God through Christ.

If I am going to apply the Law to a professing Christian, then it will be to a "nominal" Christian where I am not sure of their full commitment to Christ. But if the person is genuinely converted, they will be quick to acknowledge that though they are guilty according to the Law, that Jesus has taken the penalty of it on Himself and they are trusting Him that their case will be dismissed at the Judgment.

Those who abuse me for applying the Ten Commandments, are those who know in their conscience that they have something they are trying to hide from God and they don't want to admit it, so they abuse and discredit me to ease their own conscience.
 

Joseph77

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When sin is hiding in someone's heart, or when sin is hiding within someone, it will eventually be revealed , but not necessarily in time to save them - perhaps not until judgment day.
 

Paul Christensen

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The thing is I guess, you may not feel that your posts come across as bossy or 'threatening ' ...
For me when a person asks a lot of question it seems as if they are really saying :- " Now let me see if you have it right, like 'I' have it right."
If someone answers by saying what YOU believe to be correct, then they are okay, if they don't then, tut tut, they are wrong. So, actually that make you sitting in judgement over others.

That is how you sound and come across to me as I read some of you posts.
You don't ask in a friendly chatty way, but in a demanding way.

Just saying...
So, is there something that you are hiding from God that you wouldn't want Him to see? In my experience in sharing the gospel around people, is that when a person has a negative reaction, it is because something has pricked their conscience and they don't feel good, and so to relieve their conscience they try to make out that I am being demanding in an unfair way, when all I have done is ask a simple question which they don't want to answer, because there is a conflict in their conscience.

Otherwise you would happily answer my question without the negative reaction. My belief is that if there is something irritating you, it means that there is something in you that is being irritated.