The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[mailmandan]

if they would actually study the OT and the jewish system, They would soon realize how close their religion pretty much parallels that of the Jews. Only different rules. Different sacrifices (sacraments) and different terms

Yes, the Jewish system, as was distorted by the Pharisees.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, the Jewish system, as was distorted by the Pharisees.

and they used many of the same arguments that the catholics use..

 

[Joseph77]

and they used many of the same arguments that the catholics use..

But they did have Torah, as God Gave the Jews Torah, God entrusted the Jews (or Israelites) with His Word.

That other group, no.

So one started with truth from God.

The other did not.

 

[RogerDC]

how does work negate faith? and how could you possibly come to the conclusion you have come to?

In a previous post, you provided this formula: “Faith plus works = works.” That means, if a believer performs good works, faith disappears, so he not longer has faith - so good works destroys faith.
Don’t blame me for your idiotic formula - you wrote it!

true saving faith

There is no such thing as “true faith” or “saving faith” or “true saving faith” mentioned in the Bible - they are unscriptural concepts invented by confused, backyard amateurs. In the Bible, faith and works are always treated as separate and distinct things, as in
James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”;

or as in Romans 6, where Paul speaks to the faithful that righteousness (aka “works”) leads to life and sin (aka “works”) lead to death;

or as in Gal 5 where Paul warns believers that their sins (aka “works”) can land them in Hell;

or as in 1John 2:3-4, where John tells believers to keep “His commandment”;

or as in 1Peter 1 where Peter tells believers that they will be judged according to their works.

simple logic says, that If I do not believe there is such a thing as faith apart from works. then in my view EVERYONE who has true saving faith in christ WILL WORK.

What on earth are you talking about? That’s not “simple logic” - it’s simply bible-babble.

 

[RogerDC]

.... except Jesus rebuked them both.... the false teachers / false gospel/ condemned billions of souls ......

Jesus brought Truth, Jesus Is Truth. God Provides Thru Jesus Salvation.... Salvation not provided in those false systems.

What is your formula for salvation?

 

[RogerDC]

hearers only and not doers. People who CLAIMED to have faith, But had no (zero zip nada) works. can this "type" f faith save them?

I’m with you so far, but what does James mean by “works”?

doers of the word

Please explain what "doers of the word” means. What does a “doer of the word” DO, exactly?

religious people who think they must work to earn their salvation

I never said a believer must do works to “earn” their salvation. However, I did claim that believers must demonstrate their love for Christ by striving to keep his commandments (John 14:15, Rev 12:17, James 2:24) and strive to “conquer” their sins, thus proving themselves “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4-5). In other words, I claimed that God will judge believers according to their “works” - such that some believers will not be saved, due to their sins (ie, not obeying God’s commandments). (

work to earn their salvation

Is conquering one’s sins and proving oneself “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4-5, cf 3:2) the same as “earning” one’s salvation?

 

[RogerDC]

no no no, repentance is not works.

In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul describes how certain believers committed adultery, homosexuality and robbery, but they no longer committed those sins.

To stop practising those sins is to obey God’s commandments, is it not? And to obey the commandments is a good “work”, is it not? Therefore repentance is a good "work", is it not?

Repentance is the work of God, He changes us, He teaches us, He brings us to faith

Sure, but repentance is more than those things. Repentance also involves obeying God’s commandments to stop sinning, which is a result of the believer using his free will to cooperate with grace to obey God. Faith does not turn believers into robots that don’t sin.

Repentance is part of the process of sanctification. Have you never read Romans 6?

I did not earn my salvation by repenting, that’s laughable man!

What laughable is that I never said anything about earning your salvation.

I did not earn my salvation by repenting

I recently watched a documentary on a young man in Columbia who worked for a drug cartel - he committed serious sins such as kidnapping, torture and murder. But then he became a Christian, left the cartel and stopped committing those sins. If he became a Christian, but stayed in the cartel and continued the kidnapping, torture and murder, would he be saved?

 

[RogerDC]

Show me one person who had non living faith and was given eternal life.

That’s asking a bit much - no one is “given eternal life” until after they die and are judged by Christ.

 

[RogerDC]

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Interesting verse.
Firstly, how does a believer exam and test himself, to see if he is “in the faith”?

Secondly, if a believer exams and tests himself and then concludes that he is “in the faith”, does this mean he will be saved? Those believers whom Jesus condemned and said He “never knew” would have certainly considered themselves “in the faith”, because they performed miracles, prophesied and cast out demons in Jesus’ name (Matt 7:21-23).

Thirdly, how can that Scripture be reconciled with this one?:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5).
Paul is saying that even if exams and tests himself and cannot find any faults, that means nothing, because it is Christ who will judge him - in other works, Paul is saying he cannot reliably judge if he is faultless or not.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It seems to me that Paul contradicts you. He tells believers in Gal 5, Heb 12:14, 1Cor 6:9-11, Eph 5:5-11 that their sins can lead them to Hell. Therefore believers will be judged according to their sins and may end up in Hell because of them.

In 2Cor 5:10, Paul says, “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” Obviously, “we” includes all believers and to “receive good or evil” means going to Heaven or to Hell.

In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus indicates that He will condemn certain believers on Judgement Day, telling them, ‘I never knew you”.

Because all have broken the Ten Commandments, all will be found guilty at the last judgment. There will be no exceptions. Good deeds will not be considered, because people will not be judged on them. It will be the same as a child rapist standing before a judge and saying, "Yes, I committed the rapes, but I give to the Red Cross and I have done great service as a hospital doctor during the Corona Virus crisis." But the judge will say, "You are not here for your good deeds but for the crime of rape, therefore you will be sentenced to prison". Because God is the ultimate in strict judgment, His attitude will be just the same. He will not judge us on our good deeds, but our crimes against Him.

So, what can we use as a "parachute" to get us to land safely and avoid falling headlong into the pit of hell?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Because all have broken the Ten Commandments, all will be found guilty at the last judgment. There will be no exceptions. Good deeds will not be considered, because people will not be judged on them. It will be the same as a child rapist standing before a judge and saying, "Yes, I committed the rapes, but I give to the Red Cross and I have done great service as a hospital doctor during the Corona Virus crisis." But the judge will say, "You are not here for your good deeds but for the crime of rape, therefore you will be sentenced to prison". Because God is the ultimate in strict judgment, His attitude will be just the same. He will not judge us on our good deeds, but our crimes against Him.

So, what can we use as a "parachute" to get us to land safely and avoid falling headlong into the pit of hell?

I read these posts and I am reminded of the compassion Jesus had for the criminal hanging on a cross next to him....this man cried out and asked Jesus to have mercy on him and Jesus said this day you will be in paradise with me.
The other on mocked him and had no remorse.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I read these posts and I am reminded of the compassion Jesus had for the criminal hanging on a cross next to him....this man cried out and asked Jesus to have mercy on him and Jesus said this day you will be in paradise with me.

Ah! A clue! Why do you think that Jesus was able to legally forgive the man his sins and will advocate for him at the final judgment? Not arguing your point but getting further information.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Ah! A clue! Why do you think that Jesus was able to legally forgive the man his sins and will advocate for him at the final judgment? Not arguing your point but getting further information.

Because he was a repentful sinner.

 

[Heart2Soul]

And the beauty in this is that the man had no chance of receiving salvation and being baptized like we do, yet still Jesus assured him he would be with him in paradise.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Because he was a repentful sinner.

That is true, but a convicted criminal in front of a judge can be repentful but the judge has to uphold the law and sentence him to prison, otherwise he would not be dispensing justice. He may be a very forgiving and compassionate person but he would be fired from the Bench if he just let criminals go just for that reason. He would have to have a legal reason to be able to free a convicted criminal without penalty.

Jesus also has the same justice as well as a compassionate and forgiving nature. But He has to have a legal reason to have allowed that criminal to go free without penalty. There is a definite legal reason, but I want you to tell me, before I tell you.

 

[Heart2Soul]

That is true, but a convicted criminal in front of a judge can be repentful but the judge has to uphold the law and sentence him to prison, otherwise he would not be dispensing justice. He may be a very forgiving and compassionate person but he would be fired from the Bench if he just let criminals go just for that reason. He would have to have a legal reason to be able to free a convicted criminal without penalty.

Jesus also has the same justice as well as a compassionate and forgiving nature. But He has to have a legal reason to have allowed that criminal to go free without penalty. There is a definite legal reason, but I want you to tell me, before I tell you.

I suppose you are referring to the power of the cross....and what it represents.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I suppose you are referring to the power of the cross....and what it represents.

Yes, in general, but what was the central truth about why Jesus died on the cross?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yes, in general, but what was the central truth about why Jesus died on the cross?

Blood sacrifice for atonement of the sins of the world.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Blood sacrifice for atonement of the sins of the world.

Yep. That is an important part of it. So what has that accomplished in view of yours and my sins?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yep. That is an important part of it. So what has that accomplished in view of yours and my sins?

Well for myself it means that all sins that could ever be committed was nailed to the cross and was covered by His Blood and was for all who would receive Him as that Sacrificial Lamb and make Him Lord of their life to claim. So basically, it's under the blood already.