The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Heart2Soul]

Well for myself it means that all sins that could ever be committed was nailed to the cross and was covered by His Blood and was for all who would receive Him as that Sacrificial Lamb and make Him Lord of their life to claim. So basically, it's under the blood already.

And on that note I bid you goodnight...sleepy.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well for myself it means that all sins that could ever be committed was nailed to the cross and was covered by His Blood and was for all who would receive Him as that Sacrificial Lamb and make Him Lord of their life to claim. So basically, it's under the blood already.

Yes. Very true. When I am speaking to an unsaved person, I will tell them that it is because Jesus, through His finished work on the Cross has taken upon Himself the penalty for our sins, so that when we come before the Judge on judgment day, and found guilty because we have sinned, Jesus will have "paid our fine" and so God has a legal reason for us to go free without penalty. It is like coming before a judge convicted of speeding, incurring massive fines, but someone has paid those fines, and so the judge can legally set me free.

But just believing it, is like a passenger in an airplane just believing a parachute will save him if the plane catches fire and everyone has to jump to safety. He will have to put the parachute on and trust it, instead of depending on flapping his arms to get him to the ground safely. The Scripture says that we must "put on Christ", which is repenting and forsaking our sinful lifestyle, and trusting in His finished work that have removed the penalty from us. I believe that is why Jesus was able to forgive the criminal - because He was taking the penalty for his criminal acts upon Himself, and therefore He could legally tell the criminal, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In a previous post, you provided this formula: “Faith plus works = works.” That means, if a believer performs good works, faith disappears, so he not longer has faith - so good works destroys faith.
Don’t blame me for your idiotic formula -

You mean pauls formula?
No it does not mean if a believer performs works it equals salvation by works

it means if a person is trying to be saved by works, it is salvation by works

yu need comprehension skills man

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m with you so far, but what does James mean by “works”?Please explain what "doers of the word” means. What does a “doer of the word” DO, exactly? I never said a believer must do works to “earn” their salvation. However, I did claim that believers must demonstrate their love for Christ by striving to keep his commandments (John 14:15, Rev 12:17, James 2:24) and strive to “conquer” their sins, thus proving themselves “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4-5). In other words, I claimed that God will judge believers according to their “works” - such that some believers will not be saved, due to their sins (ie, not obeying God’s commandments). (Is conquering one’s sins and proving oneself “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4-5, cf 3:2) the same as “earning” one’s salvation?

Hmm

so if I have zero works, my faith is dead.

so according to James, how many works would mean a living faith

if zero equals no faith

then x = living faith

give me the value of x

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul describes how certain believers committed adultery, homosexuality and robbery, but they no longer committed those sins.

To stop practising those sins is to obey God’s commandments, is it not? And to obey the commandments is a good “work”, is it not? Therefore repentance is a good "work", is it not?Sure, but repentance is more than those things. Repentance also involves obeying God’s commandments to stop sinning, which is a result of the believer using his free will to cooperate with grace to obey God. Faith does not turn believers into robots that don’t sin.

Repentance is part of the process of sanctification. Have you never read Romans 6? What laughable is that I never said anything about earning your salvation.I recently watched a documentary on a young man in Columbia who worked for a drug cartel - he committed serious sins such as kidnapping, torture and murder. But then he became a Christian, left the cartel and stopped committing those sins. If he became a Christian, but stayed in the cartel and continued the kidnapping, torture and murder, would he be saved?

Yeah, he also said they never stop those sins,

he said the blood of Christ washed those sins, and justified them and sanctified them

repentance is not a work because it is not something you do on your own, it is the work of God, I know, that’s hard for you unto hear, but God gets the glory not me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s asking a bit much - no one is “given eternal life” until after they die and are judged by Christ.

If this is true

why did john day we can know we have it

1 John 5: 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

you need to stop relying so much on James, and start studying john

 

[Dave M]

Interesting verse.
Firstly, how does a believer exam and test himself, to see if he is “in the faith”?
..

this is such a awesome question brother !! thanks so much for asking, God does give us assurance of our salvation in his word,, I will get back to you on this.. Me growing up Catholic I can relate so much to this question, I was always taught we have to go to purgatory first,,,, but I do not believe that for one second. I will give you this for now, and come back later ,, God bless you brother


Matthew 7:15-21 (NKJV)
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And the beauty in this is that the man had no chance of receiving salvation and being baptized like we do, yet still Jesus assured him he would be with him in paradise.

Yet he received salvation like we all do

the only way he could be with Jesus in paradise is if he was saved

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yet he received salvation like we all do

the only way he could be with Jesus in paradise is if he was saved

Yes it was a repentful heart that Jesus saw....
He didn't get baptized by water and the Holy Spirit (at least not that I know)....so that was the difference I was pointing to.

 

[RogerDC]

romans 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Sorry, No Faith plus works anywhere to be found.. But if you wish to twist Gods word to continue to try to save yourself. feel free, Thats on you

In Romans 4 is basically this: Paul first points out that works without faith may impress men, but they don’t impress God (v.2). Paul then points out that what God values is faith, which is “righteousness apart from works” (v.6). You misunderstand it - Paul is not saying works are irrelevant to salvation; nor he is saying salvation rests on faith alone.

So I tell you I do not believe there is a possibility of faith without works

In that case, why does James warn believers that "faith without works is dead"? If faith automatically produces works, there would not need to issue such a warning. Does faith produce robots that cannot sin and can only do good works?

and your response is to show me how true faith results in works.

I take it you were agreeing with me?

So you agree that “keeping His commandments” is “works”?

 

[Dave M]

Secondly, if a believer exams and tests himself and then concludes that he is “in the faith”, does this mean he will be saved? Those believers whom Jesus condemned and said He “never knew” would have certainly considered themselves “in the faith”, because they performed miracles, prophesied and cast out demons in Jesus’ name (Matt 7:21-23).

First and foremost a person should see change when they are born again, every born again believer should see that they themselves are a new creature then they once were. They should no longer be living a life style of sin, they should be able to see a completely new self. I think every person can look deep and honestly at themselves and see if they have changed, a few test can be made on how we spend our money?? is it more on our self or more on the kingdom??? how about our thoughts?? is God number one in our thoughts?? how about are free time?? how much time are we in his word and prayer?? when we pray do we pray for God to do our will ?? or to we pray for God to help us do his will??

Make no mistake about it,... a born again believer knows he has been born again, if a person is not certain he is born again with no evidence in a changed life, then he is most likely not born again and therefore not saved yet.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


"If salvation can be lost, this requires a reversal of regeneration. This means the born again must become unborn again. And if they subsequently repent, then they must become born again again. Can a man also be born again again again? Where does it end? Is regeneration really so transient?"..... Randy Alcorn What Makes You Think Salvation Can't Be Lost? - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Romans 4 is basically this: Paul first points out that works without faith may impress men, but they don’t impress God (v.2). Paul then points out that what God values is faith, which is “righteousness apart from works” (v.6). You misunderstand it - Paul is not saying works are irrelevant to salvation; nor he is saying salvation rests on faith alone.

You skipped verse 4

now to him who works, the wage is not counted as GRACE but debt

you work for a wage, that’s why it cancels grace if your trying to earn it, because grace is not earned as a wage but a gift of mercy
You also skipped verse 5

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

her we have justification (accounted or imputed righteousness) by faith alone

In that case, why does James warn believers that "faith without works is dead"? If faith automatically produces works, there would not need to issue such a warning. Does faith produce robots that cannot sin and can only do good works?

Becuse there are people who have mere belief, like demons, who are hears of the word, but do not trust thenword or God, who need warned their dead faith will never save them

So you agree that “keeping His commandments” is “works”?

Yes, and if your trying to do them to be saved, you will fail

 

[Dave M]

Thirdly, how can that Scripture be reconciled with this one?: (1Cor 4:3-5).
Paul is saying that even if exams and tests himself and cannot find any faults, that means nothing, because it is Christ who will judge him - in other works, Paul is saying he cannot reliably judge if he is faultless or not.

Well if we look at the whole bible there are many clues for instance we know for a fact if you do certain things you are not getting into heaven unless you repent we actually have a list of things that if someone is doing we know you are not born again. looking at this list in more of real world experience we can see if someone is catching a buzz with alcohol on a regular basis or if someone is having sex outside of marriage, and the list goes on to say these type of people are not getting into heaven. when you get born again you hate sin and want to please your heavenly father, you will be given new desires.

Born again people know they are born again, Paul is speaking to the people that only Christ is to judge who has salvation or not, and the himself is not even worthy to make such a judgement. We should not judge others salvation,,,,,,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

what does this scripture say to that

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ..

 

[RogerDC]

You mean pauls formula?
No it does not mean if a believer performs works it equals salvation by works

In that case, Catholicism is not salvation by works.

 

[RogerDC]

repentance is not a work because it is not something you do on your own, it is the work of God

okay, let's consider the case where God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac: Abraham obeyed God's commandment, so was Abraham obedience the "work of God" or was it the result of Abraham's free will?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In that case, Catholicism is not salvation by works.

wrong

Catholicism is based on works.. Without works, Catholicism falls on its face

Of course you have purgatory (if your the sect of Catholicism that still believes in this, I know some no longer hold t it)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

okay, let's consider the case where God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac: Abraham obeyed God's commandment, so was Abraham obedience the "work of God" or was it the result of Abraham's free will?

Ok lets consider this

Abraham was considered or reckoned righteous all the way back in Gen 15. When he believed God (see also romans 4)

This event happened Before Issac was even born, and before he had done any good works. which proved his faith

When abraham went to sacrifice his sin, He did so because he had TRUE faith in God, as apposed to the "CLAIMED" faith people that James was up against, who believed God but did not actually trust God. or in the gospel. they were just playing a game

The bible tells us how great Abrahams faith was, and why he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Heb 11: 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

You see Abrahams faith was not dead. It was living, Even though he doubted God many times, In his years of learning to trust God, his faith became so full that he trusted that since God promised a seed THROUGH this son, God would keep his promise by raising him from the dead.

But abraham was saved many many years earlier. When he trusted what God promises. If you have any doubt, see romans 4.

 

[RogerDC]

Ok lets consider this

Abraham was considered or reckoned righteous all the way back in Gen 15. When he believed God (see also romans 4)

This event happened Before Issac was even born, and before he had done any good works. which proved his faith

When abraham went to sacrifice his sin, He did so because he had TRUE faith in God, as apposed to the "CLAIMED" faith people that James was up against, who believed God but did not actually trust God. or in the gospel. they were just playing a game

The bible tells us how great Abrahams faith was, and why he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Heb 11: 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

You see Abrahams faith was not dead. It was living, Even though he doubted God many times, In his years of learning to trust God, his faith became so full that he trusted that since God promised a seed THROUGH this son, God would keep his promise by raising him from the dead.

But abraham was saved many many years earlier. When he trusted what God promises. If you have any doubt, see romans 4.

You didn't answer my question. You say Abraham had "true faith", so when he obeyed God (with respect to sacrificing his son Isaac), was his obedience a "work of God" (as you call it) or was it the result of Abraham using his free will to obey?

I'm asking you this because you claim that repentance - which is actually conforming to God's commandments - is a "work of God" and not a result of a believer's free will.
My understanding of your doctrine is, if a believerr has "true faith", his subsequent obedience to God's commandments is a "work of God" and not the result of the believer's free will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You didn't answer my question. You say Abraham had "true faith", so when he obeyed God (with respect to sacrificing his son Isaac), was his obedience a "work of God" (as you call it) or was it the result of Abraham using his free will to obey?

I'm asking you this because you claim that repentance - which is actually conforming to God's commandments - is a "work of God" and not a result of a believer's free will.
My understanding of your doctrine is, if a believerr has "true faith", his subsequent obedience to God's commandments is a "work of God" and not the result of the believer's free will.

what it did was PROVE his faith, which saved him way back in genesis 15 was true saving faith.

Was it a work of God? Who proved to abraham that he was faithful? God or his son?

who continues to prove to us daily how faithful he is, And causes our works to increase as we trust in him?

as for claiming i said repentance is a work of God and not according to our free will. I said no such thing, when will you people stop assuming you know what others are thinking or saying?

God is the one who draws us, He shows us who he is (loving father but also a righteous judge) he shows us who we are (sinner and deserving of death) and he shows us what he did to rescue us from our fate (sent his son to die for us)

we have to CHOSE to repent of our world view. and learn to trust in Gods view.

But even as Jesus said when he was asked what works we must do.

"It is the WORK OF GOD that you believe in the one he sent.

 

[RogerDC]

Because all have broken the Ten Commandments, all will be found guilty at the last judgment. There will be no exceptions. Good deeds will not be considered, because people will not be judged on them.

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven Churches according to what they did right and what they did wrong (which includes their faith and their works, if you care to read those chapters). You will be judged the same way, I imagine.