The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[justbyfaith]

If the Catholic Church says Mary is a perpetual virgin and only had one child, then that is the truth.

Except that the word of the Lord teaches otherwise; and it is more of an authority on the truth than is the church; since it is written by the apostles of the church; and apostles have more authority than your average priest as he is going to write the doctrine of the church.

So Mary gave birth to all those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? How does Mary manage to give birth to millions/billions of Christians?

Are you really that dense. The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, is what we are saying; who gave birth to the Jewish people; who in the last days will keep the commandments of the Lord and the testimony of the Lord (see Romans 11:26).

 

[Truther]

My understanding is, the "woman clothed with the sun" in Rev 12 has three identities - Israel, the Virgin Mary, the Church.

Who made you understand it is 3 entities?

 

[Truther]

Try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church - you'll learn more from studying that in one day than you will from studying the Bible for a century. Relying on your own power to interpret the Bible always leads to false doctrine and false churches

Having the RCC interpret the Bible for us is safer?

Martin Luther would disagree if he were alive.

 

[Truther]

So Mary gave birth to all those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? How does Mary manage to give birth to millions/billions of Christians?

Mary birthed all that?

Now, since Christianity was birthed from Israel(Pentecost), and was prophesied by Jews, and is a continuation of a Promise to them by God, it is easy to see the roots of Christianity under attack in Rev 12.

The woman there is Israel.

The O.T. Promises are to Israel to be governed personally by Jesus Christ during His Millennial Reign.

He returns to save them from complete annihilation per Zech 14 etc.

This is why you see the dragon during the great tribulation chasing her to destroy her....to destroy God's promise before His return and make God a liar.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What person about to get married intends to remain a virgin? Mary did not know that she would be the mother of the Messiah before she heard the angel's voice; so what reason would she have for intending to remain a virgin?

And what person who is about to get married is "puzzled" when somebody tells them that they will get pregnant??
Only a moron wouldn't understand this. Is that what you think of Jesus's mother?

Mary was puzzled because of her intention to REMAIN a virgin.
This is further explained in the 2nd century document, the Protoevangeleum of James.

his mother's sister and Mary the wife of Cleophas are two different people; as I explained to you before.

Nice try, sparky - but what do you do with the fact that this other "Mary" standing there with "HIS" (Jesus's) mother is the mother of James and Joses??
Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

Even if you make the "wife of Clopas" somebody else - you have to deal with the fact that Mary's "Adelphe" is also called "Mary" who is the mother of James and Joses (Joseph).
You LOSE this one . . .

You are grasping at straws in order to defend your Catholic beliefs.

Then PROVE me wrong.
PROVE that the examples I gave are erroneous.

CAN you do that??
I didn't think so . . .

I do not twist it in the slightest...but I do believe that you are a Tritheist and therefore do not accept the preaching of the Oneness in the Trinity as I have set it forth.

You absolutely twisted the Trinitarian doctrine and tied it in knots with your Oneness heresy.

You should follow Jesus' example as you see it and not disrespect your elders...
This is what is truly shameful.

No - what is "shameful" are LIES - not admonishments or cases of rebuking when necessary.
As I stated before - it is NEVER too late to learn the truth.

What is most shameful of all - is people like YOU who defend lies instead of the truth.
Isa. 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Obedience to verse 5 below:
Pro 26:4, Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5, Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

TRANSLATION:
"I really stuck my foot in my mouth about Catholic statues when Protestants are JUST as guilty - and now I have NO defense for my foolish remarks."

That's what I thought . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here is the testimony in John:

Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This is the testimony of the apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Notice that it does not say, "because not only did they think that He broke the sabbath..." it says what it says.

And YOU don't understand that this is the perception of the Pharisees - and NOT a fact??
That's the WHOLE point of this story in the Gospel. This is THEIR VIEW of the Sabbath - and Jesus rebuked them and showed them they they were WRONG.

That's why I keep telling you to STOP quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it means.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matt 1:25 says ....”....he knew her not until..”
Right, sometimes a fella has to wait until the right time. Only a celibate priest would be puzzled by this statement in Matt.
....not one shred?
Okay, try this....
They refrained from sexual relations until....

Does this make it clearer?

And how many times must I embarrass you with the facts about the word "Until" (heos) before it finally sinks in?

And you have kids??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes I was, just like all practicing Catholics today.
Thank God the He delivered me from the idolatrous RCC.

That's funny.
I know thousands of practicing Catholic at my parish alone who don't pray to statues, nor is it taught in the Catechism.

Face it - YOU were an ignorant idolator . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, the woman is Israel.
Jesus was born an Israelite.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes.

This future prophecy shows the dragon chasing Israel around, not Mary.

Also, what is this speaking of?...

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Question, do you think Mary in heaven is being chased into the wilderness by satan?

Does the RCC teach that?

Nope - she is in Heaven, Einstein.
Mary GOT chased into the wilderness by Satan in the form of Herod who sought to kill (devour) her child - JUST like the Woman i Rev 12:1-5.
It's NOT just a "future" prophecy - but prophetic fulfillment.

Jesus WAS born an Israelite.
He was ALSO born of His mother, Mary.

The 12 stars are the 12 Tribes.
They are ALSO the 12 Apostles whose names are written on the 12 foundations of the Heavenly Jerusalem (Rev. 21:4).

This is what is known as polyvalent symbolism (sorry for the big word).
Read and S*T*U*D*Y your Bible, Einstein . . .

 

[Truther]

That's funny.
I know thousands of practicing Catholic at my parish alone who don't pray to statues, nor is it taught in the Catechism.

Face it - YOU were an ignorant idolator . . .

Yes, I did not run to statues in my youth, but plopped in front of them by their teachings.
It sounds like the RCC is about to ban statues these days as nobody prays to them anymore?

Or in South America only they bow to statues?

Which is it?

 

[Truther]

 

[Truther]

Nope - she is in Heaven, Einstein.
Mary GOT chased into the wilderness by Satan in the form of Herod who sought to kill (devour) her child - JUST like the Woman i Rev 12:1-5.
It's NOT just a "future" prophecy - but prophetic fulfillment.

Jesus WAS born an Israelite.
He was ALSO born of His mother, Mary.

The 12 stars are the 12 Tribes.
They are ALSO the 12 Apostles whose names are written on the 12 foundations of the Heavenly Jerusalem (Rev. 21:4).

This is what is known as polyvalent symbolism (sorry for the big word).
Read and S*T*U*D*Y your Bible, Einstein . . .

Okay, have it your way, RCC style.....


12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; MARY clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And MARY being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before MARY which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and MARY'S child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And MARY fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted MARY which brought forth the man child.

14 And to MARY were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after MARY, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped MARY, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with MARY, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



LOL

 

[BreadOfLife]

Her intention to remain a virgin??? You failed to provide scripture.
Further, on post #1349 you are on record as stating Revelation 12:1 as being MARY (and NOT Israel as scripture indicates).
You went on to say...
Therefore if this is truly Mary, as YOU say, then you have Mary with many children. Let's read on...
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Oppsss! You seem to have a major problem.

Okay, have it your way, RCC style.....

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; MARY clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And MARY being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before MARY which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and MARY'S child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And MARY fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted MARY which brought forth the man child.
14 And to MARY were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after MARY, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped MARY, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with MARY, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

LOL

No problem at ALL.
Neither of you anti-Catholic "geniuses" has a very good grasp on Scripture either.

Neither of you understands polyvalent symbolism nor do you understand that these passages are filled with prophecy AND fulfillment.
Some of these things have ALREADY happened.

Do you guys really believe that Satan is in Heaven and has YET to be case out??
Your ignorance is SURREAL . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, I did not run to statues in my youth, but plopped in front of them by their teachings.
It sounds like the RCC is about to ban statues these days as nobody prays to them anymore?

Or in South America only they bow to statues?

Which is it?

They're praying in front of the Eucharist, Einstein.

 

[justbyfaith]

And what person who is about to get married is "puzzled" when somebody tells them that they will get pregnant??

The angel was telling her that she would be pregnant without having sexual relations with her betrothed, Joseph.

That is a reason for being puzzled.

It does not mean that once she was actually married to Joseph, she didn't intend to have sexual relations with her own husband. That would be ridiculous. Why do people get married in the first place? So they can have a family.

Your religion is causing you to be blind to common sense.

Only a moron wouldn't understand this. Is that what you think of Jesus's mother?

More excellent fruit.

Nice try, sparky - but what do you do with the fact that this other "Mary" standing there with "HIS" (Jesus's) mother is the mother of James and Joses??

There are three Mary's...Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany, and Mary the mother of James and Joses (and of Jesus).

Even if you make the "wife of Clopas" somebody else - you have to deal with the fact that Mary's "Adelphe" is also called "Mary" who is the mother of James and Joses (Joseph).

I believe that it was even one of you who mentioned that it goes against Jewish tradition to name two siblings by the same name. These verses do not prove that Mary had a sister named Mary in the slightest therefore.

Then PROVE me wrong.
PROVE that the examples I gave are erroneous.

CAN you do that??
I didn't think so . . .

The examples you gave can in all actuality be isolated from the specific example of "until" in Matthew 1:25. The normal understanding of that word is what we are looking at.

You absolutely twisted the Trinitarian doctrine and tied it in knots with your Oneness heresy.

My understanding is not completely Oneness; and I believe that even Oneness Pentecostals would say that I do not subscribe fully to their view. For in my view there is a definite distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

I think that you didn't read all five posts in which I attempted to describe my understanding to you.

In this thread:

True Trinity.

No - what is "shameful" are LIES - not admonishments or cases of rebuking when necessary.

In 1 Timothy 5:1-2, we are told not to rebuke those who are older than us but to intreat them as an elder.

"I really stuck my foot in my mouth about Catholic statues when Protestants are JUST as guilty

Not really. I am saying that the point that they were making in making those statues was that it is indeed idolatry to revere statues. They were answering fools according to their folly, lest they be wise in their own eyes. But in doing so, they also became like them. But it worked; for you even admit that it is idolatry for them to have statues like that. Therefore, if it is idolatry for Protestants, it is also idolatry when Catholics do the same thing. And that is the point they were attempting to make; for I am certain that they anticipated such a judgment from the Catholic community.

And YOU don't understand that this is the perception of the Pharisees - and NOT a fact??
That's the WHOLE point of this story in the Gospel. This is THEIR VIEW of the Sabbath - and Jesus rebuked them and showed them they they were WRONG.

That's why I keep telling you to STOP quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it means.

As I said, John 5:18 is the estimation of John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost; and nowhere in the verse does John tell us that this was only the estimation of the scribes and Pharisees.

Iow, John by the Holy Ghost is saying that Jesus broke the sabbath as it is written in the law.

However, because Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath, and because He lives for ever; He is also not subject to the law of the sabbath.

And how many times must I embarrass you with the facts about the word "Until" (heos) before it finally sinks in?

And you have kids??

Abba Father, I lift up @BreadOfLife to You; and I ask you to show him that he is not bearing the right kind of fruit. Help him to take the beam out of his own eye before trying to take a speck out of his brother's eye. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Neither of you understands polyvalent symbolism

Jde 1:16, These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

[Enow]

They're praying in front of the Eucharist, Einstein.

How does that not make the Eucharist an idol, too?

 

[Truther]

They're praying in front of the Eucharist, Einstein.

Is that the name of Mary’s statue?

 

[Truther]

No problem at ALL.
Neither of you anti-Catholic "geniuses" has a very good grasp on Scripture either.

Neither of you understands polyvalent symbolism nor do you understand that these passages are filled with prophecy AND fulfillment.
Some of these things have ALREADY happened.

Do you guys really believe that Satan is in Heaven and has YET to be case out??
Your ignorance is SURREAL . . .

I especially like the RCC’s part of Mary’s kids getting chased around by Satan.

 

[justbyfaith]

celibate priests is also not biblical:

1Ti 3:1, This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2, A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3, Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4, One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5, (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

At the very least the Catholic Church ought to change their doctrine to allow their priests of the highest order (bishops) to marry and have children.

 

[RogerDC]

Yes, I did not run to statues in my youth, but plopped in front of them by their teachings.
It sounds like the RCC is about to ban statues these days as nobody prays to them anymore?

Or in South America only they bow to statues?

Which is it?

No Catholic believes statues have any power whatsoever, hence no Catholic prays to statues. So you're barking up he wrong tree - how many times do you have to be told? I suspect you're the sort of person whose pride is such that you have a great deal of trouble accepting that you're wrong - either that or you've got a serious learning difficulty of some kind. Oh, the other possibility is you have no love of the truth - this would explain your stiff-necked animus towards God's Church.