The Natural Sheep and Goats

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jeffweeder

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Yes, Israel has been scattered throughout the Nations for thousands of years. Do you think they have all returned in the last 80 years?

If you think that means every single human, then your version of Amil is as gibberish as the other poster's view.

Jesus is gathering His kingdom out of the Nations

Jesus is gathering the whole flock out of the nations.

John 10:16
I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.
 

robert derrick

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Look, I appreciate the hard work of scholarship as much as the next guy, but you have to learn to be more disciplined in what you say about the book you are reading, and the subject at hand.

Especially when it comes to the Bible and perfect Scripture of truth. When you use words to teach something, first make sure they are confirmed by Scripture.



These are the only 2 types of people on earth from the beginning.
In the beginning of man on earth, there were only two types of people: Man and Women.

Both are created in the image of God with natural bodies, and so they still are today. Though from the womb of the mother.

Hello! The Church is "the righteous"! They are "the saints" of God.

Them that do righteousness are the righteous, and are members of the body of Christ.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.



Both are judged when Jesus comes.
The first judgment, which is ongoing, is between them naming the name of Christ only, while still doing unrighteous works of the flesh, and then repented and doing righteousness only.

The judgement on the earth after His return, will be of all natural unbelievers remaining on earth, whether being neighborly sheep or wicked goats.


  • There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
The righteous in works, but not by the faith of Jesus, but what is only natural to feeling men and women.
 

robert derrick

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The Sheep/Goats judgement is nothing more than a "Parable" of the final judgement, Just as scripture teaches below

The righteous sheep go into eternal life, the wicked goats into everlasting punishment (The End)

There isn't a Millennial Kingdom on this earth that follows after this judgement as you believe and teach, it's (The End) eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Making parables of Scripture, where no parable is, is an end of discussion.
 

robert derrick

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I think these sheep will be those who heeded God's two witnesses, to receive the Jews as God's chosen nation. So these will be people who cared for the Jews as the beast is trying to destroy them. They will have defied the beast empire in order to do this.

Much love!
They will be those caring for persecuted Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, despite the danger to their lives.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 

robert derrick

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You now have "Natural Sheep" who don't have a clue on what's going on, they are just chosen to stay on earth in your proclaimed kingdom?
Disrupting what is being said, and making it look foolish, is not an honest response, but an end to the conversation.

The conversation is over, because the goal of one is only to believe their own minds, and to avoid any fair points made by others.
 

robert derrick

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Your claim is false, the wicked goats will be cast into the lake of fire, and the righteous sheep will enter the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

P.S. at the final judgment hell is cast into the lake of fire
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The first everlasting fire Lucifer and the angels were cast into, was flames of hell, not the lake of fire:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The goats will be killed and cast down into hell, like all the wicked that die in their sins:

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The King's rule on earth will begin only with naturally good sheep. The armies will be slain immediately, and then the wicked not gathered with the armies, will be judged and slain.

There will be peace on earth, and the King and His reigning saints will ensue it over all nations.
 

robert derrick

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Good works do not determine our salvation they determine our reward. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 similarly says, “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Rewards of ministry, are for ministerial works.

Reward of punishment is for unrighteous works of the flesh:

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
 

robert derrick

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This is exactly what you are doing Robert.
Judging others as teaching falsely, because they do not agree with your own teaching, is not reading into Scripture one's own teaching.


If you were to use the rest of scripture, you would know that people are thrown into the everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels at the GWT.

No. At the beginning of Lucifer's rebellion, which is this hell:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Hell is their first torment, and they are still waiting for the lake of fire.

I don't agree with you, because your words do not agree with Scripture, begins you read into Scripture you're own mindset.
Nobody is punished in this way without the book of life opened first.
Once again, your own words, not God's.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


You would also realize that Jesus comes again to preside over this judgment with all his Angels.
Once again, your own words only:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

His resurrected saints come with Him to fight the armies at Armageddon, and then rule with Him over those remaining on earth.

Minus the goats.

If you would first make sure Scripture confirms your words, rather than contradicts them, then you will be teaching Scripture more accurately, rather than your own mindset.
 

WPM

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Look, I appreciate the hard work of scholarship as much as the next guy, but you have to learn to be more disciplined in what you say about the book you are reading, and the subject at hand.

Especially when it comes to the Bible and perfect Scripture of truth. When you use words to teach something, first make sure they are confirmed by Scripture.




In the beginning of man on earth, there were only two types of people: Man and Women.

Both are created in the image of God with natural bodies, and so they still are today. Though from the womb of the mother.



Them that do righteousness are the righteous, and are members of the body of Christ.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.




The first judgment, which is ongoing, is between them naming the name of Christ only, while still doing unrighteous works of the flesh, and then repented and doing righteousness only.

The judgement on the earth after His return, will be of all natural unbelievers remaining on earth, whether being neighborly sheep or wicked goats.



The righteous in works, but not by the faith of Jesus, but what is only natural to feeling men and women.

Hello! The Scriptures are very clear. You cannot fight with what it is saying. People are either saved or lost. They are either forgiven or unforgiven. They are either a child of God or a child of the devil. This is basic 101 Christianity. Your Premil beliefs are causing you to change Scripture to let your theology fit. This is not wise!

There is one Gospel, one hope, one redeemer, one salvation, one redemptive act that delivers man from eternal doom, one people of God and Dispensationalism is wrong. Man, from the beginning, is either found "in Adam" (through natural birth) and experiences eternal damnation or is found "in Christ " (through spiritual birth) and experiences eternal life.
 

WPM

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Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The first everlasting fire Lucifer and the angels were cast into, was flames of hell, not the lake of fire:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The goats will be killed and cast down into hell, like all the wicked that die in their sins:

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The King's rule on earth will begin only with naturally good sheep. The armies will be slain immediately, and then the wicked not gathered with the armies, will be judged and slain.

There will be peace on earth, and the King and His reigning saints will ensue it over all nations.

Premil wrongly portrays a millennium of unparalleled peace and submission to Jesus where the lion and the lamb finally rest together in unity and love and where the glorified saints enjoy final bliss and then bam the slaughter trucks pull up to take these same sheep to Jerusalem for slaughter. How cruel and pointless! Then after a thousand literal years of supposed perfect peace and harmony where Jesus rules with a rod of iron, the millennial inheritors turn en-masse to Satan in their billions as the sand of the sea. It is this false picture and misplacement of Revelation 20 that Premil portrays that doesn't add up.
 

WPM

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If that is your fact, then Matthew 25 happened in the first century. It is not a future Second Coming. It is already happening over time. Jesus has been separating the sheep from the goats for 1992 years.

You may believe that. Amils believe the second coming is future.
 

robert derrick

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The separation of Christ's sheep from the goats, per Matthew 25, is about the separation of His Church from the wicked. But in His Book of Revelation, Lord Jesus gave more detail about that in Rev.20.

And per John 5:28-29, all... of the 'dead' are resurrected and go either to the "resurrection of life" or to the "resurrection of damnation". And they all remain in that state throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect.

On the day when Jesus returns, all... peoples still alive on earth will be 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' also to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. On the day Jesus comes, man's works are burned off this earth (2 Peter 3). That will END this present flesh world earth age.

Those still thinking there will be people still living in a flesh body after Jesus returns haven't studied all their Bible.

According to Zechariah 14, and 1 Thessalonians 4, the day when Lord Jesus returns, He will gather His Church from both the resurrected dead saints He brings with Him from Heaven, and His saints still alive on earth that are changed, and they all go to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem ON THE EARTH! At that time also, the veil hiding the heavenly dimension will be removed, and every soul will have literal awareness of the heavenly, even while upon the earth. It will like the state of angels that visited this earth.

Then Jesus will reign with His elect, ON THIS EARTH, and over the unsaved nations. The new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to this earth, and will include a Millennial temple meant only for the "thousand years" period, which is described in Ezekiel 40 thru 47.
The separation of the faithful Christians from unfaithful workers of the flesh, occurs at His return and resurrection of the saints to meet Him in the air.

The judgment of natural sheep and goats is after the destruction of the armies, and the King's first act as judge of all the earth.

The unfaithful believes will be with the goats, that smite and abuse, rather than are neighborly and peaceful minded.
 

Truth7t7

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The King's rule on earth will begin only with naturally good sheep. The armies will be slain immediately, and then the wicked not gathered with the armies, will be judged and slain.

There will be peace on earth, and the King and His reigning saints will ensue it over all nations.
Sounds like a sequel to (The Lord of The Rings) Sci-Fi movies

"Armies Defeated, The Ring Rules"

Big Smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord
 

robert derrick

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Where is all this in the text I presented? Nowhere!
Of course not. It's Scripture, not your text.

I only care about Scripture, not your text, unless you give the proper sense of what is written.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

God is still going to keep His promise to Abraham, and give him all the land he walked upon this earth. Unburnt.

Hello! He is reigning now over creation and His new creation.

There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.
He has all power to reign over all, but He does not yet reign over all: He is not reigning over the souls nor the bodily lives of them that disobey Him.

There is nothing that is not under His feet.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

All things are subject to Him power, but He is not yet ruling over all men on earth personally, as when He is King and Lord, ruling and judging over all the earth.

We don't see that, yet.
This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.
Of course He has come in the flesh, and He also comes with resurrection power for them that receive Him.

We don't see that, yet.
He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.
The Father's throne in heaven is given Him to sit in, and also will be given to them that overcome the whole world, as He did.

David's throne is on earth, not the Father's throne of God and the Lamb.


Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high.
Lying about the words of others, is open submission to the persuasion of their arguments.

The devil now flees from every saint in Christ Jesus, who resist him.

The devil will be shut up in the pit, so that he can't tempt any on earth to rebel against the King, in newly His believed city of the saints.

Instead of seeing the mercy of the all-powerful Christ, that does not exercise that power over all on earth now, but will after His return to earth, you want to see Him do it now.

Humbleness and mercy is having all-power, and yet not using it, due to longsuffering.

You know not what spirit you are of:

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

You are zealot judge, that makes no difference between good and evil among natural men and women on earth.

Question:

Are you still doing the unrighteous works of the flesh as the unbelieving sinners, or doing righteousness at all times as the saints in Christ Jesus?
 

robert derrick

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Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Paul is showing how the Lord Jesus has all power, but is not yet ruling over all on earth, yet.

The saints see Him as He is in heavenly places now on the throne of God, but all men will also see Him as he is on earth and the throne of David.
 

WPM

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Of course He has come in the flesh, and He also comes with resurrection power for them that receive Him.

We don't see that, yet.

The Father's throne in heaven is given Him to sit in, and also will be given to them that overcome the whole world, as He did.

David's throne is on earth, not the Father's throne of God and the Lamb.

Where in the NT does it say that David's throne is on earth? Nowhere! You have a habit of always repeating what you have been taught rather than quoting what Scripture says. The ancient prediction speak about Messianic authority over true Israel. You make the same hyper-literal mistakes that the Pharisees did. You have a wrong concept of the kingship of Christ and a wrong concept of the kingdom of God. You do not comprehend the current heavenly rule over His enemies. Your theology prevents you doing that.

Listen to Peter preaching on Psalm 110:1, when speaking about David and his throne, says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:25-36).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

Christ taking David’s throne does not refer to Him sitting on some long-preserved literal physical in the Middle East (as non-believing Jews and Premils apply this to in the future), but rather Him assuming heavenly authority over the people of God and fulfilling the Messianic prophecies as Israel’s true king. As we see in the New Testament, the people of God or true Israel does not relate exclusively to a physical race but to spiritual grace on God’s elect. Peter is showing that Christ now reigns over His people in fulfilment of the Old Testament predictions.

Peter ties up his whole argument in Acts 2:36 by saying: “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus said in Revelation 22:16, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

This confession from Christ and this appellation describes both His humanity and His deity in the statement “root and the offspring of David.” In this reading, the Lord reveals a great mystery but yet also a great truth, how He is both before and after king David. (1) He is after David in the sense that He is of his natural “offspring” according to the flesh. However, equally, He is likewise before Him in that He is the spiritual “root of David” (Revelation 5:5, 22:16).

Christ existed before the incarnation. He was the eternal Son of God, and therefore before David. Jesus testified in John 6:62, “ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.” The Lord testified in John 8:58, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus declared, in His great intercessory petition to His Father, in John 17:5, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Through these we understand the great mystery of the two aspects of Christ’s nature – His humanity and His deity.

We see Christ exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, when He asked, “What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Here He employs the Old Testament passage in Psalm 110:1 to impress His point. In His last question, Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity) – a truth that evidently perplexed the religious Pharisees. The religious Pharisees had absolutely no grasp of that great truth. They had no comprehension that He was both before and after David. The answer to the enquiry was that He was before David (being the root of David) in His divine office as the eternal Son of God; therefore, David called Him Lord. Nevertheless, He was also his offspring in a natural sense, through the incarnation at Bethlehem, and was therefore a son of David by way of lineage.

He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees. As man, He has assumed the throne of David, as God He has assumed the Father's throne. This is speaking about authority. He has totally fulfilled every demand as man and God and He therefore reigns on high upon the throne of David and His Father's throne.

It is clear from Matthew 22:42-46 that Christ applies this text to Himself thus rightly claiming the dualistic divine offices of king and of priest for Himself. It was still prior to His atoning death and glorious ascent to the throne, but He explicitly draws their eyes towards His person. In doing so, He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David, He was showing them His humanity, as the Son of God He was revealing His Deity. This discourse also revealed Christ’s eternal Sonship. Notwithstanding, such teaching confused the religious Pharisees.

A passage often overlooked on this subject is Romans 1:3-4, which declares, “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared (or exhibited) to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.”

Here we see the duality to the nature of Christ. He was the son of David, but also the Son of God. These two titles are knitted together in the one person. Once again, they see their apex in the resurrection of the Saviour. It does matter how partial one is in their Dispensationalism these passages are irrefutable. There can be no debate from these that Christ has already assumed David’s throne.
 
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robert derrick

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Hello! The Scriptures are very clear. You cannot fight with what it is saying. People are either saved or lost. They are either forgiven or unforgiven. They are either a child of God or a child of the devil. This is basic 101 Christianity. Your Premil beliefs are causing you to change Scripture to let your theology fit. This is not wise!

There is one Gospel, one hope, one redeemer, one salvation, one redemptive act that delivers man from eternal doom, one people of God and Dispensationalism is wrong. Man, from the beginning, is either found "in Adam" (through natural birth) and experiences eternal damnation or is found "in Christ " (through spiritual birth) and experiences eternal life.
Address the point and Scripture I given, then try again.
 

Davy

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The separation of the faithful Christians from unfaithful workers of the flesh, occurs at His return and resurrection of the saints to meet Him in the air.

The judgment of natural sheep and goats is after the destruction of the armies, and the King's first act as judge of all the earth.

The unfaithful believes will be with the goats, that smite and abuse, rather than are neighborly and peaceful minded.
The 'separation' of Christ's sheep from the goats is a 'type'... of judgment, but not The Judgment (of Rev.20:11-13).

The separation of Christ's faithful Church and the wicked and deceived, is all that is. This is why Rev.20:9 reveals the existence of the "camp of the saints" upon earth for the "thousand years". The UNSAVED nations will dwell outside that 'camp' all throughout the "thousand years". If you had studied the Old Testament prophets you would have known about this before you got to the Book of Revelation.

Thus the Matthew 25 separation is merely a type 'summary' description, with OTHER BIBLE BOOKS giving more detail. And with a 'summary' you don't have to give every little detail.