The New Covenant

[Philip James]

Hello @Philip James,

Thank you for responding. I asked you for Scriptural confirmation of what you had said in your response to me in reply#15 (quote)

​

* The verses you have given which you believe confirm that the Lord has wed His people Israel are:- John 3:29 and Ephesians 5:32-33. However, with respect to you, neither of these Scriptures tell me that the Lord has wed His people 'Israel'. In fact, Israel as a nation is at present in a Lo-ammi condition ('Not My People') so is not at present united to the Lord, being in a state of unbelief.

Hello charity,
It seems like you are indentifying Israel only with those who rejected Jesus. But what does Paul say on the matter...

Rom 9:8

This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

Rom 11: 1-5

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."


But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."


So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

It is this remnant who accept Jesus, that enter into the new covenant with Him. And it is these Israelites, who welcome the gentiles into that union.

* Also the reference from Ephesians uses the figure of marriage to describe the union between Christ and His Church, which is one of Oneness. I can't therefore accept these references as proof texts of what you are saying.

Indeed, we are untied to Christ, as a bride is united with her Husband. This is clearly what Paul is pointing out.. and yes, the bride and Her Groom are One!


Now John 3:29 identifies John as the best man and Jesus as the bridegroom, so there IS a wedding going on... who is the bride?

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."

Here again we see that a wedding is going on.. who is the bride?

* Re. the cup of the last supper: 'Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.' (Luke 22:20) This was said by the Lord to His disciples at the keeping of the Passover Feast. They were men of Israel, for whom this feast was obligatory. As men of Israel they would understand what the Lord was referring to, for the prophets had spoken concerning the New Covenant which God would make with His People Israel (Jeremiah 31:31), for which the Lord would be the Mediator (Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:15 & Hebrews 12:24).

As you point out here it is indeed 'men of Israel' to whom Jesus says 'this cup is the new covenant..'

And that same cup, that One loaf that was broken, continues to be faithfully shared and passed on from generation to generation...

And Peter makes it clear that the new covenant foretold by the prophets has been entered into here:

Acts 2:15-18

These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning.


No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:


'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.


Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.

Peace be with you!

 

[charity]

The New Testament (the New Covenant, since diatheke can be translated either way) by itself refutes your contention. But Paul takes it a step further and clearly shows that the Church (the Body of Christ) is now under the New Covenant.

2 CORINTHIANS 3

THE NEW COVENANT: NOT IN TABLETS OF STONE
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OUR SUFFICIENCY IS OF GOD
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

APOSTLES ARE MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament [Covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

THE OLD COVENANT: WAS ENGRAVED IN STONES
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

THE NEW COVENANT: A MINISTRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
8 How shall not the ministration of the [Holy] Spirit be rather [more] glorious?

THE NEW COVENANT: A MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

THE NEW COVENANT: FAR MORE GLORIOUS THAN THE OLD
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

THE NEW COVENANT: WILL REMAIN, THE OLD COVENANT WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

THE NEW COVENANT: GIVES GREAT HOPE TO THE BELIEVER
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

THE OLD COVENANT: HAS BEEN ABOLISHED
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

THE OLD COVENANT: NOW PRODUCES SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament [Covenant]; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

THE VEIL OF THE OLD COVENANT IS TAKEN AWAY THROUGH CHRIST
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

THE NEW COVENANT: ESTABLISHED BY THE INDWELLING SPIRIT TRANSFORMS THE BELIEVER
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Hello @Enoch111

It is obvious from your application of these verses, that our understanding as to what comprises the church which is His Body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all is not the same as my own.

This letter was written by Paul in the years prior to the revelation of the mystery by God to Paul: in which instruction was given regarding the church of the mystery and it's administration, following the departure of Israel into blindness at the end of the approximately forty-year period covered by the Acts of the Apostles.

No longer would gentiles be able to be grafted into Israel's Olive Tree, and no longer would Israel have a prior position. Salvation had been sent to the gentiles. The epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon give the details of the administration of the church which is Christ's Body. Now believers were on an equal footing regardless of race, united in Christ Jesus their Lord, quite apart from Israel. The New Covenant and Abrahamic blessings are now in abeyance along with Israel as a nation, until that day known of God, when Israel will be restored, the times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord, and Christ return.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hi charity. One thought that comes to mind concerns the need in both Old and New Covenants for blood to be shed. You can stick to your premise that Gentiles in the Body of Christ are not included in the New Covenant if you want, but sadly you will have to remove Ephesians 2:11-22 from your Bible... (see below)

Lev 17:11
(11) For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

Mat 26:27-28
(27) Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Col 1:20-23
(20) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
(21) And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
(22) in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
(23) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Eph 2:11-22
(11) Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
(12) that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
(13) But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
(14) For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
(15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
(16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
(17) And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
(18) For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
(19) Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
(20) having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
(21) in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
(22) in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Hello @Stumpmaster,

With respect, you have misread my words in the OP, for I did not say that, (quote):- ' ... Gentiles in the Body of Christ are not included in the New Covenant ...'. What I did say was, (quote):- 'I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.'

* The necessity for the shedding of blood is not disputed.

* What I have said does no despite to Ephesians 2:11-22. For in these verses it is said that believing Gentiles had been brought nigh unto God through Christ Jesus their Lord. As Gentiles their condition was as described in verse 13:-

'Wherefore remember,
that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ,
.. being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
.... and strangers from the covenants of promise,
...... having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Ephesians 2:11-12)

* Then came those glorious words, 'but now':-

'But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
.. For He is our peace,
.... who hath made both one,
...... and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
.. even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
.... for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
...... And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
........ having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ...'
(Ephesians 2:13-19)

* Now nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, having thereby access unto the Father by one Spirit, no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hello charity,
It seems like you are indentifying Israel only with those who rejected Jesus. But what does Paul say on the matter...

Rom 9:8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

Rom 11: 1-5
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."
But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."


So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
It is this remnant who accept Jesus, that enter into the new covenant with Him. And it is these Israelites, who welcome the gentiles into that union.

Indeed, we are untied to Christ, as a bride is united with her Husband. This is clearly what Paul is pointing out.. and yes, the bride and Her Groom are One!

Now John 3:29 identifies John as the best man and Jesus as the bridegroom, so there IS a wedding going on... who is the bride?

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."

Here again we see that a wedding is going on.. who is the bride?

As you point out here it is indeed 'men of Israel' to whom Jesus says 'this cup is the new covenant..'

And that same cup, that One loaf that was broken, continues to be faithfully shared and passed on from generation to generation...

And Peter makes it clear that the new covenant foretold by the prophets has been entered into here:

Acts 2:15-18
These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning.
No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:

'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.

Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.

Peace be with you!

Hello @Philip James,

With respect, you are wrong in thinking that I am (quote)' identifying Israel only with those who rejected Jesus'

The unbelieving among the nation of Israel, did reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, their King. The nation did go away into the blindness of unbelief, into a Loammi condition, and they are still, 'Not My People'. That condition is not a permanent condition, for the prophets of the Old Testament tell us that they will be restored, and forgiven, and will be once again, called by God, 'My People'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CharismaticLady]

you saying, with the words, 'it was', that the Church which is the Body of Christ is in a covenant relationship with God? Also, would you please explain why you are said, 'Gentiles are only grafted in'? What does this have to do with the New Covenant? For following the opening of the door of the Kingdom to Gentiles by Peter at God's instruction, they were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi charity,

Did you happen to read my post #33 where I showed that the New Covenant was the giving of the Holy Spirit? The Old Covenant was the giving of the Mosaic Law of the Ten Commandments. It also was given to Israel.

Hello @CharismaticLady,

What evidence do you have that, (quote) - 'the New Covenant was made with Israel on the Day of Pentecost, to all who accepted Jesus'

The Gentiles were enabled to enter the Kingdom and were grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel, thereby partaking of the blessings of Abraham, at least Ten years after Pentecost for one reason only, in order to make Israel jealous, and seek to emulate them. They were grafted into a New Covenant. Salvation was not sent to the Gentiles until Acts 28, after Israel went away finally into the blindness of unbelief.

No longer grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel, both Jew and Gentile believers are now One Body in Christ Jesus, in unity and equality, with Israel having no prior position as was the case during the Acts period.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi charity,

The inclusion of the Gentiles was in Acts 10 when the Holy fell on Cornelius, a Roman centurion, and his family. The gospel of the New Covenant, the "ministry of the Spirit," originally was only given to the Jews. That is not future, but past. And, by the way, in Acts 8, the Samaritans were included.

Please study the verses in #33 and if you still have any question ask me. I'm still not sure of what you don't believe about my version of when the the New Covenant was given, anymore than I can figure out the basis for @Harvest 1874's beliefs. Are you in agreement with him?

P.S. I love the color of your hair. I'm jealous! Mine is black and gray. Yuck! I'm going to try some color - blonde, and see what happens.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello @Philip James,

With respect, you are wrong in thinking that I am (quote)' identifying Israel only with those who rejected Jesus'

The unbelieving among the nation of Israel, did reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, their King. The nation did go away into the blindness of unbelief, into a Loammi condition, and they are still, 'Not My People'. That condition is not a permanent condition, for the prophets of the Old Testament tell us that they will be restored, and forgiven, and will be once again, called by God, 'My People'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree. Replacement theology is heresy.

 

[Enoch111]

This letter was written by Paul in the years prior to the revelation of the mystery by God to Paul...

This is just Hyper-Dispensationalist nonsense. The Lord's Supper was instituted on the evening before Christ was crucified, and that was long before Paul wrote anything. And here is what the Lord said:

For this is my blood of the New Testament (Covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:28)

The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died, therefore the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. The promised Holy Spirit was poured out upon the earth on the day of Pentecost (50 days later), and the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to Jewish believers (Acts 2). And the blood of Christ -- the blood of the New Covenant -- washed away their sins. That is also the day when the Church -- the Body of Christ -- came into existence. Please take note carefully: And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47) Gentiles were grafted into the Jewish Body of Christ shortly thereafter.

So people (including yourself) should understand that Hyper-Dispensationalism is not only nonsense but heresy.

 

[charity]

Hello charity,
It seems like you are indentifying Israel only with those who rejected Jesus. But what does Paul say on the matter...

Rom 9:8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

Rom 11: 1-5
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?


"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."
But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."

So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
It is this remnant who accept Jesus, that enter into the new covenant with Him. And it is these Israelites, who welcome the gentiles into that union.

Indeed, we are united to Christ, as a bride is united with her Husband. This is clearly what Paul is pointing out.. and yes, the bride and Her Groom are One!

Now John 3:29 identifies John as the best man and Jesus as the bridegroom, so there IS a wedding going on... who is the bride?

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast."

Here again we see that a wedding is going on.. who is the bride?

As you point out here it is indeed 'men of Israel' to whom Jesus says 'this cup is the new covenant..'
And that same cup, that One loaf that was broken, continues to be faithfully shared and passed on from generation to generation...

And Peter makes it clear that the new covenant foretold by the prophets has been entered into here:

Acts 2:15-18
These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning.
No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
'It will come to pass in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.

Peace be with you!

Hello @Philip James,

I had not addressed all your points in my last entry (#44)in relation to this post of yours (reply#41), so I have come back to do so. You speak of the believing remnant of Israel who obeyed the call of God through Peter in Acts 3:18-20, who embraced the truth concerning their Messiah, they did indeed receive a foretaste of millennial blessings, and it was indeed they who represent the healthy branches of the Olive Tree, into which came the believing gentiles who were grafted in, to promote growth and life in the ailing Olive Tree of Israel.

* You refer to Ephesians 5:22-33, which contain practical instruction regarding man and wife. In verse 30 the church is spoken of as members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. In verse 32, Paul talks of it as a great mystery. Likening it to the union between man and wife, wherein they become as one flesh. Yet the Church is called the Body of Christ, not the Bride.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hi @CharismaticLady (reply#45) & Enoch111 (reply#47),

I acknowledge your posts with thanks, and will come back to them (God willing). Must go now.
Thank you too @Nancy.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Nancy]

Hello @Philip James,

I had not addressed all your points in my last entry (#44)in relation to this post of yours (reply#41), so I have come back to do so. You speak of the believing remnant of Israel who obeyed the call of God through Peter in Acts 3:18-20, who embraced the truth concerning their Messiah, they did indeed receive a foretaste of millennial blessings, and it was indeed they who represent the healthy branches of the Olive Tree, into which came the believing gentiles who were grafted in, to promote growth and life in the ailing Olive Tree of Israel.

* You refer to Ephesians 5:22-33, which contain practical instruction regarding man and wife. In verse 30 the church is spoken of as members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. In verse 32, Paul talks of it as a great mystery. Likening it to the union between man and wife, wherein they become as one flesh. Yet the Church is called the Body of Christ, not the Bride.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

This stuff is so over my head yet, very interesting! Would you, @charity consider Christians to be the "Guests" at the wedding supper of the Bride?

 

[ScottA]

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

This is yet another issue where time messes with people's understanding--but it is both, both with Israel and with the church...for the two meet in the air.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hello @Stumpmaster,

With respect, you have misread my words in the OP, for I did not say that, (quote):- ' ... Gentiles in the Body of Christ are not included in the New Covenant ...'. What I did say was, (quote):- 'I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.'

* The necessity for the shedding of blood is not disputed.

* What I have said does no despite to Ephesians 2:11-22. For in these verses it is said that believing Gentiles had been brought nigh unto God through Christ Jesus their Lord. As Gentiles their condition was as described in verse 13:-

'Wherefore remember,
that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ,
.. being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
.... and strangers from the covenants of promise,
...... having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Ephesians 2:11-12)

* Then came those glorious words, 'but now':-

'But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
.. For He is our peace,
.... who hath made both one,
...... and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
.. even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
.... for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
...... And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
........ having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ...'
(Ephesians 2:13-19)

* Now nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, having thereby access unto the Father by one Spirit, no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi charity. Your continued assertions and their implications lead me to refer you to Galatians 3. If this doesn't make it clear to you that the body of Christ is in a coventant relationship with Him then I can only hope and pray for your enlightenment.
Gal 3:1-29
(1) O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
(2) This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
(3) Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
(4) Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
(5) Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(6) just as Abraham "BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
(7) Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
(8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
(9) So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."
(11) But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
(12) Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
(13) Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),
(14) that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(15) Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
(16) Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
(17) And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
(18) For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(19) What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
(20) Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
(22) But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
(23) But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
(24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[n2thelight]

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I feel Israel is and has always been the Church

 

[Steve Owen]

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

I am in the new covenant, praise God, and a browse through 2 Corinthians 3 should convince you that you are.
Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, is a minister of the new covenant. As for the N.C. being made with Israel, '..We are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh' (Philippians 3:3. Read the rest of the chapter).

 

[charity]

This is just Hyper-Dispensationalist nonsense. The Lord's Supper was instituted on the evening before Christ was crucified, and that was long before Paul wrote anything. And here is what the Lord said:

For this is my blood of the New Testament (Covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:28)

The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died, therefore the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. The promised Holy Spirit was poured out upon the earth on the day of Pentecost (50 days later), and the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to Jewish believers (Acts 2). And the blood of Christ -- the blood of the New Covenant -- washed away their sins. That is also the day when the Church -- the Body of Christ -- came into existence. Please take note carefully: And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47) Gentiles were grafted into the Jewish Body of Christ shortly thereafter.

So people (including yourself) should understand that Hyper-Dispensationalism is not only nonsense but heresy.

Hello there, @Enoch111,

This response was in reply to my entry (#42) in which I tried to explain how you and I differ in regard to our conception of the church which is His (Christ's) Body, which is 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all'.(Ephesians 1:22-23). You have called it 'hyper-dispensational nonsense', even heresy. I am sorry that you should feel that.

The epistles written following the revelation of God, given to Paul concerning this church, are, as I have said many times, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. This knowledge having been hid in God (Ephesians 3:9) from the beginning of the world. It's revelation made necessary following the rejection by Israel (finally) of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, both in the land of Israel, and in the dispersion.

The books you are quoting from were written before that revelation was given at the end of the period covered by the book of the Acts of the Apostles. In the writings of Paul written following that revelation no mention of a covenant is made. A new dispensation had begun, with a new administration, administered by Paul, as it's Steward.

In Christ Jesus
Christ

 

[charity]

I am in the new covenant, praise God, and a browse through 2 Corinthians 3 should convince you that you are.
Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, is a minister of the new covenant. As for the N.C. being made with Israel, '..We are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh' (Philippians 3:3. Read the rest of the chapter).

Hello @Steve Owen,

Thank you for responding.

As I explained in my previous post to Enoch111, 2 Corinthians was written prior to the revelation of God to Paul concerning the church which is the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23).

I acknowledge the change which took place in God's administration of the church following the final rejection by Israel of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, both in the land of Israel, and in the dispersion. The Olive tree was no longer there to be grafted into, the new covenant with it's blessings in abeyance, until a future day. So God made known the provision He had made, for this eventuality, and kept secret since the world began, that is the subject of Paul's later epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon).

With love in Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[charity]

Hi charity,

Did you happen to read my post #33 where I showed that the New Covenant was the giving of the Holy Spirit? The Old Covenant was the giving of the Mosaic Law of the Ten Commandments. It also was given to Israel.

The inclusion of the Gentiles was in Acts 10 when the Holy fell on Cornelius, a Roman centurion, and his family. The gospel of the New Covenant, the "ministry of the Spirit," originally was only given to the Jews. That is not future, but past. And, by the way, in Acts 8, the Samaritans were included.

Please study the verses in #33 and if you still have any question ask me. I'm still not sure of what you don't believe about my version of when the the New Covenant was given, anymore than I can figure out the basis for @Harvest 1874's beliefs. Are you in agreement with him?

P.S. I love the color of your hair. I'm jealous! Mine is black and gray. Yuck! I'm going to try some color - blonde, and see what happens.

Hi @CharismaticLady,

Black and grey hair is great! Don't knock it!

You and I, though very often taking part in the same threads, have not actually had a lot to say to each other. We obviously do not see eye to eye concerning the New Covenant, but that is probably because you appear not to have acknowledged the change of administration which took place following the final rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, both in the land of Israel and among the elders of the Jews in the dispersion, as their Messiah and King. That rejection put the New Covenant with it's blessings into abeyance, as Israel as a nation went away finally into the blindness of unbelief.

The verses you have quoted in your entry (reply#33), were all written prior to this event, and before the revelation of God to Paul, concerning the church which is His (Christ's) Body, which is the fullness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23). This knowledge, as I have said in previous entries, had been hid in God since before the world began, and was not the subject of either Old Testament prophecy, or of the gospels, Acts, or the books written prior to it's revelation. Only in Paul's later epistles (Ephesians Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon).

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

AD59 - Paul mobbed and arrested at the temple
AD64 - Paul released
AD67 - Paul and Peter martyred
AD70 - Titus destroys Jerusalem

 

[charity]

I feel Israel is and has always been the Church

Hi there, @n2thelight,

Do you? It really depends on what you define as the 'Church'. In the OP, I referred specifically to 'the church which is His Body the fullness of Him that filleth all in all' (Ephesians 1:22-23). That company came into being following the departure of Israel into the blindness of unbelief, following their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ finally, both in the land and in the dispersion, at Acts 28. In this company there is equality and unity between believers whether Jew or Gentile, it is indeed, 'One Body', for Israel as a nation has no prior place during this dispensation. Israel will be restored one day, and fulfil it's purpose in the will of God, but at present it is in a Lo-ammi condition, ('Not My People').

Knowledge of the church which is the Body of Christ, is the exclusive subject of the epistles written by Paul when 'The Prisoner of the Lord' at the end of the Acts period, namely Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. Having it's basis in the central portion of the book of Romans, (5:12-8:39). Prior to it's revelation to Paul, it was 'hid in God' (Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:26), so not the subject of either the Old Testament prophets, the gospels, Acts, or the early epistles.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi @CharismaticLady,

Black and grey hair is great! Don't knock it!

You and I, though very often taking part in the same threads, have not actually had a lot to say to each other. We obviously do not see eye to eye concerning the New Covenant, but that is probably because you appear not to have acknowledged the change of administration which took place following the final rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, both in the land of Israel and among the elders of the Jews in the dispersion, as their Messiah and King. That rejection put the New Covenant with it's blessings into abeyance, as Israel as a nation went away finally into the blindness of unbelief.

The verses you have quoted in your entry (reply#33), were all written prior to this event, and before the revelation of God to Paul, concerning the church which is His (Christ's) Body, which is the fullness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23). This knowledge, as I have said in previous entries, had been hid in God since before the world began, and was not the subject of either Old Testament prophecy, or of the gospels, Acts, or the books written prior to it's revelation. Only in Paul's later epistles (Ephesians Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon).

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

AD59 - Paul mobbed and arrested at the temple
AD64 - Paul released
AD67 - Paul and Peter martyred
AD70 - Titus destroys Jerusalem

Yes, we do disagree. 3000 Jews were saved on the first day of Pentecost, and more after that.

I want to ask you something that has been bothering me about Peter and Paul a long time. Where were Peter and Paul martyred? Do you know anything about Barnabas?

 

[charity]

Yes, we do disagree. 3000 Jews were saved on the first day of Pentecost, and more after that.

I wanted to ask you something that has been bothering me about Peter and Paul a long time. Where were Peter and Paul martyred?

Hi @CharismaticLady

I don't understand why you have mentioned the Jews who were saved at Pentecost, because that is not under dispute: for they form part of the believing remnant of Israel.

I have read that Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome, Paul was martyred by beheading for he was a Roman citizen, so he could not be crucified as Peter is traditionally said to have been. He is said to have been crucified upside down. Both methods were horrible ways to die, weren't they? but at least Paul's death would have been quicker.

With love in Christ Jesus
our Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris