The Ones Who Are Left…

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,542
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I’d have to…perhaps somewhat reluctantly :)p) agree that there biblical validity for a Millennial period from some of these OT passages, just in how they speak of it. Where I struggle with it is how we then come to the NT and find nothing similar; we have this age, and the age to come; this age being now, with sin and death and rebellion…the age to come being eternity with none of those things.
When it all really comes down to it: I’m not in love with my ‘doctrine’ enough to be disappointed if I’m wrong. If Jesus returns and sets up a Millennial Kingdom, I suspect I’ll deal very well!

Yeah, there's Old Testament prophecy about Christ's future Millennial reign over the nations, the end of Zechariah 14 being one of the best proofs.

We have to stay with what's written in God's Holy Writ, even when we don't yet understand some things. Otherwise, why should our Heavenly Father show us anything in His Word if we won't take it as written? But when we do listen to Him in His Word, and agree with what is written, even though at that time we may not totally understand, that's when He begins to show us more that will eventually explain it as we stay in His Word in study.

In 2 Peter 3, he revealed there are 3 world earth ages, the last one being God's eternity of the new heavens and a new earth. That is not the time yet when Jesus returns to reign over the unsaved for a thousand years. Christ's future Millennial reign will actually be part of this present world earth age, a 2nd earth age. If you understand about the idea of God's sabbath day, then that is pretty much what Christ's 1,000 years future reign is going to represent, a seventh day rest, the idea of a 'day' meaning a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). That is why the wicked will still exist after Christ's return, and even at His return the "resurrection of damnation" will be there too under His direct reign (see Revelation 3:9 where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at their feet. Only after Christ's future return will that happen).

What will be the difference? Some... earth changes are going to begin at His return. One of the main changes will be the change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump and the resurrection. The sudden destruction on the "day of the Lord" will be about God's consuming fire burning man's works of this world off the surface of the earth, a destruction similar to the flood of Noah's day, except by fire instead. With Noah's flood, God did not completely destroy the earth, but only cleansed its surface of wickedness. The idea is the end of this present 'world' time, but not the end of the earth literally. Apostle Paul shows this at the end of Hebrews 12.

What that is going to do is usher us into the next world, not a new heaven and new earth yet, but to a new manifesting upon this earth. We all will be in bodies of incorruption, even for the wicked. The difference will be, those without Christ will still be subject to perishing at the "second death". The first death is death of our flesh body, the second death is the destruction of the unbeliever's spirit body with soul into the future "lake of fire", along with Satan, the wicked, death, and the abode of hell. None of that is going to be of the time of the new heavens and a new earth of God's Eternity. The wicked unsaved will not see God's Eternity, because the smoke of their burning is all they will know. Thus the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20 is the actual dividing point between this 2nd world earth age, and God's Eternity.

Moreover, when God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth, and we all are changed, like Isaiah 25 points to all nations, this time in flesh bodies is going to be over. The heavenly dimension that is invisible behind a veil today is going to be uncovered for all to see. This is probably the most difficult thing written in God's Word for many to understand, because of the deceptions the flesh lusts and desires can cause. But make no mistake, the change to a "spiritual body" type is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 for the world to come.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yeah, there's Old Testament prophecy about Christ's future Millennial reign over the nations, the end of Zechariah 14 being one of the best proofs.

We have to stay with what's written in God's Holy Writ, even when we don't yet understand some things. Otherwise, why should our Heavenly Father show us anything in His Word if we won't take it as written? But when we do listen to Him in His Word, and agree with what is written, even though at that time we may not totally understand, that's when He begins to show us more that will eventually explain it as we stay in His Word in study.

In 2 Peter 3, he revealed there are 3 world earth ages, the last one being God's eternity of the new heavens and a new earth. That is not the time yet when Jesus returns to reign over the unsaved for a thousand years. Christ's future Millennial reign will actually be part of this present world earth age, a 2nd earth age. If you understand about the idea of God's sabbath day, then that is pretty much what Christ's 1,000 years future reign is going to represent, a seventh day rest, the idea of a 'day' meaning a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). That is why the wicked will still exist after Christ's return, and even at His return the "resurrection of damnation" will be there too under His direct reign (see Revelation 3:9 where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at their feet. Only after Christ's future return will that happen).

What will be the difference? Some... earth changes are going to begin at His return. One of the main changes will be the change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump and the resurrection. The sudden destruction on the "day of the Lord" will be about God's consuming fire burning man's works of this world off the surface of the earth, a destruction similar to the flood of Noah's day, except by fire instead. With Noah's flood, God did not completely destroy the earth, but only cleansed its surface of wickedness. The idea is the end of this present 'world' time, but not the end of the earth literally. Apostle Paul shows this at the end of Hebrews 12.

What that is going to do is usher us into the next world, not a new heaven and new earth yet, but to a new manifesting upon this earth. We all will be in bodies of incorruption, even for the wicked. The difference will be, those without Christ will still be subject to perishing at the "second death". The first death is death of our flesh body, the second death is the destruction of the unbeliever's spirit body with soul into the future "lake of fire", along with Satan, the wicked, death, and the abode of hell. None of that is going to be of the time of the new heavens and a new earth of God's Eternity. The wicked unsaved will not see God's Eternity, because the smoke of their burning is all they will know. Thus the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20 is the actual dividing point between this 2nd world earth age, and God's Eternity.

Moreover, when God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth, and we all are changed, like Isaiah 25 points to all nations, this time in flesh bodies is going to be over. The heavenly dimension that is invisible behind a veil today is going to be uncovered for all to see. This is probably the most difficult thing written in God's Word for many to understand, because of the deceptions the flesh lusts and desires can cause. But make no mistake, the change to a "spiritual body" type is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 for the world to come.

I agree that OT passages leave a legitimate ? Regarding the Millennial period, but I must disagree with some of the things you see in the NT pointing to this period.

2 Peter 3 seems clear, I would think, about what happens when Christ returns:


2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.



What ‘3’ ages is being spoken of here? Unless its the age before the destruction by water that is referred to..but that is an age past, and thus cannot be speaking of a coming Millennium. Which means any reference to a future age must be the eternal one…which indeed seem verified as references to ‘the age to come’ always speak in ‘eternal’ language.


But, let’s return to 2 Peter 3, and what it reveals about Christ’s return and what HAPPENS with it. We see in the verses above that with the ‘day of judgement’ comes the ‘destruction of the ungodly’. That day, Peter tells us, the ‘day of the Lord’, will ‘come like a thief’ and the ‘heavens will pass away, be burned up and dissolved’.
So…the ungodly are judged and the heavens melt. We can also assume from these verses that when the ‘heavens’ burn, so too will the earth; the passage speaks of the earth, as well as the heavens being ‘kept for fire’…plus, there is the rather obvious fact that if the cosmos explodes/implodes/melts…so too would this globe.
What does this tell us? Well…for the second, to keep digging.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed
.

We see again that WHEN Christ comes ‘on that day’, unbelievers will be judged and suffer ‘eternal destruction’.
What about believers? What happens to them WHEN Christ returns?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.


John 11:24
Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.



OKay…so, what do we have? We have Christ returning on a day of judgement for the unbelievers…a day where the cosmos will burn. We also have him returning to resurrect his ‘children’…alive and dead. The dead will be ‘caught up’ first, those alive not far behind…all receiving their resurrection bodies. Regardless whether you believe there to be a Pre-trib Rapture tucked into some of these passages, the facts within them speak loudly; AT his coming, all those who are his, will receive resurrection bodies.
When you consider that there are passages that link the judgement of wicked AND the righteous (both living and dead) at the ‘coming’ of Jesus (Matt 25: 31-46; John 5:28-29)…then I think we come away from all these passages with at least one big question….


If people…any people…are going into the Millennial period in ‘natural’ bodies…how do they get past the return of Jesus IN said natural bodies? Every passage that speaks of Christ’s return seems to overwhelmingly speak of the righteous being glorified, and the unrighteous being judged. I cannot see how you can squeeze or insert natural bodies, sin or death past 1 Cor 15…and it seems to me that for a Millennial period to occur, you’d need all 3.

So, yes, I absolutely agree we need to stay in God’s holy word, even when things don’t make sense…but I suppose I’m tending to err on the side of viewing the OT through the lens of NT fulfilment in Christ. We KNOW so much in the OT was pointing to Christ, we KNOW that he and the Apostles interpreted some wild OT prophecies as fulfilled in Christ, or in Pentecost…even when it makes not much sense to our modern eyes. So…while I understand you disagree with me, do understand I haven’t landed where I am with a cavalier attitude to the importance to scripture.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,254
938
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I cannot see how you can squeeze or insert natural bodies, sin or death past 1 Cor 15…
That is because 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 does not happen until the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by how it is then, that Death is no more. Revelation 21:1-4

People WILL go into the Millennium with mortal bodies. That is why their death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment.
But life will be extended, as Isaiah 65:20 says.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That is because 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 does not happen until the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by how it is then, that Death is no more. Revelation 21:1-4

People WILL go into the Millennium with mortal bodies. That is why their death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment.
But life will be extended, as Isaiah 65:20 says.

Wait….so…if 1 Cor 15 is AFTER the Millennium, then Christ has 3 comings? 4, if we believe in a pre-trib Rapture (which I don’t).

With all due respect, how many differences can a person ‘see’ in what is only really described as a single return? There is nothing in any of these passages that give leave to inject a pre-trib rapture coming…end trib/beginning Mill coming, then end Mill coming. Besides…how can Christ “come”, if he’s been present ruling and reigning for the entire Millennium from the throne in Jerusalem?
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,254
938
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Besides…how can Christ “come”, if he’s been present ruling and reigning for the entire Millennium from the throne in Jerusalem?
I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus will Return once, at the 7th Bowl, Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-19, 19:11-21

But before then, He will send His wrath - at the Sixth Seal, Amos 1; Psalms 11:4-6, and later at the 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls.
After Jesus Returns, He will reign on earth, with all His faithful people. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10

After the Millennium, He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven'.
Jesus will Return once, at the 7th Bowl, Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-19, 19:11-21

But before then, He will send His wrath - at the Sixth Seal, Amos 1; Psalms 11:4-6, and later at the 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls.
After Jesus Returns, He will reign on earth, with all His faithful people. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:9-10

After the Millennium, He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24
I don’t believe in a Rapture to heaven either. But I do believe the bible speaks of the harpazo event, where we will “meet the Lord in the air”.
However, just as most Dispensationalists assume within the text that this means we “keep going up” to heaven, when it just doesn’t say it, so too I’m afraid you’ve made some assumptions with 1 Cor 15.
1 Cor 15 clearly begins by Christ’s ‘coming’. How then do you insert 1000 years between that event and the ‘handing of the Kingdom over to the Father’ just a verse later with no mention of said 1000 years time lapse?

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

I don’t see it, do you see it?
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,254
938
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

I don’t see it, do you see it?
Yes, I do believe there will be a thousand year gap between Jesus Return and when He will give the Kingdom back to the Father. Proved by the thousand years mentioned six times in Revelation 20.
Also alluded to in Hosea 6:2 and by Jesus in Luke 13:32, but mainly by the fact of there having been 2 exact 2000 year periods and the third is nearly finished; when Jesus Returns, a total of 6000 years.
Then comes the Sabbath period of a thousand years, of the benign rule of King Jesus. Total; 7000 years of God's decreed time for mankind.

The 'harparzo' event of 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation thru our atmosphere to where Jesus will Return to, Jerusalem, as Zechariah 14:3 confirms.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yes, I do believe there will be a thousand year gap between Jesus Return and when He will give the Kingdom back to the Father. Proved by the thousand years mentioned six times in Revelation 20.
Also alluded to in Hosea 6:2 and by Jesus in Luke 13:32, but mainly by the fact of there having been 2 exact 2000 year periods and the third is nearly finished; when Jesus Returns, a total of 6000 years.
Then comes the Sabbath period of a thousand years, of the benign rule of King Jesus. Total; 7000 years of God's decreed time for mankind.

The 'harparzo' event of 1 Thess 4:17, is just a transportation thru our atmosphere to where Jesus will Return to, Jerusalem, as Zechariah 14:3 confirms.

People can…and do…believe all sorts of things. But…that is not what I asked. I asked if you could see what it was you were claiming IN the text in question.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

Where is the gap between ‘then at his coming’ and ‘then comes the end’?
I suppose its easy to eisegete what you want into any given text if you already believe something hard enough, but the simple fact is, the text does not say it. The text does not even suggest it. Which leads me to wonder at the legitimacy of the idea.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,592
590
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
People can…and do…believe all sorts of things. But…that is not what I asked. I asked if you could see what it was you were claiming IN the text in question.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

Where is the gap between ‘then at his coming’ and ‘then comes the end’?
I suppose its easy to eisegete what you want into any given text if you already believe something hard enough, but the simple fact is, the text does not say it. The text does not even suggest it. Which leads me to wonder at the legitimacy of the idea.
Where would you place the last 1991 years in the text? Or has any time passed since the order Paul mentioned? Are we still waiting for Christ the firstfruits to happen?
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Where would you place the last 1991 years in the text? Or has any time passed since the order Paul mentioned? Are we still waiting for Christ the firstfruits to happen?

I don’t see any conflict in the text, but it sitting rather neatly.

“Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”


This tells us that Christ was the first to receive a resurrection body…which we know happened at his…unsurprisingly…resurrection and ascension to the Father. It then tells us WHEN the rest of us will receive our own resurrection bodies. “At his coming”. If there has been nearly 2000 years between these 2 events, then we must accordingly understand that they are not to be simultaneous.
When reading further:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

We could allow that likewise there might be time between what happens at the resurrection of the faithful AT his coming and the ‘then comes the end’. But from the text alone we do not see it. From a future vantage point looking back we might have that luxury, as we do with the first part. But even as the NT books were being written, and we can see that there is expectation in the authors that Christ ‘could’ return soon…there is no dating his return. Thus we must…as we do now, place the resurrection of the just as AFTER…considerably after…Christ received the first fruits of what will be.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,233
113
North America
I don’t believe in a Rapture to heaven either. But I do believe the bible speaks of the harpazo event, where we will “meet the Lord in the air”.
However, just as most Dispensationalists assume within the text that this means we “keep going up” to heaven, when it just doesn’t say it, so too I’m afraid you’ve made some assumptions with 1 Cor 15.
1 Cor 15 clearly begins by Christ’s ‘coming’. How then do you insert 1000 years between that event and the ‘handing of the Kingdom over to the Father’ just a verse later with no mention of said 1000 years time lapse?

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

I don’t see it, do you see it?
Hi @Naomi25 I do love how Paul links the Lord's Supper to the thought of the Lord's Coming for His people: 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).... :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Naomi25

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,542
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree that OT passages leave a legitimate ? Regarding the Millennial period, but I must disagree with some of the things you see in the NT pointing to this period.

2 Peter 3 seems clear, I would think, about what happens when Christ returns:


2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


Per Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment and destruction into the "lake of fire" will happen only after... Christ's "thousand years" reign. Did you miss reading this in Revelation 20?


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
What ‘3’ ages is being spoken of here? Unless its the age before the destruction by water that is referred to..but that is an age past, and thus cannot be speaking of a coming Millennium. Which means any reference to a future age must be the eternal one…which indeed seem verified as references to ‘the age to come’ always speak in ‘eternal’ language.

That 2 Peter 3:10 verse is about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. That is NOT the Great White Throne judgment. It is simply the ending of this present world in the flesh. It's important to understand the Scripture as written, and not add men's doctrines into it which is what Amillennialists do. They refuse to believe the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Christ over the wicked is literal. But it is a literal period. If that "thousand years" were just an analogy, then why isn't there an analogy given with it in Revelation 20?

I'm not going to argue with one who wants to follow men's leaven doctrine of Amillennialism. If that's what you want to follow, then goto. But you won't be aligned with what God's Holy Writ declares.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,542
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is because 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 does not happen until the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by how it is then, that Death is no more. Revelation 21:1-4

People WILL go into the Millennium with mortal bodies. That is why their death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment.
But life will be extended, as Isaiah 65:20 says.

You haven't understood Isaiah 25 where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory. The change on the last trump per 1 Corinthians 15 is for all nations alive on earth at the day of Christ's future return.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,733
13,070
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Ones Who Are Left…
OP ^

Pretty sure the Democrats regularly claim they are LEFT.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,733
13,070
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Ones Who Are Left…
OP^

The saved (IN Christ) are risen up off the face of the earth.
The ones who are left on earth are the unsaved.
Huge revival.....——>
ON earth, saved and unsaved are making choices.
Many choose to reject Christ, ie. Reject Salvation.
The Tribesmen of Israel are taught by Tribesmen, sent by God, (ie 2 witnesses, ie 144,444) and many Tribesmen become Saved, and are killed by rejectors.
An angel of God preaches the Gospel to the whole world remaining alive on earth.
Many Gentiles become Saved, killed by Rejectors.
Last portion of Tribulation...;
All Who have made their allegiance to Satan, never can be saved, become Killed, by the power of God.
***
 

Daniel Veler

Active Member
Apr 17, 2021
485
164
43
Gulf port
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
One of the dangers that come from seeing in part is that most will conclude and form an interpretation from it. Until you see the whole picture of an event you will only know in part. Doesn’t make you wrong but your understanding is only in part.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,592
590
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t see any conflict in the text, but it sitting rather neatly.

“Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”


This tells us that Christ was the first to receive a resurrection body…which we know happened at his…unsurprisingly…resurrection and ascension to the Father. It then tells us WHEN the rest of us will receive our own resurrection bodies. “At his coming”. If there has been nearly 2000 years between these 2 events, then we must accordingly understand that they are not to be simultaneous.
When reading further:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
.

We could allow that likewise there might be time between what happens at the resurrection of the faithful AT his coming and the ‘then comes the end’. But from the text alone we do not see it. From a future vantage point looking back we might have that luxury, as we do with the first part. But even as the NT books were being written, and we can see that there is expectation in the authors that Christ ‘could’ return soon…there is no dating his return. Thus we must…as we do now, place the resurrection of the just as AFTER…considerably after…Christ received the first fruits of what will be.
And we should also not conclude an immediate end either, but wait until it happens, just like we have waited 1991 years between the Resurrection and the Second Coming. We are still waiting, and even the 2000 years is not set in stone yet.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,733
13,070
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those left are continuously calling right, wrong.

Of course, they foot soldier for their father, whom they learned from and follow his tactics of declaring a lie is a truth and a truth is a lie...
Gaslighting, a hopeful intent to cause one to question the truth.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,542
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For those who don't know it by now, Taken is on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory which wrongly teaches that to be 'left behind' means you missed being raptured to Jesus prior to the tribulation.

But God's Word as written teaches that Jesus doesn't gather His Church until immediately after... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), AND.. at the end of Luke 17 when His disciples asked Him, 'Where' would the first one taken, would be taken to, Jesus said wheresoever the carcase is, that's where the eagles (fowls) will be gathered together. Lord Jesus showed by that, that a true believer on Jesus DOES NOT want to be the first one 'taken'.

Thus the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is actually an idea designed to deliver up deceived to the devil when he comes, because the devil himself is coming first to play Christ, but the deceived will believe it is our Lord Jesus.