The problem of bifurcating truth.

[Randy Kluth]

The problem of bifurcation.
In the early Church we had a dualism associated with Marcion, the heretic, who separated the OT God from the NT God. Today, I see the same tendencies in Dispensationalism, as well as in any extreme form of Grace teaching, where the concept of "law" is completely ignored or deemphasized.

It is also evidenent in Amillennialism, where Israel is rejected as an outmoded "physical" reality, to be replaced by the more "spiritual" reality of a Christian Church. Obviously, this is going to cause some controversy and even emotional protest. But if this kind of conversation is kept "in house," then I think we can focus on our agreements, rather than these disagreements?

So I'm not appealing for more argumentation, as much as for understanding our respective positions. And then, the focus is on what unifies us, despite our differences.

 

[marks]

The problem of bifurcation.
In the early Church we had a dualism associated with Marcion, the heretic, who separated the OT God from the NT God. Today, I see the same tendencies in Dispensationalism, as well as in any extreme form of Grace teaching, where the concept of "law" is completely ignored or deemphasized.

It is also evidenent in Amillennialism, where Israel is rejected as an outmoded "physical" reality, to be replaced by the more "spiritual" reality of a Christian Church. Obviously, this is going to cause some controversy and even emotional protest. But if this kind of conversation is kept "in house," then I think we can focus on our agreements, rather than these disagreements?

So I'm not appealing for more argumentation, as much as for understanding our respective positions. And then, the focus is on what unifies us, despite our differences.

To me, the question immediately becomes, to which Law do you refer? John wrote 2 commandments for the children of God, to trust Jesus, and love others. Paul taught about the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. There is of course the Covenant of Law from Sinai. Paul also mentions being under the "Law of Christ".

Ezekiel prophesied a time when Israel would be reborn, and would keep all the statutes and judgments. James told Paul that the Jerusalem Christians were very zealous to keep the Law, I'm thinking the Mosaic Covenant. James wrote to the churches only to obstain from blood and things strangled, foods offered to idols, and fornication.

I like to look at all these instances - am I leaving anything out? - and look at which are addressed to whom, as a start.

Much love!

 

[Gottservant]

The place of the Law grows, as men become more convicted of sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

To me, the question immediately becomes, to which Law do you refer? John wrote 2 commandments for the children of God, to trust Jesus, and love others. Paul taught about the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. There is of course the Covenant of Law from Sinai. Paul also mentions being under the "Law of Christ".

Ezekiel prophesied a time when Israel would be reborn, and would keep all the statutes and judgments. James told Paul that the Jerusalem Christians were very zealous to keep the Law, I'm thinking the Mosaic Covenant. James wrote to the churches only to obstain from blood and things strangled, foods offered to idols, and fornication.

I like to look at all these instances - am I leaving anything out? - and look at which are addressed to whom, as a start.

Much love!

1st Mark, I like you as a brother and person. So if you're a Dispensationalist I cannot state my view without stepping on your toes. I go to a Dispensationalist church, and nobody--I mean nobody, wants to even bring up the subject of biblical prophecy around me. And that includes every pastor we have ever had.

But I'm certainly not hostile to Dispensationalism. I just disagree with it, and reserve my right to state what I think the Bible teaches without getting into any hostile discussions about that. I don't believe you and I have been hostile about much on this forum, regardless of our position.

Where I strongly agree with Dispensationalism is on the fact that Israel will be physically, literally, and nationally restored--a complete nation (not necessarily every individual faithful to their Christianity). Israel will be, I think, a fully Christian nation in the future, after Christ returns.

That means all Israel is saved as a nation, but not necessarily all saved in the spiritual sense. Salvation of a nation, in the Bible, refers to a political salvation, and that salvation is always dependent on spiritual cooperation with God's laws. For Israel to be completely delivered from her enemies, the vast majority of the population of Israel simply *must* obey the Lord and enter into a lasting covenant with Him! It was that way under the Law, and it is still that way today. But it just won't happen until Christ comes, to separate the sheep from the goats.

The laws of God can be viewed generically or specifically to the Law of Moses. In the general sense, law as a concept is in the NT Gospel. As you indicated, Christ gave commandments to love God supremely and to love one another sincerely. That is law in its truest sense, without reference to its technical definition as the "Law of Moses."

Where I disagree with Dispensationalists is on the often sense that Israel will return to obeying the Law of Moses. There are Scriptures that appear to indicate this, although I don't think that's its literal sense.

I think forms of the Law had to be used in a time when the Law was still in play. Otherwise, the Prophets would've appeared to have been advocating for an end to the Law even while they were still under the Law!

So I don't think Sabbaths will return, or the temple will return, or the priesthood, or sacrifices, or dietary laws, etc. Not only is redemption finished but so are the laws that filled in temporarily until Christ died for our sins.

This is meant to be an explanation, but not an argument. I know there are differences. You can certainly share your views here! I have a lot of respect for you and for your posts, regardless.

 

[rwb]

The problem of bifurcation.
In the early Church we had a dualism associated with Marcion, the heretic, who separated the OT God from the NT God. Today, I see the same tendencies in Dispensationalism, as well as in any extreme form of Grace teaching, where the concept of "law" is completely ignored or deemphasized.

It is also evidenent in Amillennialism, where Israel is rejected as an outmoded "physical" reality, to be replaced by the more "spiritual" reality of a Christian Church. Obviously, this is going to cause some controversy and even emotional protest. But if this kind of conversation is kept "in house," then I think we can focus on our agreements, rather than these disagreements?

So I'm not appealing for more argumentation, as much as for understanding our respective positions. And then, the focus is on what unifies us, despite our differences.

Randy don't state what you think Amillennialism doctrine is. I know MANY Amillennialists, including myself, and not ONE of them believe or teach that the Christian Church rejected or even replaced the nation of Israel. Amillennialism in fact believes that faithful Israel together with faithful Gentiles are and have always been the Church. It's not a doctrine of replacing or separation as you assume, but is a doctrine of inclusion of all the faithful of the whole world no matter what their ethnic makeup. This is true of both Old Covenant faithful Israel as well as New Covenant faithful Israel. Who together are the Church in the wilderness, and not an ethnic Israel, but "Israel of God."

My advise to you is this, before assuming to argue for or against ANY doctrinal biblical position learn the position you desire to argue against well before speaking. Otherwise, as you've done here, you show yourself to err concerning doctrine you THINK you know, but in reality you DON'T KNOW very well at all.

 

[rwb]

That means all Israel is saved as a nation, but not necessarily all saved in the spiritual sense. Salvation of a nation, in the Bible, refers to a political salvation, and that salvation is always dependent on spiritual cooperation with God's laws. For Israel to be completely delivered from her enemies, the vast majority of the population of Israel simply *must* obey the Lord and enter into a lasting covenant with Him! It was that way under the Law, and it is still that way today. But it just won't happen until Christ comes, to separate the sheep from the goats.

When you say "all Israel is saved as a nation" are you saying that the nation of Israel, whether of faith or in unbelief, shall continue to exist as a physical nation upon the earth to the last trumpet sounding?

 

[marks]

1st Mark, I like you as a brother and person. So if you're a Dispensationalist I cannot state my view without stepping on your toes. I go to a Dispensationalist church, and nobody--I mean nobody, wants to even bring up the subject of biblical prophecy around me. And that includes every pastor we have ever had.

But I'm certainly not hostile to Dispensationalism. I just disagree with it, and reserve my right to state what I think the Bible teaches without getting into any hostile discussions about that. I don't believe you and I have been hostile about much on this forum, regardless of our position.

Where I strongly agree with Dispensationalism is on the fact that Israel will be physically, literally, and nationally restored--a complete nation (not necessarily every individual faithful to their Christianity). Israel will be, I think, a fully Christian nation in the future, after Christ returns.

That means all Israel is saved as a nation, but not necessarily all saved in the spiritual sense. Salvation of a nation, in the Bible, refers to a political salvation, and that salvation is always dependent on spiritual cooperation with God's laws. For Israel to be completely delivered from her enemies, the vast majority of the population of Israel simply *must* obey the Lord and enter into a lasting covenant with Him! It was that way under the Law, and it is still that way today. But it just won't happen until Christ comes, to separate the sheep from the goats.

The laws of God can be viewed generically or specifically to the Law of Moses. In the general sense, law as a concept is in the NT Gospel. As you indicated, Christ gave commandments to love God supremely and to love one another sincerely. That is law in its truest sense, without reference to its technical definition as the "Law of Moses."

Where I disagree with Dispensationalists is on the often sense that Israel will return to obeying the Law of Moses. There are Scriptures that appear to indicate this, although I don't think that's its literal sense.

I think forms of the Law had to be used in a time when the Law was still in play. Otherwise, the Prophets would've appeared to have been advocating for an end to the Law even while they were still under the Law!

So I don't think Sabbaths will return, or the temple will return, or the priesthood, or sacrifices, or dietary laws, etc. Not only is redemption finished but so are the laws that filled in temporarily until Christ died for our sins.

This is meant to be an explanation, but not an argument. I know there are differences. You can certainly share your views here! I have a lot of respect for you and for your posts, regardless.

No worries!

As you wrote, then, the key difference between us is that I'm taking these passages more literally then? Which would be usual for me, and I've never regretted it.

Personally, I think the most of us recognize dispensations in Scripture, only, there are some whacko dispies who give us a bad name, so not everyone wants to go by that label.

But yes, I think these passages which show Israel keeping the Sinai Covenant will be fulfilled also.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1st Mark, I like you as a brother and person. So if you're a Dispensationalist I cannot state my view without stepping on your toes. I go to a Dispensationalist church, and nobody--I mean nobody, wants to even bring up the subject of biblical prophecy around me. And that includes every pastor we have ever had.

BTW . . . I can talk this through with you til the cows come home, and I don't mind whether we agree or not on everything. At the end if it we will identify the passages that either you or I am not taking as seriously as we should, or that one will see literal and one figurative.

Much love!

 

[Godslittleservant]

Mark can you define Sinai Covenant are you just talking about the 10 commandments or the whole law of Moses?

 

[rwb]

Mark can you define Sinai Covenant are you just talking about the 10 commandments or the whole law of Moses?

Glad you ask him, I was wondering about his defining of the Sinai Covenant myself?

 

[BlessedPeace]

The problem of bifurcation.
In the early Church we had a dualism associated with Marcion, the heretic, who separated the OT God from the NT God. Today, I see the same tendencies in Dispensationalism, as well as in any extreme form of Grace teaching, where the concept of "law" is completely ignored or deemphasized.

It is also evidenent in Amillennialism, where Israel is rejected as an outmoded "physical" reality, to be replaced by the more "spiritual" reality of a Christian Church. Obviously, this is going to cause some controversy and even emotional protest. But if this kind of conversation is kept "in house," then I think we can focus on our agreements, rather than these disagreements?

So I'm not appealing for more argumentation, as much as for understanding our respective positions. And then, the focus is on what unifies us, despite our differences.

Perhaps we can approach the discussion from a non-defensive perspective.

Early writers criticisms aside.

Let us look at what Jesus,who was God, said. Keeping in mind we are told Jesus is the same yesterday,today,and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

I think we must recall the brutality described throughout the Old Testament in keeping to the prosecution of God's law,and consequential law breaking, as well as the punishments applied to those worshipping other gods, or angering Yahweh.

We should notice the New Testament amends that of the Old.

And Jesus,being the God of the Old, who does not change, (Malachi 3:6), I think it behooves us to attempt to reconcile Jesus in the New Testament often corrected or changed certain God given edicts in the Old.

Matthew 5 as one example.

 

[marks]

Mark can you define Sinai Covenant are you just talking about the 10 commandments or the whole law of Moses?

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This covenant.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This covenant.

Much love!

Read verse six and then go read peter . Peter calls the CHURCH this holy nation etc.
YEP . What man failed to do , JESUS PREVAILED and now the words of GOD are wrote upon our hearts .
Let all that has breath praise and rejoice and thank the glorious LORD .

 

[marks]

Read verse six and then go read peter . Peter calls the CHURCH this holy nation etc.

Remember to whom Peter addressed his letter . . . Peter did not actually apply this to believing gentiles. He applied it to believing Jews of the diaspora, in whom this was fulfilled according to God's word in Exodus, fulfilled in these who have trusted into Christ, and receive the benefit of His obedience.

I know this is going to put me on the outs with a lot of you, I'm hoping you'll go easy on me. But look at the text and see that what I'm saying is true.

God gave this promise to a people-group, and foretold the time coming when it would be fulfilled. And ALL of God's promises are Yes and Amen in Christ. Even these.

Maybe not reply here and mess up this great thread?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Remember to whom Peter addressed his letter . . . Peter did not actually apply this to believing gentiles. He applied it to believing Jews of the diaspora.

Much love!

Mark it applies to those who beleive IN JESUS CHRIST . just bask in the beauty of His words and feast upon them .
Now raise those hands , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME in the building and round the world . The LORD is with the lambs .

 

[rwb]

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This covenant.

Much love!

You said "But yes, I think these passages which show Israel keeping the Sinai Covenant will be fulfilled also." How would keeping the Sinai Covenant which according to Paul would bring them to bondage, be a means of saving them?

Galatians 4:24 (KJV) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Much love to you also!

 

[marks]

And Jesus,being the God of the Old, who does not change, (Malachi 3:6), I think it behooves us to attempt to reconcile Jesus in the New Testament often corrected or changed certain God given edicts in the Old.

I think the Key Word is reconcile. Jesus took the form of a servant to come for the purpose of reconciling us back to God, and achieved His purpose.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

You said "But yes, I think these passages which show Israel keeping the Sinai Covenant will be fulfilled also." How would keeping the Sinai Covenant which according to Paul would bring them to bondage, be a means of saving them?

Galatians 4:24 (KJV) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Much love to you also!

What a wonderful reminder my friend. exactly . MOTHER HEAVENLY JERUSLAM is HOME OF THE LAMBS
which are those who BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST no matter what flesh they were born into .
The born again of GOD and of HIS CHRIST . Raise those hands and point to CHRIST JESUS till the last and final breath ebbs
out those lungs . for the flesh , the flesh i say , YET I SAID NOT FIRST , profits none .
Now raise those hands and let the KING be praised .

 

[marks]

You said "But yes, I think these passages which show Israel keeping the Sinai Covenant will be fulfilled also." How would keeping the Sinai Covenant which according to Paul would bring them to bondage, be a means of saving them?

It's not a means of saving them, Jesus does that, if they trust in Him. Jesus kept the covenant on their behalf.

Jesus died on my behalf, being a gentile. As a man, and as a sinner, I was subject to the Law of Sin and Death, which stood as the principle governing my life. I've sinned, therefore, I die. Jesus fulfills this for me, submitting to the Father in death, which fulfills the requirment that I die, so that I can live, and come into the new Law, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfills for me what is required, that is, a perfectly obedient life, and death to fulfill righteousness for sin - my sin. I trust in Him, and receive the benefit of the transaction, Life for Death.

Israel has more to their covenant with God. Many think that the Sinai Covenant is over, but Peter affirms it's not. Actually there are many prophecies that Israel, once they, as a people, have come to faith when He comes in glory, that they will then receive all that goes with their covenant made at Sinai. They will "keep all the statutes and judgment", a people as James described, "zealous to keep the Law".

They will be the head of nations, prosperous in everything, all that was described for them in their covenant. Fulfilled on their behalf. The benefit received when they trust into Christ, who fulfilled it on their behalf.

You see, Israel, they get to have their cake . . . and eat it too!

They will live in a glorious kingdom age for 1,000 years, showing the world what happens to the people who have been chosen by the LORD.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Perhaps we can approach the discussion from a non-defensive perspective.

Early writers criticisms aside.

Let us look at what Jesus,who was God, said. Keeping in mind we are told Jesus is the same yesterday,today,and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

I think we must recall the brutality described throughout the Old Testament in keeping to the prosecution of God's law,and consequential law breaking, as well as the punishments applied to those worshipping other gods, or angering Yahweh.

We should notice the New Testament amends that of the Old.

And Jesus,being the God of the Old, who does not change, (Malachi 3:6), I think it behooves us to attempt to reconcile Jesus in the New Testament often corrected or changed certain God given edicts in the Old.

Matthew 5 as one example.

Yes, considering how Jesus appeared as a reformer of Jewish practice under the Law it does us well to consider the similarities between the OT Law and NT teaching. Jesus stood at the midway point in his earthly ministry and explained how failure under the Law would lead to the cross. What followed was the same fundamental morality and spirituality without the Law, which had been irrevocably broken.