The Problem With The Trinity

[Mjh29]

He didn't put all 3 on equal footing. If they were truly his words (which I seriously doubt based on external and internal evidence), he simply cites the Father, Son and holy spirit without stating they are equal or that they are three separate persons. He certainly does not say they are all God or that they are all co-equal or co-eternal as the trinity doctrine states. I have no doubt there is a Father and a Son and a holy spirit.

If those words are truly Yeshua's, then it seems to me the apostles disobeyed him since we never see them using that formula when baptizing. They commonly use, "in the name of the Master Yeshua" (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5).

Well if you soubt what scripture says I cannot have a logical argument.

 

[gadar perets]

Well if you soubt what scripture says I cannot have a logical argument.

Since we have no manuscript evidence from the first three centuries, and since we do have evidence from Eusebius and other early writers that quote Matthew 28:19, but not in its current form, there is indeed cause to doubt.

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul did not have to use the term “persons” as it is understood without saying.

well, it is inferred, yes; "understood" is...also a good way to state the perception i s'pose, yes. There are even abundant Quotes that might be employed to reinforce the perception too i guess, huh. So then i guess i agree with you, it is understood without saying

Already in Genesis 1:26 God said, “Let us (plural) make man in our image, after our likeness...”

um, we have a name for people who talk like that i guess, but i guess that maybe doesn't help much...so i'll just say that that interpretation, "God is a person like we all are, and God made all of us in His image" is going to run into problems when you later say...oh, who the sons of God are, or even why few there are who find it, if all were made in God's image?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways"

God is the Author of the Bible and He has declared there are three persons in the Godhead...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

this is not true, and you even just said that it is understood without saying right

What is the point of God teaching His children that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead?

since He does not, and persons has only been assumed as you have mentioned, a better point might be that His children wish to personify Him so that they will have a god they can understand, and Scripture will cater to this misunderstanding to hide wisdom from the wise

It does not make sense unless there are three persons indeed!

If not, you are making God a liar and God does not lie.

in your current opinion maybe, but this does not make that truth, right

What you will end up with there is a bunch of contradictions, and you will just keep contradicting yourself as you are doing now wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, neither can beastiality in the New Testament. Does that make it morally correct?

in the New Testament
i mean pls already

 

[brakelite]

Okay, so we are made in the image of God. But then came the fall, and that image marred. Hence the need to be recreated in the image of Christ. But to go back to creation, we aren't omnipotent, nor immortal. So that original image must have been in other areas. One is in relationship. The motif we learn of in scripture, one that ancient Israel did not cotton on to, was the Father/Son motif we recognise in the NT between the Father and Jesus. Because our own father/son relationships are literal, we must assume that so is God's relationship literal with His own Son...not a metaphor or a parable. That motif of image could also be carried on into how we are made. Some Christians have claimed that body/soul/spirit is indicative of the trinity, however, I would disagree with that. Certainly, the body and spirit are two separate entities, although neither are given any indication in scripture that they have a life on their own. The soul, the third component as believed, is in actuality only existent because of the union between body and spirit. So the comparison in image really falls down.
What does resonate with me is the ability to procreate...to beget others. Both spiritually and physically...and the instruction to fill the earth with offspring is a component of that.

 

[Enoch111]

It is a common trinitarian tactic to play on the fears and emotions of anyone that questions the trinity.

You can call it what you will, but the Lord Jesus Christ made it perfectly clear that if you do not believe that He is "I AM" (Almighty God) you will die in your sins (John 8:24). That should strike fear into the hearts of all who reject the deity of Christ, and consequently the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Jun2u]

You can call it what you will, but the Lord Jesus Christ made it perfectly clear that if you do not believe that He is "I AM" (Almighty God) you will die in your sins (John 8:24). That should strike fear into the hearts of all who reject the deity of Christ, and consequently thether doctrine of the Trinity.

Not only do I agree but Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit declared in Galatians 1:8-9, and I quote:
8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Note how Paul drove home the point by repeating the term, "let him be accursed" twice!

 

[aspen]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not meant to limit God - it just describes in the most simple way what we know about God. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God, yet God is one; the logical conclusion is the doctrine of the Trinity.

How else can it be explained?

Using the term ‘Godhead’ is fine, but a bit rebellious when your church is only using it to place distance between itself and its mother, Catholicism

 

[Nancy]

Although there is a Triune God and that there are 3 Witnesses within the One God; the concept of the Trinity is not how God the Father wants us to worship Him by. And He will judge believers by this too.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son in glorifying the Son. Now how is He going to do that? Through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: .........

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory or otherwise it is a false witness.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Therefore the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself through the believers in seeking His own glory for then that would mean there is unrighteousness in the Holy Spirit, but there is none.

It is when believers have been misled into thinking they are to honor & glorify the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but they do so not by the scripture nor by the Holy Spirit leading them to say this.

The errant Nicene creed introduced the unBiblical practice and believers need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the wrship place and in fellowship and in prayer when coming to God the Father at all.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please hear His words; the Son is the only way to honor & glorify God the Father by. That is what the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to do as dwelling within us.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed...........

Paul stressed that focal point in worship to be on the Son.

Even in fellowship.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So God the Father is not honored by honoring the Holy Spirit nor the "Trinity", because the Holy Spirit and scripture is leading believers to do the Father's will by honoring & glorifying the Son and by doing so, we are honoring & glorifying God the Father. Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father in anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship as those led by the Spirit of God & scripture shall do by His grace & by His help.

So ask Jesus for confirmation on how the Father wants you to only honor Him by today, and help to do His will by only honoring the Son in all things.

Indeed. Everything points to the Son ♥

 

[aspen]

I think I am going to read all of Ellen White’s writings......that will keep me busy for a decade. But, if i am going to understand the SDa mindset, i am going to have to make that slog

 

[Jun2u]

um, we have a name for people who talk like that i guess, but i guess that maybe doesn't help much...so i'll just say that that interpretation, "God is a person like we all are, and God made all of us in His image" is going to run into problems when you later say...oh, who the sons of God are, or even why few there are who find it, if all were made in God's image?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways"

I’m sorry, I believe it is you who have the wrong interpretation of Ge 1:26.

When God created Adam & Eve, He gave them also the spirit to live forever, but when the command came and they disobeyed that command, they became subject to physical as well as spiritual death...”the wages of sin is death.” Hence, mankind needs to be reborn to enter the kingdom of God once again.

God did NOT create man to have some attributes like essence and substance as people might think. God created man in His image and likeness only in the sense that man may also have eternal life.

 

[Enoch111]

I think I am going to read all of Ellen White’s writings...

Not sure why you would want to do that in connection with the topic of this thread. Adventist beliefs about the Trinity correspond to those of conservative Christians. Please note this from their own website:

"There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)"

https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/god/trinity/

 

[gadar perets]

You can call it what you will, but the Lord Jesus Christ made it perfectly clear that if you do not believe that He is "I AM" (Almighty God) you will die in your sins (John 8:24). That should strike fear into the hearts of all who reject the deity of Christ, and consequently the doctrine of the Trinity.

The only thing that strikes fear in my heart is how Christians twist that verse to make it say what they want instead of what Yeshua meant. I fear for how they will be judged as a result of their false teaching. The verse says nothing about Yeshua being God or, a worse error, Almighty God.

 

[gadar perets]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not meant to limit God - it just describes in the most simple way what we know about God. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God, yet God is one; the logical conclusion is the doctrine of the Trinity.

How else can it be explained?

The Scriptures do not declare Yeshua (Jesus) to be "God". English translations do that. The Scriptures declare he is either "elohim" or "theos". Both words are used of men as well as the Father. Since there is only one God and a multitude of verses declare that God is Father YHWH, then when "elohim" or "theos" are used of the Son, it must be in a lesser sense than YHWH being "Elohim" or "Theos". Yeshua is an "elohim" in the same sense that the Israelites of Psalm 82:6 are "elohim".

Also, the Holy Spirit is not a third person who is also "God". The Holy Spirit is the mind, influence and power of the only true God.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The Scriptures do not declare Yeshua (Jesus) to be "God". English translations do that. The Scriptures declare he is either "elohim" or "theos". Both words are used of men as well as the Father. Since there is only one God and a multitude of verses declare that God is Father YHWH, then when "elohim" or "theos" are used of the Son, it must be in a lesser sense than YHWH being "Elohim" or "Theos". Yeshua is an "elohim" in the same sense that the Israelites of Psalm 82:6 are "elohim".

Also, the Holy Spirit is not a third person who is also "God". The Holy Spirit is the mind, influence and power of the only true God.

You cannot grieve the Holy Spirit unless He is a Person.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

He cannot be considered a Witness unless He actually bears testimony of the Son through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

The only way God as God can bear witness in establishing a testimony and judge any one is by having Three Witnesses within that One God, otherwise as the One Person God, God cannot establish a word in creation nor judge any one in according to His words when mankind is to bear witness and judge by this standard.

Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

So when you read this:

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

That is why God the Father spoke from Heaven at His water baptism with the Witness of the Holy Spirit lighting on Jesus also to make the God's witness true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This was to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah where God is speaking and yet it is the Lord God and His Spirit that sent God the Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

So pray about that, brother. The Triune God exists... 1 John 5:7 originally belongs in scripture, otherwise how can the witness of God be greater then men's in 1 John 5:9 by the rest of the scripture if He was only a One Person God?

http://solascriptura-tt.org/Bibliologia-PreservacaoTT/1Jn5-7-Ruckman.htm

 

[gadar perets]

You cannot grieve the Holy Spirit unless He is a Person.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit is a portion of the Father, not a third person. The Father can take a portion of Himself and put it in another person. When we grieve the HS, we are grieving the Father.

Any personal attributes of the HS refer to the Father because the HS is the mind, essence and power of the Father. Yet, we also see impersonal attributes of the HS such as; it fills people (Acts 2:4); can be poured out (Acts 2.17,18); is upon people (Acts 19:6); people can drink it (1 Cor.12:13); it is a down payment (2 Cor.1:22); it is a seal (Eph.1:13); it is symbolic ink (2 Cor.3:3); etc.

The only way God as God can bear witness in establishing a testimony and judge any one is by having Three Witnesses within that One God, otherwise as the One Person God, God cannot establish a word in creation nor judge any one in according to His words when mankind is to bear witness and judge by this standard.

Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

First you said, "The only way God as God can bear witness in establishing a testimony and judge any one is by having Three Witnesses within that One God", but then you went on to list several verses saying two will suffice.

So when you read this:

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

The two are the Father and the Son.

That is why God the Father spoke from Heaven at His water baptism with the Witness of the Holy Spirit lighting on Jesus also to make the God's witness true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This says nothing about "three persons". We definitely see two persons and the HS which you are assuming is a third person.

This was to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah where God is speaking and yet it is the Lord God and His Spirit that sent God the Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

First, this passage does not use the phrase, "God the Redeemer". Second, you are assuming "his Spirit" is a separate person from "the Lord God" (Adonai YHWH). Third, the translation you cited is wrong. The correct translation is;

Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now Lord YHWH has sent Me, and His Spirit.​

The Spirit is not a third person coming with the one sent. It is the mind, essence and power of Lord YHWH being sent to accomplish His will.

So pray about that, brother. The Triune God exists... 1 John 5:7 originally belongs in scripture, otherwise how can the witness of God be greater then men's in 1 John 5:9 by the rest of the scripture if He was only a One Person God?

http://solascriptura-tt.org/Bibliologia-PreservacaoTT/1Jn5-7-Ruckman.htm

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
​

Why is it that the Spirit bears record in both heaven and earth, but the Son and the Father, who we know both bore witness on earth, are not mentioned as bearing witness on earth?

Your link was not convincing. I can provide links refuting comments made in your link, but that would probably be futile.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The Holy Spirit is a portion of the Father, not a third person. The Father can take a portion of Himself and put it in another person. When we grieve the HS, we are grieving the Father.

Any personal attributes of the HS refer to the Father because the HS is the mind, essence and power of the Father. Yet, we also see impersonal attributes of the HS such as; it fills people (Acts 2:4); can be poured out (Acts 2.17,18); is upon people (Acts 19:6); people can drink it (1 Cor.12:13); it is a down payment (2 Cor.1:22); it is a seal (Eph.1:13); it is symbolic ink (2 Cor.3:3); etc.


First you said, "The only way God as God can bear witness in establishing a testimony and judge any one is by having Three Witnesses within that One God", but then you went on to list several verses saying two will suffice.

The two are the Father and the Son.

So are you acknowledging that Jesus is God?

This says nothing about "three persons". We definitely see two persons and the HS which you are assuming is a third person.

Why would the Father have the Holy Spirit descend like a dove if His speaking from Heaven is enough in bearing witness of the Son? Because John 8:17 says by His words that it is not enough and so therefore teh Holy Spirit is a Person that bears a separate witness and serves as that Witness with the Father from Heaven that Jesus is God.

First, this passage does not use the phrase, "God the Redeemer". Second, you are assuming "his Spirit" is a separate person from "the Lord God" (Adonai YHWH). Third, the translation you cited is wrong. The correct translation is;

Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now Lord YHWH has sent Me, and His Spirit.​

The Spirit is not a third person coming with the one sent. It is the mind, essence and power of Lord YHWH being sent to accomplish His will.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
​

Why is it that the Spirit bears record in both heaven and earth, but the Son and the Father, who we know both bore witness on earth, are not mentioned as bearing witness on earth?

Your link was not convincing. I can provide links refuting comments made in your link, but that would probably be futile.

Because the Spirit serves as a Witness in us and through us as John 15:26-27 says. When you witness by yourself to others, the only way your witness can be true if the Holy Spirit serves as that Witness too as John 8:17 by His word requires.

So you are in a conundrum .. if not a paradox when you refuse the witness of the Holy Spirit in you as a separate Witness in order for your testimony to be true.

 

[gadar perets]

So are you acknowledging that Jesus is God?

No. How did you arrive at that conclusion from my words?

Why would the Father have the Holy Spirit descend like a dove if His speaking from Heaven is enough in bearing witness of the Son? Because John 8:17 says by His words that it is not enough and so therefore teh Holy Spirit is a Person that bears a separate witness and serves as that Witness with the Father from Heaven that Jesus is God.

For the same reason the Holy Spirit descend upon the heads of believers in Acts 2 (as a sign that they were receiving the indwelling HS. John the Baptist was the other witness, but he was not a witness that "Jesus is God". You are reading that into the text. He was a witness that Yeshua was immersed to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15) and that he was receiving the indwelling HS.

Because the Spirit serves as a Witness in us and through us as John 15:26-27 says. When you witness by yourself to others, the only way your witness can be true if the Holy Spirit serves as that Witness too as John 8:17 by His word requires.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
​

Verse 27 only pertains to the twelve disciples. We were not with Yeshua from the beginning. When I witness, I can only witness from Scripture since I was not alive in Yeshua's day. When I tell people Yeshua died, was buried and arose again the third day, Scripture is the second witness and the HS which is the mind, essence and power of the Father is the first witness. The HS is not a third person. If it was a third person, then Father YHWH would not be Yeshua's Father. The HS would be his father.

So you are in a conundrum .. if not a paradox when you refuse the witness of the Holy Spirit in you as a separate Witness in order for your testimony to be true.

I do not refuse the witness of the HS in me. I just don't see it as a third person. The personal attributes of the HS are the Father's.

 

[amadeus]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not meant to limit God - it just describes in the most simple way what we know about God. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God, yet God is one; the logical conclusion is the doctrine of the Trinity.

How else can it be explained?

Do we need such a clear explanation for ourselves or for others? If we do and we are sincere and we are searching, will God not provide it? Ask the average believer who says he is a Trinitarian and probably he will be unable to say why other than it is what his ministers or his friends or his parents have done. He may be able to provide a pet doctrine such as Matt 28:19, but when you ask him about Acts 2:38 he will want to end the discussion. This is not how it should be. If a person is reading and praying simply staying in touch with God he will not need to be pressing on others to follow him rather than to follow Him, will he? Being led by the Holy Spirit to speak to someone about God and trying to arm twist that person into believing exactly as you believe are rather different, are they not?

Using the term ‘Godhead’ is fine, but a bit rebellious when your church is only using it to place distance between itself and its mother, Catholicism

People should be seeking God's kingdom and righteousness first no matter which church group claim as theirs or if they claim none of the visible organized churches. If they are not, then they'll miss the boat anyway:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[Episkopos]

The only thing that strikes fear in my heart is how Christians twist that verse to make it say what they want instead of what Yeshua meant. I fear for how they will be judged as a result of their false teaching. The verse says nothing about Yeshua being God or, a worse error, Almighty God.

It actually does...I could start a thread and show you that Hashem sends Hashem to the earth.

There are numerous times where Jesus is referred to as Hashem in the word. You would just have to know the word better.

Even when it says that Immanuel will be born of a virgin...in Hebrew it is not a name but a title...it is 2 words. עמנו אל ...If it was just a name it would be all one word as in Samuel. So then "El" or God will be born of a virgin...this is a sign and wonder. It is literally "God with us."