The Problem With The Trinity

[brakelite]

He sent His Son.

Great, I agree. So if I have a son, what is he? Like father like son right? So my son is a man. Although a rather imperfect reproduction, a man nevertheless.
So if a perfect God begets a Son, surely the Son is a perfect reproduction of His Father?
KJV Hebrews 1
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
If my imperfect son is a man, surely God's perfect son must also be God?

 

[Enoch111]

Since we have no manuscript evidence from the first three centuries, and since we do have evidence from Eusebius and other early writers that quote Matthew 28:19, but not in its current form, there is indeed cause to doubt.

Casting doubt on the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 means that you could cast doubt on all of Scripture.

But we do have evidence from the first three centuries in many ways. The Syriac Peshitta (as one example) was already in circulation in the 2nd century.

Matthew28:19 - ܙܠܘ ܗܟܝܠ ܬܠܡܕܘ ܟܠܗܘܢ ܥܡܡܐ ܘܐܥܡܕܘ ܐܢܘܢ ܒܫܡ ܐܒܐ ܘܒܪܐ ܘܪܘܚܐܕܩܘܕܫܐ ܀

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[Heart2Soul]

Although there is a Triune God and that there are 3 Witnesses within the One God; the concept of the Trinity is not how God the Father wants us to worship Him by. And He will judge believers by this too.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son in glorifying the Son. Now how is He going to do that? Through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: .........

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory or otherwise it is a false witness.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Therefore the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself through the believers in seeking His own glory for then that would mean there is unrighteousness in the Holy Spirit, but there is none.

It is when believers have been misled into thinking they are to honor & glorify the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but they do so not by the scripture nor by the Holy Spirit leading them to say this.

The errant Nicene creed introduced the unBiblical practice and believers need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the wrship place and in fellowship and in prayer when coming to God the Father at all.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please hear His words; the Son is the only way to honor & glorify God the Father by. That is what the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to do as dwelling within us.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed...........

Paul stressed that focal point in worship to be on the Son.

Even in fellowship.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So God the Father is not honored by honoring the Holy Spirit nor the "Trinity", because the Holy Spirit and scripture is leading believers to do the Father's will by honoring & glorifying the Son and by doing so, we are honoring & glorifying God the Father. Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father in anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship as those led by the Spirit of God & scripture shall do by His grace & by His help.

So ask Jesus for confirmation on how the Father wants you to only honor Him by today, and help to do His will by only honoring the Son in all things.

Well you create a good argument to your belief but they are distinctly 3 individuals who have their position and purpose for fulfilling God's Will....
I recently shared this with someone else the other day....when Jesus was baptized and straightway after he emerged from the water the heavens opened up and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon Him and a voice from heaven was heard saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased......okay....so did Jesus get baptized with the Holy Spirit....well IMHO the Holy Spirit descended on Him and empowered Him with the gifts....and right after leaving the Jordan river the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.

Treasury of Scripture
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

A.M.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted …

full.

Luke 4:14,18 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there …

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove on him, …

Isaiah 11:2-4 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest on him, the spirit of wisdom …

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on me; because the LORD has anointed …

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: …

John 1:32 And John bore record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven …

John 3:34 For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not …

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost,.... The Spirit of God having descended on him at his baptism, and afresh anointed, and filled his human nature with his gifts, whereby, as man, he was abundantly furnished for the great work of the public ministry, he was just about to enter upon; yet must first go through a series of temptations, and which, through the fulness of the Holy Spirit in him, he was sufficiently fortified against.

Then we have Jesus telling the disciples that no man knows the hour nor the day when the end will be except the Father....not even Jesus knew.....so this IMHO distinctly sets them apart from each other...then Jesus said pray to no one but the Father....so we pray and when ask our Father to grant our prayers we are told to ask in Jesus name....and the Holy Spirit is the anointing or power of God who speaks only what the Father tells Him....and who equips us with the same gifts He equipped Jesus with...


Okay...that's my 2 cents worth....Good Night and God Bless!

 

[Stranger]

I believe Yeshua became a life giving spirit that has the ability to manifest a physical body (John 20:27), spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44), or no body at all (1 Corinthians 15:45).

Jesus was a life giving Spirit when He walked the earth. And He, as a life giving Spirit, had a body. Just like Adam was a living soul, with a body, so Jesus was a life giving Spirit with a body. Jesus did not become a life giving Spirit at the resurrection.

At the resurrection, the Holy Spirit, forever combined, for lack of better terms, the body of Jesus with the Son. It is a glorified spiritual body, but it is a physical body also.

The Son always existed as God the Son with the Father and Holy Spirit. The Son was given a body and we know Him as Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit raised the body of Jesus with the Son, and He will forever be Jesus Christ, the Son. There will never be a time now when the Son will not be a Man.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Casting doubt on the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 means that you could cast doubt on all of Scripture.

But we do have evidence from the first three centuries in many ways. The Syriac Peshitta (as one example) was already in circulation in the 2nd century.

Matthew28:19 - ܙܠܘ ܗܟܝܠ ܬܠܡܕܘ ܟܠܗܘܢ ܥܡܡܐ ܘܐܥܡܕܘ ܐܢܘܢ ܒܫܡ ܐܒܐ ܘܒܪܐ ܘܪܘܚܐܕܩܘܕܫܐ ܀

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Even if the verse is authentic, that doesn't mean it teaches the trinity. This verse does not say the Holy Spirit is a third person. Nor does it say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-eternal or comprise the "only true God" whom Yeshua said is the Father alone.

 

[gadar perets]

Great, I agree. So if I have a son, what is he? Like father like son right? So my son is a man. Although a rather imperfect reproduction, a man nevertheless.
So if a perfect God begets a Son, surely the Son is a perfect reproduction of His Father?
KJV Hebrews 1
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
If my imperfect son is a man, surely God's perfect son must also be God?

The Son, while he walked the earth, was a 100% flesh and blood man and 0% celestial being. You are thinking in terms of earthly procreation. If that is how the Son came to be, then yes, your understanding would be correct. A kind begets like kind. Horses beget horses and man begets man. Therefore, God begets God. However, that is not how Yeshua came to be. He was spoken into existence by his Father (the logos - spoken words and thoughts of the Father - became flesh). The Father did not pass DNA or anything else to Miriam to create Yeshua. He simply spoke and fertilized Miriam's egg with the necessary DNA to produce a 100% male child.
"God" is not a kind. "God" is a title. The Father is Spirit. If anything, Spirit begets Spirit, but Yeshua was not a Spirit. He was a man with his own spirit just as we and he later was filled with his Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Son is NOT a "reproduction" of the Father. He was born flesh. That flesh was the "image"/likeness of the Father, but not the physical likeness since the Father is not a physical being.

 

[brakelite]

The Son, while he walked the earth, was a 100% flesh and blood man and 0% celestial being. You are thinking in terms of earthly procreation. If that is how the Son came to be, then yes, your understanding would be correct. A kind begets like kind. Horses beget horses and man begets man. Therefore, God begets God. However, that is not how Yeshua came to be. He was spoken into existence by his Father (the logos - spoken words and thoughts of the Father - became flesh). The Father did not pass DNA or anything else to Miriam to create Yeshua. He simply spoke and fertilized Miriam's egg with the necessary DNA to produce a 100% male child.
"God" is not a kind. "God" is a title. The Father is Spirit. If anything, Spirit begets Spirit, but Yeshua was not a Spirit. He was a man with his own spirit just as we and he later was filled with his Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Son is NOT a "reproduction" of the Father. He was born flesh. That flesh was the "image"/likeness of the Father, but not the physical likeness since the Father is not a physical being.

But did you not state that God sent a Son to become a man, or am I misreading you?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Well you create a good argument to your belief but they are distinctly 3 individuals who have their position and purpose for fulfilling God's Will....
I recently shared this with someone else the other day....when Jesus was baptized and straightway after he emerged from the water the heavens opened up and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon Him and a voice from heaven was heard saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased......okay....so did Jesus get baptized with the Holy Spirit....well IMHO the Holy Spirit descended on Him and empowered Him with the gifts....and right after leaving the Jordan river the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.

There is something to reconsider in regards to your honest opinion...

Well, Jesus was in the Temple teaching when He was 12 years old.

Luke 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

So I believe His water baptism was not for the purpose for which you applied the Holy Spirit descending on Him for, but to add to the witness of the Father's witness from Heaven that Jesus is God.

Since He is One with the Father and thus also the Holy Ghost, I do not see the necessity for Him to be filled the way born again believers needed to be filled at their salvation after His ascension in having power in being able to serve Him as well as in following Him.

So I believe He was led by the Spirit of the Father into the wilderness but His water baptism did not have to Him "filled" for that to happen when He was in the temple going about His Father's business when he was twelve. The visual witness of the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus added with the Father's testimony was to fulfill the scripture that They sent Him, the Lord God our Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

But thank you for sharing your 2 cents,

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Since He is One with the Father and thus also the Holy Ghost, I do not see the necessity for Him to be filled the way born again believers needed to be filled at their salvation after His ascension in having power in being able to serve Him as well as in following Him.

Jesus was not filled with the Holy Spirit,, I agree, He was empowered with the gifts of the Holy Spirit and by the Power of the Spirit performed many miracles...but I am just regurgitating what I was taught all my life....I have never challenged it because it bears witness with my spirit. Thanks for sharing your teaching on it...I may come back and meditate on it some more....gotta get off here and get busy...Have a great day!

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus was not filled with the Holy Spirit

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness... (Luke 4:1)

We need to be careful that we do not contradict Scripture.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness... (Luke 4:1)

We need to be careful that we do not contradict Scripture.

"Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost" is just citing how He was returning from Jordan as for why He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Skeptics would consider Him crazy for going into the wilderness for no reason, but as led by the Spirit, that was why.

There is basis for applying His words to mean it that way. In the Book of Acts, we will find several references of how His disciples spoke and did things to indicate that they were not saying so or doing so by their intention and willpower, but by the leading and empowering of the Holy Spirit to speak or to go somewhere or not to go somewhere or even to be able to see something that no one else could see.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

The reference was to indicate to believers how Stephen was able to see that; that he was not crazy, but the Holy Ghost enabled him to see that. No supernatural filling of the Spirit to be full is required for Stephen to see that. Stephen was already filled with the Holy Ghost and so the reference was to testify to how he saw that in Heaven and yet nobody else did that were killing him.

Other examples are..

Acts 4:8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:8 is testifying that although Peter is speaking, he is doing so by the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:50-52 is testifying to Jesus is Lord and how Paul and Barnabas could be rejoicing in spite of being mistreated and expelled out of the city. One would imagine a dusting off of their feet against those whom had expelled them would suggest anger, maybe even suspicions of hatred and malice against them, but verse 52 testified that none of the works of the flesh were in them when they were expelled nor when they entered into Iconium.

So being full of the Holy Ghost or filled with the Holy Ghost does not always refer to the time of salvation moment for when they were receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit, ( certainly Jesus did not need the Holy Ghost in that way for salvation ) just as that phrase is being used differently in the context of scripture elsewhere to testify by how His disciples were able to, especially in the Book of Acts.

There is no more filling for a Spirit filled born again believer. Just to be clear. We are to place our confidence in the Son to finish His work in us ( Philippians 1:6 ) where the fruits of righteousness are from Jesus Christ ( Philippians 1:11 ); no supernatural refilling required.

 

[Enoch111]

"Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost" is just citing how He was returning from Jordan as for why He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Well I responded to the post which said that Jesus was NOT filled with the Holy Ghost. Scripture refuted that, and you are trying to diminish its significance. Jesus was ALWAYS and CONTINUALLY filled with the Holy Spirit.

But Christians are not always filled with the Spirit, since sometimes the flesh takes over.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Well I responded to the post which said that Jesus was NOT filled with the Holy Ghost. Scripture refuted that, and you are trying to diminish its significance. Jesus was ALWAYS and CONTINUALLY filled with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is One with the Father and the Holy Ghost. No filling required. The phrase is just for testifying by how He was led into the wilderness so that nobody would think He was crazy. If you remove that phrase regarding the Holy Spirit, no one would wonder why He went there.

But Christians are not always filled with the Spirit, since sometimes the flesh takes over.

I contend just to clarify because we are in this sinful flesh still, is why we are always filled with the Spirit so that we are held accountable for what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.

There will be no excuse for our sins because we cannot say we were not filled with the Spirit to resist the devil or temptations when it comes.

As it is, wayward believers are using that phrase to preach to believers to continue receiving a supernatural filling of the Holy Ghost, when there is none.

Since the Greek word "pneuma" has different definitions as it cannot all mean the same thing for that would be blasphemous to the Holy Ghost, then just as spirit is defined by how it is used in the verse, the same goes for phrases in how it is used in the verse.

Do discern with Him how wayward believers use that phrase in some verses to suggest a continual supernatural refilling of the Holy Ghost in the life of an already saved believer.

 

[Heart2Soul]

And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness... (Luke 4:1)

We need to be careful that we do not contradict Scripture.

Isn't it strange that within the same verse there are 2 different terms used 1....being full of the Holy Ghost......2. ...and was led by the Spirit...now they both are referring to the Holy Spirit....but I am not a bible scholar but when I saw these two used in the same sentence I was wondering why this translator did this....and I have listened to a lot of youtube videos about this....and it is mixed on the teaching....so what is being full of the Holy Ghost all about
So we know that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost....so He is of the very essence and chemistry of the God the Father through his conception.....so the Holy Ghost is in His DNA...but this is not my point...being full of the Holy Ghost is when He was given the gifts which we can have as well and from then on He is led of the Spirit, the Spirit is upon Him....the Spirit has anointed Him and so on...so being born of the Holy Ghost makes you consider this indwelling baptism of the Holy Spirit ....In Luke "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee; and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God.".
So No doubt that Jesus was fully in the flesh but He was also fully God....so because I do believe in the Trinity

I am copying and pasting this commentary because it is pretty accurate..
Jesus Christ was anointed and fitted for service by the Holy Spirit. We read in Acts x.38, "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him." In a prophetic vision of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament we read in Isa. lxi.1, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound." In Luke's record of the earthly life of our Lord in Luke iv.14, we read "And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee, and there went out a fame of Him through all the region round about." In a similar way Jesus said of Himself when speaking in the synagogue in Nazareth, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the poor; He hath sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke iv.18, 19, R. V.). All these passages contain the one lesson, that it was by the especial anointing with the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ was qualified for the service to which God had called Him. As He stood in the Jordan after His baptism, "The Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him," and it was then and there that He was anointed with the Holy Spirit, baptized with the Holy Spirit, and equipped for the service that lay before Him. Jesus Christ received His equipment for service in the same way that we receive ours by a definite baptism with the Holy Spirit..


What Does Jesus’s Baptism with the Holy Spirit Mean?
So what does it mean? What does John the Gospel-writer have in mind when he tells us what John the Baptist says in verse 33, “This is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit”? What does baptism with the Holy Spirit mean?

1) The Spirit Comes Through Jesus

First, it means that from now on — now that God has come in the flesh — the Holy Spirit will come to people through Jesus Christ. The Spirit came upon Jesus and remains upon Jesus, and therefore Jesus is the one who gives the Spirit (John 15:26). The Holy Spirit will not do his redemptive work apart from Jesus. Jesus will be the means by which anyone receives the Spirit. Whatever saving work the Spirit does, he does because of Jesus. The Spirit does not flow like a fluid through the world unattached to Jesus. Everywhere he moves he moves with Jesus and for Jesus. That’s the first thing it means to say that “Jesus baptizes with the Spirit.”

2) Jesus Immerses People in the Spirit

Second, it means that Jesus immerses people in the Spirit. That’s what the word baptize means. There are pictures in the Bible of the Spirit being poured out. But when the idea of baptism (that is, dipping or immersion) is brought in, the point is that the Spirit is poured over us to such an extent that we are enveloped in him.

The point of this image is that the Spirit becomes profoundly and pervasively influential in our lives. When you are immersed in something, it touches you everywhere. So when John says that Jesus is going to baptize with the Spirit, he means that the day is coming when the lives of God’s people will be plunged into the life of the Spirit with profound and pervasive effects.

When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.....gave Him the Power of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit...and Jesus told his disciple that when He goes He will send another the comforter, the Holy Spirt, the Spirit of Truth.....and they will receive Power from on high...

So the Holy Spirit seals us: “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit.” (2 Corinthians 1:21) So we are the temple of the Holy Spirit....this is the indwelling I refer to ….and when we get saved we ask we are born again of His Spirit.

Well I am certain this does not clear anything up...but I absolutely believe the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and empowered Him and led him straightway to the wilderness to be tempted.

 

[Enoch111]

but I am not a bible scholar but when I saw these two used in the same sentence I was wondering why this translator did this.

The translators only translated what was in the Greek text. So if that is how the Holy Spirit gave those words to Luke, that is how they must be accepted.

Ἰησοῦς δὲ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου πλήρης (full of the Holy Spirit) ὑπέστρεψεν ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰορδάνου, καὶ ἤγετο ἐν τῷ Πνεύματι (led by the Spirit) εἰς τὴν ἔρημον... (Lk 4:1)

You had said that Jesus was NOT filled with the Spirit, but I believe you have conceded now that He was indeed filled with the Spirit. This does not diminish Christ's deity in the least, but indicates that the Man Jesus of Nazareth was always and continually filled with the Holy Ghost (totally controlled by the Spirit).

Christians who are filled with the Spirit are also led by the spirit, and this has nothing to do with speaking in tongues (as some define "Spirit-filled").

 

[Heart2Soul]

The translators only translated what was in the Greek text. So if that is how the Holy Spirit gave those words to Luke, that is how they must be accepted.

Ἰησοῦς δὲ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου πλήρης (full of the Holy Spirit) ὑπέστρεψεν ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰορδάνου, καὶ ἤγετο ἐν τῷ Πνεύματι (led by the Spirit) εἰς τὴν ἔρημον... (Lk 4:1)

You had said that Jesus was NOT filled with the Spirit, but I believe you have conceded now that He was indeed filled with the Spirit. This does not diminish Christ's deity in the least, but indicates that the Man Jesus of Nazareth was always and continually filled with the Holy Ghost (totally controlled by the Spirit).

Christians who are filled with the Spirit are also led by the spirit, and this has nothing to do with speaking in tongues (as some define "Spirit-filled").

He was the Spirit in the Flesh...born of the Holy Ghost.....anointed of the Holy Spirit

 

[gadar perets]

But did you not state that God sent a Son to become a man, or am I misreading you?

Sorry for the delay. I had no service until now.

The Son existed in the Father's plan of salvation. He did not exist as a living being prior to his earthly conception. He existed in YHWH's mind until it was time for him to be manifested in the flesh. The Father's thoughts/plan was sent/spoken/came out from inside Him (John 16:27; 17:8) and became flesh in Miriam's womb.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for the delay. I had no service until now.

The Son existed in the Father's plan of salvation. He did not exist as a living being prior to his earthly conception. He existed in YHWH's mind until it was time for him to be manifested in the flesh. The Father's thoughts/plan was sent/spoken/came out from inside Him (John 16:27; 17:8) and became flesh in Miriam's womb.

That's the whole point GP
Jesus is the Word of God. God has thoughts, these thoughts are HIS WORD.
If you can say that Yeshua existed in Yaweh's mind until it was time for Yeshua to be manifested in the flesh, then you're agreeing that the WORD of God, Yahweh, existed from the beginning. Yeshua existed with Yahwah from the beginning, from forever.

Just as the Holy Spirit is the breath of God and manifests as the Holy Spirit, so Jesus is the word of God and manifests as the Son of God...but if Jesus was with God from the beginning, from forever, then HE IS God.

My word and thoughts and breath are a part of ME. They're not separate.
If my breath became a person, it would still be ME, not a different person.

 

[brakelite]

Sorry for the delay. I had no service until now.

The Son existed in the Father's plan of salvation. He did not exist as a living being prior to his earthly conception. He existed in YHWH's mind until it was time for him to be manifested in the flesh. The Father's thoughts/plan was sent/spoken/came out from inside Him (John 16:27; 17:8) and became flesh in Miriam's womb.

Mmmm, so the Father wasn't a Father sending a Son, but a God sending an idea which became a Son?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Sorry for the delay. I had no service until now.

The Son existed in the Father's plan of salvation. He did not exist as a living being prior to his earthly conception. He existed in YHWH's mind until it was time for him to be manifested in the flesh. The Father's thoughts/plan was sent/spoken/came out from inside Him (John 16:27; 17:8) and became flesh in Miriam's womb.

gadar you have added words, such as "inside". The text of Jhn. 16:27, 17:8 does not say "from inside him". The texts says, "I came out from him (Father)" and "came out from thee (Father)". Did you do a word study on "came out"? it simply means being sent from the presence of the Father, even in the context. The Son left the presence of His Father in the Throne of Deity, where the Son had ever sat "at His right hand". Look at Jhn. 16:28, as Jesus came, so He returns to the exact same position He had before. If you say Jesus came into existence, then you must also believe He cease to be in existence in that same "return". Look at Jhn. 17:3 and "sent", and in Jhn. 17:5 Jesus speaks of the pre-existant glory He had "with" the Father in that Throne. Again see Jhn. 17:11 in the same thought as Jhn. 16:28. Jesus was to "come" back to the same position He was in before. Was it non-existence? No. It was in the Eternal Throne of Deity.

I have a very long study on the words "came out from", which demonstrate this beyond question.

Moses "came out from" (Exo. 13:3) Egypt. It doesn't mean that he was part of the soil, land, but that He went from one location to another.

Hiram "came out from" (1 Ki. 9:12) Tyre. Same as Moses.

An Angel "came out from" (Rev. 14:18) the altar in heaven. Same as previous.

There are many more such examples I can give, in English, or Greek or even from the Septuagint if neccesary. See also Jhn. 8:42, "proceeded forth and came from" in its context.

See also closely in relation to the Son of the Father in Heaven:

vss 14,42 - “I came”, “I come [from]”, “came” (x2)
vs 23 - “from, of”;
vss 16,18,26,29 - the Father “sent” [the Son];
vss 21,22 - the pharisees could not “come”.

The context is clear from John 8:42 [see Mark 1:38; John 13:3, 16:27,28,30, 17:8; see 1 Corinthians 14:36] that it speaks to Jesus coming from the presence of the Father in Heaven, and being sent unto the earth as the highest messenger, the greatest apostle [Hebrews 3:1], the most exalted ambassador, the most merciful stayer of the execution of men. We see this repeated in other texts also:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out [G1831] from God.
John 16:28 I came forth [G1831] from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
John 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth [G1831] from God.

Notice the parallelism again, as in John 8:24, and it is not metaphorical [John 16:29 ]:

“I came forth from the Father ...”
“... and am come into the world ...”
“... again, I leave the world ...”
“... and go to the Father.”

See another:

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come [G1831] from God, and went to God;

See the contrast:

“... he [Jesus] was come from God ...”
“... and went to God”

Another:

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out [G1831] from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

The alpha and omega, in the context of the Father giving words unto Jesus for the people of the earth:

“... have known surely that I came out from thee ...”
“... and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

To receive Jesus, is to receive the “word” sent forth, that came out from, the heart of the Father in Heaven. Similar texts and ideas are also seen in:

Mark 1:38 And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth [G1831].
1 Corinthians 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

The word G1831 “exerchomai” in these contexts emphasizes the idea of a separation of two persons for a purpose; a going from the presence of the Father in Heaven unto the earth, Whom the Son was later to return unto, as it is written, “and goeth unto God”.

“Exelthein para” in John 16:27, 17:8 is going from beside, leaving the side of [going from the right hand of the Father in mission/commission], and speaks of the personal intimate fellowship with God the Father as an equal.

“Exelthein ek”, thus emphasizes intimate communion between two or more persons, and as such when the statement is made, “I came forth out of”, it gives the picture of leaving the intimate embrace, the bosom of, the Father, and so see John 17:5, for Jesus was “there” in Heaven in that sweet embrace, “with” the Father, and now He is “here”, in earth, with us, Emmanuel, the God with us, as it was written, “Lo, I come ...”, and afterwards, having completed the mission here, returned to where He ever was before, at the right hand of the Father.

For further texts, see John 7:28,29, 12:49, 17:25; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9-10, 1 John 4:14, and continue with John 16:27,28, “I came out from God”, [ie., I left the immediate presence of my Father], John 17:8, “I came out from thee” [ie., I left your immediate presence], and see also the water “proceeding out of” in Revelation 22:1.