The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

That's the whole point GP
Jesus is the Word of God. God has thoughts, these thoughts are HIS WORD.
If you can say that Yeshua existed in Yaweh's mind until it was time for Yeshua to be manifested in the flesh, then you're agreeing that the WORD of God, Yahweh, existed from the beginning. Yeshua existed with Yahwah from the beginning, from forever.

Just as the Holy Spirit is the breath of God and manifests as the Holy Spirit, so Jesus is the word of God and manifests as the Son of God...but if Jesus was with God from the beginning, from forever, then HE IS God.

My word and thoughts and breath are a part of ME. They're not separate.
If my breath became a person, it would still be ME, not a different person.

The logos/word of God existed from the beginning, but the logos/word did NOT become the Son until it was made flesh.

Adam was also in YHWH's mind/plan of salvation. He was part of YHWH's logos. When he was brought into being/made manifest, that did not make him God. It made him a creation of God. Yeshua is a creation of God. He is one of God's creatures (Colossians 1:15), not God Himself.

You are not only saying Yeshua is God, but you are also saying Yeshua is YHWH and Yeshua is the Father. I can never accept such a belief because it is so contrary to Scripture.

 

[gadar perets]

Mmmm, so the Father wasn't a Father sending a Son, but a God sending an idea which became a Son?

Yeshua existed "inside" of YHWH in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the "loins of his father" before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father YHWH). In Hebrews, 7:9, it says that "Levi paid tithes in Abraham". In other words, Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek while he was yet in Abraham's loins (not yet born). Should we make a case that Levi preexisted as a living being before he was born? No. Neither should we believe that of Yeshua. Understanding the concept of preexistence from a Hebraic viewpoint is far different than viewing it from a Hellenized western Christian viewpoint.

The following is a quote expressing the typical Jewish understanding of this issue.

"From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created" (Pesikta Rab. 152b)​

Romans 4:17 reads;

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV
​

The phrase "calleth those things which be not as though they were" has as its literal meaning, shown in the center column of the NASB, "calls the things which do not exist as existing". The same is true of Yeshua.

Yeshua preexisted in YHWH's mind and came down from heaven when YHWH spoke His thoughts/plan to bring it to pass. Also, whe the NT uses phrases like, "sent from God" or "sent into the world", or "came into the world", it does refer to his being a literal being in heaven that was sent into the world. Consider 1 John 4:9,10;

"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world , that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
​

A superficial reading would lead one to believe that Yeshua was at YHWH's side somewhere out of this world and eventually was commanded by YHWH to come to our planet which he obediently did.

In Psalm 78:45 it says YHWH sent flies upon the Egyptians prior to the exodus of Israel. Are we to believe that these flies were living in heaven prior to their arrival in Egypt? John 1:6 tells us that John the Baptist was also "sent from God." Surely none believe that John pre-existed at God's side. Notice this verse does not say "sent by God," but "from God." A word study of how "sent" was used in Scripture will reveal how YHWH sent many earthly messengers and prophets to do His will. None of them, however, preexisted in heaven.

John 17:18 helps us to understand the phrase "sent into the world." It reads, "As thou hast sent me into the world , even so have I also sent them into the world. " Obviously, the disciples were not living outside of this world prior to Yeshua sending them into the world. Neither should we believe that Yeshua existed in some other world before being sent by YHWH into this world.

"Came into the world" is used in 1 Timothy 1:15; "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Messiah Yeshua came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." The same phrase is used of all men when they are born. John 1:9 reads, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. " And again in 1 Timothy 6:7; "For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." So when Hebrews 1:6 says, "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of [Yahweh] worship him," it is talking about the Messiah's earthly birth.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Even if the verse (Mat. 28:19) is authentic

It (Mat. 28:19) is authentic, for God said that He would Himself, preserve His word, Psa. 12:6-7, and more.

Historical evidence in addition:

"- Tyndale's, Great, Geneva, Bishops, Stephanus, Beza, Elizvirs, CR.,

- B, W, Delta, Theta, Pi, Sigma, Phi, 074, family 1, 13 (by itself), 28, 33, 174, 265, 280, 346, 348, 565, 892, 1010, 1012, 1187, 1219, 1241, 1293, 1346, 1355, 1582, 1604, 2145 and many others.

- Von Soden indicates: Most Egyptian Mss., I eta (1, 22, 118, 209, 1192, 1210), I pi (N).

- Old Latin, c , e, f, ff1,2, gi, l , q
- Vulgate
- Syriac: Peshitta, Harclean; Palestinian
- Coptic: Sahidic, Bohairic-pt, Middle Egyptian;
- Armenian
- Ethiopic

- Cyprian, Carthage, Latin, 258.
- Hilary, Poitiers, Latin, 367.
- Zeno, Verona, Latin, 372." - When the KJV Departs from the "Majority" Text of Hodge & Farstad, cited by the Corrupt NKJV, by Jack Moorman, page 38

I am not arguing for the papal "trinity". I am only vindicating this text, Matthew 28:19. What it says is another matter.

 

[gadar perets]

gadar you have added words, such as "inside". The text of Jhn. 16:27, 17:8 does not say "from inside him". The texts says, "I came out from him (Father)" and "came out from thee (Father)". Did you do a word study on "came out"?

Exerchomai almost always means to go out of something you were inside of whether it be going out of a city, a building, or someone's loins, or devils coming out of a possessed man, etc.

in Jhn. 17:5 Jesus speaks of the pre-existant glory He had "with" the Father in that Throne.

Yeshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yeshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty YHWH.

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."​

Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yeshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times YHWH allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The glory that Yeshua had was as the slain lamb of YHWH, in the mind of YHWH, and Yeshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yeshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yeshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by YHWH glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yeshua in turn glorifying the Father.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Exerchomai almost always means to go out of something you were inside of whether it be going out of a city, a building, or someone's loins, or devils coming out of a possessed man, etc. ...

The Father is not a city, a building, a loins, etc. The heavenly Father is an eternal person/being, even as the Son is. The Son was ever by the side of the Father, even at "His right hand".

John 10:39 - 'escaped', meaning to 'come out from their presence'.

Mark 7:31 - 'departing', meaning to 'come out from that country/place', in other words to 'leave' the place and go to another place.

Matthew 24:27 - 'coming', meaning to 'leave the immediate presence of the Father (again) and to travel back to us' in the second advent.

Acts 10:23 - 'away', meaning to 'leave the area, and go into another area'

and so on (seriously I have like 41 pages on this).

The word, in the context of Jesus who "came forth from God (the Father)", means to leave the presence of His Father and come to us. It does not mean that Jesus was somehow locked inside the mind of God as an 'idea'. That blasphemes His eternal person/being (Heb. 1:3).

I came forth from my friend and was sent as his messenger to others. It does not mean I issued out of my friends person/being.

The Father and the Son both sat upon the Throne. Jesus came forth from this position and returned to that position. That you say that Jesus did not exist except as an idea, must return to that place from which He was before, since the text is parallel to itself.

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

To be 'brought forth' in these instances is to be called by the Father to be by His side in the work of Creation.

"In the beginning" and "by him" Gen. 1:1; Jhn. 1:1; Heb. 1:2; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; 1 Jhn. 1:1

"God" Elohiym (true plural, 3 or greater)

God said (the person/being of the Father speaks)

God made (the person/being of the Son acts on the Father's commandment)

God saw and moved (the person/being of the Holy Ghost witnesses and moves)

 

[gadar perets]

It (Mat. 28:19) is authentic, for God said that He would Himself, preserve His word, Psa. 12:6-7, and more.

Verse seven refers to YHWH preserving the poor and needy, not His Word.

Historical evidence in addition:

"- Tyndale's, Great, Geneva, Bishops, Stephanus, Beza, Elizvirs, CR.,

- B, W, Delta, Theta, Pi, Sigma, Phi, 074, family 1, 13 (by itself), 28, 33, 174, 265, 280, 346, 348, 565, 892, 1010, 1012, 1187, 1219, 1241, 1293, 1346, 1355, 1582, 1604, 2145 and many others.

- Von Soden indicates: Most Egyptian Mss., I eta (1, 22, 118, 209, 1192, 1210), I pi (N).

- Old Latin, c , e, f, ff1,2, gi, l , q
- Vulgate
- Syriac: Peshitta, Harclean; Palestinian
- Coptic: Sahidic, Bohairic-pt, Middle Egyptian;
- Armenian
- Ethiopic

- Cyprian, Carthage, Latin, 258.
- Hilary, Poitiers, Latin, 367.
- Zeno, Verona, Latin, 372." - When the KJV Departs from the "Majority" Text of Hodge & Farstad, cited by the Corrupt NKJV, by Jack Moorman, page 38

I am not arguing for the papal "trinity". I am only vindicating this text, Matthew 28:19. What it says is another matter.

Of all this "evidence", which is the oldest and from what year?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Verse seven refers to YHWH preserving the poor and needy, not His Word.

Jesus is JEHOVAH Immanuel, even Jesus JEHOVAH. See for yourself (these and many others; for instance read Hos. 1:4-7 for me, carefully, in English, Hebrew (and trans.) and LXX and in the NWT (if you have it available also, even if you are not JW), noticing the names and pronouns):

Psa. 46:7 (46:8) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

Psa. 46:7HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh

Psa. 46:11 (46:12) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

Psa. 46:7 HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh

Gen. 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

Gen. 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

Exo. 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

Exo. 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm

The "et" or "את" is the Aleph Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher, see Gen. 1:1 HOT.

2 Chron. 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

2 Chron. 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

Jon. 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

Jon. 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

Psa. 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

Psa. 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy

Of all this "evidence", which is the oldest and from what year?

You have a mistaken understanding in regards God's preservation; Psa. 12:6-7.

However, several are very old, and you may even consider the 'old latin', such as the vetus latina, which existed before Jerome corrupted his text (to which he admitted to doing (look it up)). Cyprian cited it around 200-250. However, again, old dusty mss, is not the preserved word. The preserved word of God, in English, is found in the AV, aka KJV, KJB (Psa. 12:6-7). Preservation is present and ongoing. God inspired the men, He also preserves the word. The two pillars.

You can find a fairly accurate listing on wicked-pedia-files of the Uncials here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_uncials

A listing in the links of the Minuscules here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_minuscule

A listing of the NT papyrii here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri

A listing of the codices here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codices

For the various persons citing, you will have to look them up individually, such as "Cyprian", etc.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus is JEHOVAH Immanuel, even Jesus JEHOVAH. See for yourself (these and many others; for instance read Hos. 1:4-7 for me, carefully, in English, Hebrew (and trans.) and LXX and in the NWT (if you have it available also, even if you are not JW), noticing the names and pronouns):

Psa. 46:7 (46:8) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

Psa. 46:7HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh

Psa. 46:11 (46:12) HOT - יהוה צבאות עמנו משׂגב־לנו אלהי יעקב סלה׃

Psa. 46:7 HOT Translit. - y'hwäh tz'väôt iMänû mis'Gäv-länû élohëy yaáqov šeläh

I'm not sure what this has to do with the statement I made about Psalm 12:7. The fact is, I am not the one who needs to read the Hebrew carefully. The Hebrew does NOT say "JEHOVAH Immanuel" or "Jesus JEHOVAH". It says, "YHWH of hosts is with us". "Imanu" means "with". There is no "El" in that verse as there is in Isaiah 7:14.

Gen. 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

Gen. 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

Exo. 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

Exo. 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm

The "et" or "את" is the Aleph Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher, see Gen. 1:1 HOT.

2 Chron. 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

2 Chron. 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

Jon. 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

Jon. 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

Psa. 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

Psa. 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy

You do a good job of copying and pasting the Hebrew and the transliteration, but your knowledge of Hebrew or what it means is suspect. "Et" is not "the Aleph Tau" as though that was Yeshua/Jesus. It is simply the definite direct object marker. The direct object is the word that receives the action of the verb. In Exodus 14:13, the word "salvation" is the word that receives the action of the verb "see"; "see the salvation". "Salvation" is the "definite direct object" because it has the definite article (the salvation).

You have a mistaken understanding in regards God's preservation; Psa. 12:6-7.

However, several are very old, and you may even consider the 'old latin', such as the vetus latina, which existed before Jerome corrupted his text (to which he admitted to doing (look it up)). Cyprian cited it around 200-250. However, again, old dusty mss, is not the preserved word. The preserved word of God, in English, is found in the AV, aka KJV, KJB (Psa. 12:6-7). Preservation is present and ongoing. God inspired the men, He also preserves the word. The two pillars.

Are you saying the KJV has preserved the word of God perfectly???? Please explain Acts 12:4 and the word "Easter" instead of "Passover". Please explain the KJV use of "the LORD" in place of "YHWH". The KJV is far from the preserved word of God.

Also, 200-250 is plenty of time for corruption to set in with the possible addition of added words in Matthew 28:19.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

... It says, "YHWH of hosts is with us"...

It is staring you right in the face, and it even comes out of your mouth, and yet no realization. Stunning (well maybe not that much, rocks are hard).

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

"Easter" instead of "Passover"

"Easter" is shortform of "EasterLamb" (see 'ester-lambe' Tyndale) and means "Passover" (time), as in every other place, but in this instance in Acts refers to an event after the cross. God does this all of the time, using differing words that mean the same thing.

Created, Made, Formed.

See:

Isa_43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

3 parallels.

We do it all the time also.

I jumped over the creek.
I leapt over the creek.
I bounded over the creek.

What did I do over the creek?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Are you saying the KJV has preserved the word of God perfectly????

Yes. That is what God said He would do. He caused the division of languages at the tower, and knows how to translate from one to another. I can point to examples in the OT and NT of this, from one language to another, and being inspired. Consider, Jesus in Acts speaking to Paul.

Please explain the KJV use of "the LORD" in place of "YHWH".

Love for God and respect.

I do not go around using my earthly father's name very much, but call him dad 99.9999 percent of the time. How much more for my Heavenly Father's name, which is Holy, Holy, Holy. I use it (JEHOVAH Elohiym) sparingly, reverently and in proper contexts.

The King James preserves the proper name of God in 7 places where it requires the name to be specifically present.

Gen_22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Exo_6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
Jdg_6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Psa_83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Isa_12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isa_26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

Other Bibles, like the NKJV ruin this and remove the name altogether. The NIV is just as silly in Exodus 6:3. I can point out that which are actual errors in other english translations.

People assume there are errors in the King James. They do not believe Psa. 12:6-7. Here is a small help - https://brandplucked.webs.com/kjbarticles.htm

The KJV is far from the preserved word of God.

People have said that for years. They are continually proven wrong. It is 400 est years strong.

Do you really want to argue with God on this? I am fully prepared to enter into this, but make another thread. Then in that OP tell me specifically what Bible/s you use and we will compare it/them to the KJB.

 

[Enoch111]

People assume there are errors in the King James.

This fallacy has been promoted in order to ensure that the modern Bible versions are purchased sooner than the KJB. In spite of that a recent survey shows that the majority of people who read Bibles read the KJB.

Could the King James Bible have been made more effective through updating? Absolutely. Indeed there are several updated King James Bibles in existence.

 

[gadar perets]

It is staring you right in the face, and it even comes out of your mouth, and yet no realization. Stunning (well maybe not that much, rocks are hard).

I don't use shabby Bible Study techniques as you do. YHWH was with Israel in Psalm 46:7 in different ways. He was with them through Moses and through the Angel of YHWH and through Joshua and through David and eventually through Yeshua. Yeshua was called Immanuel because God was with us through him, not because Yeshua himself was God. If you are going to use that kind of faulty logic, then Jehu was YHWH since his name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is he".

As for your post #250-251, move them to another thread and I'll be happy to address them there. I don't know how to move them so your avatar is linked to them. Just make sure the thread is in the Apologetics Forum.

 

[Enoch111]

Yeshua was called Immanuel because God was with us through him, not because Yeshua himself was God.

This is a good example of inventing your own theology rather than going strictly by Scripture. God was indeed with us (humanity) when He walked on earth as Jesus of Nazareth. And that's the reason His name is IMMANUEL. And here just one Scripture passage which makes it perfectly clear. There are many more, but if this does not suffice, nothing will.

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [Theos]

2 The same was in the beginning with God.[the Father]

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...

14 And the Word was made flesh [took on humanity, flesh and blood], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[charity]

Hello there,

The knowledge of God is to be obtained, not by reasoning, but by revelation; not by intellectual attainment, but by God's gift.

Our salvation was wrought for us by God the Father, brought to us by God the Son, and worked in us by God the Holy Spirit. It is a salvation secured by the Father's eternal love, by the Son's redeeming work, and by the Spirit's regenerating power. It is a salvation in which God the Father is the children's portion; God the Son is their title to that portion, and God the Spirit is the power to read their title clear, and to enjoy their blessed portion. It is eternal salvation; for the Father will never forsake them (Heb. 13:5), the Son is always with them (Matt.28:20), and the Spirit is ever in them. Praise God!

Whatever the word used to describe the various means by which God has manifested Himself; that He has done so at all is surely enough. Do we not tread on holy ground in discussing this subject at all.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[gadar perets]

This is a good example of inventing your own theology rather than going strictly by Scripture. God was indeed with us (humanity) when He walked on earth as Jesus of Nazareth. And that's the reason His name is IMMANUEL. And here just one Scripture passage which makes it perfectly clear. There are many more, but if this does not suffice, nothing will.

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [Theos]

2 The same was in the beginning with God.[the Father]

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...

14 And the Word was made flesh [took on humanity, flesh and blood], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You are reading the Son into the text as did the translator. The logos was not a living being that was a separate person from the Father. It was the Father's words/thoughts/plans etc. Verse 3 uses "him" because the translator put his trinitarian bias into the text. Major versions that preceded the KJV like Tyndale's Bible, The Great Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Geneva Bible and The Bishop's Bible all used "it" instead of "him" in that verse. The logos/word was a thing, not a person. It became the person of Yeshua when the logos was made flesh. Prior to Yeshua, the logos became earth, trees, animal life, etc., as YHWH spoke everything into existence. He eventually spoke His Son into existence as well. Capitalizing the word "Word" so it seems like the name of a person instead of a thing assisted in deceiving people. So did reversing the Greek word order of "and the Word was God".

Here is an excerpt from one of the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars (Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.)

"As we have said, word order is employed especially for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when a word is thrown to the front of the clause it is done so for emphasis. When a predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have, 'and the Word was God.' But in Greek, the word order has been reversed. It reads,​

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.​

We know that "the Word" is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: 'and the Word was God.' Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind: (1) why was θεὸς thrown forward? and (2) why does it lack the article? In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: 'What God was, the Word was' is how one translation (Revised English Bible) brings out this force."​

In other words, If YHWH our Elohim is holy, so is His word. If YHWH is powerful, so is His word. If YHWH is creative, so is His word. The attributes of the word of YHWH are the same as the attributes of YHWH Himself. Mounce is a trinitarian who does not put his bias into the translation of John 1:1c.

 

[gadar perets]

Do we not tread on holy ground in discussing this subject at all.

People tread on holy ground when they say the Son is God, or the Father, or YHWH, or the I AM, etc. It is all idolatry. I discuss this subject in the hope of stopping people from trampling holy ground.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Do we not tread on holy ground in discussing this subject at all.

Absolutely. Yet, even so, we must tread, with shoes off, and with hearts humble, teachable, seeking, asking for light. Ultimately it is a heart thing, and not a head thing.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

The logos was not a living being that was a separate person from the Father. It was the Father's words/thoughts/plans etc.

How do you explain this, and other texts which say otherwise?

Jhn. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Pro. 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Gen. 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Jhn. 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb. 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jhn. 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

These speak of a living person/being who was with the Father making the world in Gen. 1

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

People tread on holy ground when they say the Son is God, or the Father, or YHWH, or the I AM, etc. It is all idolatry. I discuss this subject in the hope of stopping people from trampling holy ground.

The Son is not the Father, but He is a Father, even as the Holy Ghost is not the Father, but is a Father. (texts upon request)

The Son is not JEHOVAH the Ancient of Days, but He is JEHOVAH Immanuel, the Son of Man, Son of God (the Father) (texts upon request).

The Holy Ghost is not JEHOVAH the Father, neither JEHOVAH Immanuel, but He is the Holy Ghost of JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH's Spirit. (texts upon request)

The Son has declared Himself as "I AM" (person of the Son), meaning, eternal life, having ever existed. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life ...", "I am the door ...", "I am the good shephered ...", "I am the light of the world ..." (John said He was the "true Light"), "I am the living bread ...", "I am the bread of life ...", "I am the resurrection and the life ...", "I am the vine ...", "I am the true vine ...", "I am the Son of God ...", "I am the first and the last ...", "I am Alpha and Omega ...", "I am ... the beginning and the end ...", "before Abraham was, I am.", "I that speak unto thee am."

No creature could ever say those things without it being blasphemy.

The Father and the Holy Ghost can also claim the "I AM", since they too are eternal persons/beings. It is an attribute of their eternal natures.