The Problem With The Trinity

[Enoch111]

People tread on holy ground when they say the Son is God, or the Father, or YHWH, or the I AM, etc. It is all idolatry.

Do you realize how totally nonsensical this is? To call Jesus "GOD" is idolatry?

And nobody confuses the Son with the Father, nor the Father with the Son. That is simply a straw man.

You have been thoroughly deceived by Satan, therefore you persist in your ridiculous responses to plain Scripture. The Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh. The Bible says that the Word became flesh. But you continue with rejecting Bible truth and calling it "idolatry". Even the early heretics did not go that far.

 

[gadar perets]

How do you explain this, and other texts which say otherwise?

Jhn. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The glory Yeshua had was in YHWH's plan of salvation as the "Lamb slain". He was asking the Father to bring it to pass so he could receive that glory.

Pro. 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

The verse refers to wisdom who is personified as a woman. She is talking throughout. You are reading the Son into the text.

Gen. 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

This verse does not declare two YHWH's anymore than 1 Kings 8:1 declares two Solomons;

Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of YHWH out of the city of David, which is Zion.​

It is a peculiarity that occurs in Hebrew.

Jhn. 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The one who called Himself "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 also said the following;

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

The "I AM" is declaring Himself to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Keep that in mind as you read Acts 3:13;

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
​

Yeshua is the SON of the great I AM. The great I AM glorified His Son.

These passages also show a clear distinction between YHWH and Yeshua. For anyone to say something like, "Jesus is YHWH" or "Jesus is the I AM" or "Jesus is the God of Israel" is unscriptural to put it mildly.

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb. 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Verse 2 implies God did NOT speak through His Son in OT times. "By whom" should be translated "through whom". There is only one Creator, Almighty YHWH (Yeshua's Father). He created all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24) by speaking everything into existence.
Verse 3 says the Son is the "image" of the Father. An image is not the original. An image of an apple is not the apple, but a likeness of the apple.

Jhn. 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Again, "through him", not "by him". Yeshua is the light that is now enlightening every man that has been born since he came. He did not enlighten men before he came as the Light.

 

[gadar perets]

The Son is not JEHOVAH the Ancient of Days, but He is JEHOVAH Immanuel, the Son of Man, Son of God (the Father) (texts upon request).

I refuted this earlier.

The Son has declared Himself as "I AM" (person of the Son), meaning, eternal life, having ever existed. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life ...", "I am the door ...", "I am the good shephered ...", "I am the light of the world ..." (John said He was the "true Light"), "I am the living bread ...", "I am the bread of life ...", "I am the resurrection and the life ...", "I am the vine ...", "I am the true vine ...", "I am the Son of God ...", "I am the first and the last ...", "I am Alpha and Omega ...", "I am ... the beginning and the end ...", "before Abraham was, I am.", "I that speak unto thee am."

No creature could ever say those things without it being blasphemy.

He is all that (except "Alpha and Omega"), but he is NOT the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. Simply using the words "I am" does not make one the great "I AM". If that were so, the blind man in John 9:9 would be the great "I AM" for he said, "Ego eimi".

The Father and the Holy Ghost can also claim the "I AM", since they too are eternal persons/beings. It is an attribute of their eternal natures.

Where are we taught that the Holy Spirit is an "eternal person"?

 

[gadar perets]

Do you realize how totally nonsensical this is? To call Jesus "GOD" is idolatry?

It is only nonsensical to those who are caught up in that belief.

And nobody confuses the Son with the Father, nor the Father with the Son. That is simply a straw man.

There are many people who believe the Father is the Son and vice versa. The entire Oneness movement is founded upon that belief.

You have been thoroughly deceived by Satan, therefore you persist in your ridiculous responses to plain Scripture. The Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh. The Bible says that the Word became flesh. But you continue with rejecting Bible truth and calling it "idolatry". Even the early heretics did not go that far.

The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts of 1 Timothy 3:16 is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent. Bruce Metzger wrote:

[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a)accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (United Bible Society, New York, 1975), p. 641.
​

As for John 1:14, the "logos/word" became flesh (became the Son). It was not always the Son, but became the Son when the Son was conceived in Miriam's womb.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

I refuted this earlier.

Where? Simply responding with words, is not 'refutation'.

He is all that (except "Alpha and Omega")

It is in Revelation, and in Gen. 1:1, etc.

, but he is NOT the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.

Umm, yes, Here it is:

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

JEHOVAH Immanuel appeared directly in front of Moses face, even as He did for Abraham (Gen. 17:1,22, 18:1,2, 19:24,27), Isaac and Jacob/Israel:

Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

You would make Jesus younger than the angels themself, even younger than Lucifer/satan!

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isa_14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Simply using the words "I am" does not make one the great "I AM". If that were so, the blind man in John 9:9 would be the great "I AM" for he said, "Ego eimi".

Context determines the use. The blind man never said, "I am the resurrection and the life ..." The blind man never said, "before Abraham was I am." (which according to your theology he could have, since the blind man was an idea in the mind of the Father (before the Father was a father) also, even as your 'logos', the blind man is just as eternal then, "ye shall be as gods ..." indeed...). The blind man never said, "I am the way the truth and the life ...", and so on.

The one use, does not negate the other use. Both are present.

Example:

Just because the texts mention 3 disciples, Peter, James and John, does not negate the texts where it speaks to 1, 2, 4 or twelve of them.

Where are we taught that the Holy Spirit is an "eternal person"?

The Holy Ghost was from the beginning as witness to Creation, Gen. 1:2. In Gen. 1:1, Elohiym is true plural, 3 persons.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Angels are also 'spirits', but they are persons/beings, how much more the Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH! Jesus in Revelation "sent his angel/spirit" Gabriel. That doesn't make Gabriel the mind of Jesus. It makes him the person/being who is an amabassdor for Jesus. Now think also for the Holy Spirit. He is sent, by Father and Son, as representative.

Notice vs 11 in like to vs. 10. "man knoweth the things of man", thus also for the Holy Ghost.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Yet you negate His being. Explain.

The Son came in the name of the Father. The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus. Yet the Holy Ghost is called the Holy Ghost of JEHOVAH. Who then is Jesus, but JEHOVAH Immanuel?

 

[brakelite]

John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
1Jo 4:14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.​

@gadar perets Do you think that your theology denies the following....obviously not, but going by your explanations previously it is clear that you are to some extent giving the concept of God sending His only begotten Son into the world, a nuance that the scriptures themselves do not offer. I believe that when the scriptures clearly state, not only in those quoted above, but elsewhere, that God sent His Son, then He had a Son to send. I do not believe I am being unreasonable, nor do I believe I am thinking merely in 'human terms' as you suggested elsewhere as your explanation of God having a Son after His own likeness and in His own image, having a Son as Co-creator, allowing His Son to lay claim to ownership of all creation and confirmed by the Son when He said, "I am the Lord of the Sabbath", sending Him into the world as His Spokesman, and absolutely and categorically declaring the Son's deity, as Hebrews 1:1-9 declare.
1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

[brakelite]

Do you realize how totally nonsensical this is? To call Jesus "GOD" is idolatry?

Particularly non-sensical when one considers that the Father called Jesus God a long time before you, @gadar perets , or I were born.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[gadar perets]

Where? Simply responding with words, is not 'refutation'.

Post#248

Umm, yes, Here it is:

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

JEHOVAH Immanuel appeared directly in front of Moses face, even as He did for Abraham (Gen. 17:1,22, 18:1,2, 19:24,27), Isaac and Jacob/Israel:

Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

These verses refer to YHWH, not "JEHOVAH Immmanuel" and not Yeshua.

You would make Jesus younger than the angels themself, even younger than Lucifer/satan!

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isa_14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Correct. Yeshua is younger having literally come into existence at his conception in Miriam's womb.

The Holy Ghost was from the beginning as witness to Creation, Gen. 1:2. In Gen. 1:1, Elohiym is true plural, 3 persons.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Angels are also 'spirits', but they are persons/beings, how much more the Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH! Jesus in Revelation "sent his angel/spirit" Gabriel. That doesn't make Gabriel the mind of Jesus. It makes him the person/being who is an amabassdor for Jesus. Now think also for the Holy Spirit. He is sent, by Father and Son, as representative.

Notice vs 11 in like to vs. 10. "man knoweth the things of man", thus also for the Holy Ghost.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Yet you negate His being. Explain.

The Son came in the name of the Father. The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus. Yet the Holy Ghost is called the Holy Ghost of JEHOVAH. Who then is Jesus, but JEHOVAH Immanuel?

First, "ghost" is another error in the supposedly inerrant KJV. A ghost is a "disembodied soul" or "an apparition of a dead person". The Holy Spirit is neither.

Second, the Holy Spirit is indeed eternal, but is not a third person of a fictitious trinity.

Third, let me ask you a few questions.

1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Messiah's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, "Now the birth of Yeshua Messiah was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit Yeshua's Father and not YHWH? The only way to understand this is through Lu.1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." The Holy Spirit is the power by which YHWH caused the conception.

2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.

3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.

4) 1 Cor.11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with God (YHWH the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?

5) Eph.5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of God." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?

 

[gadar perets]

John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
1Jo 4:14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.​

@gadar perets Do you think that your theology denies the following....obviously not, but going by your explanations previously it is clear that you are to some extent giving the concept of God sending His only begotten Son into the world, a nuance that the scriptures themselves do not offer. I believe that when the scriptures clearly state, not only in those quoted above, but elsewhere, that God sent His Son, then He had a Son to send.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
​

John the Baptist was "sent from God". Does that mean he preexisted as a living being with God in heaven until God finally sent him into the world? No.

I do not believe I am being unreasonable, nor do I believe I am thinking merely in 'human terms' as you suggested elsewhere as your explanation of God having a Son after His own likeness and in His own image, having a Son as Co-creator, allowing His Son to lay claim to ownership of all creation and confirmed by the Son when He said, "I am the Lord of the Sabbath", sending Him into the world as His Spokesman, and absolutely and categorically declaring the Son's deity, as Hebrews 1:1-9 declare.

Hebrews 1:1-9 does not declare the Son's deity in the Hebrew or Greek.

1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (YHWH did not speak in OT times through the Son), whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by (correctly translated "through", not "by") whom also He (YHWH) made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image (an image is a likeness, but not the original. A picture of an apple is an image of an apple, but it is not the original apple) of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (The Hebrew from which this is quoted uses "elohim", a word that is also used of angels and men. Since there is only one true Elohim/God and Yeshua taught us it is his Father (John 17:3), then all other elohim are lesser elohim than the Father. YHWH is the ultimate Elohim, the only true Elohim. Therefore, Hebrews 1:8 should NOT have been translated "God" with a capital "G". Our English word God can only refer to the one true God. Calling Yeshua "God" yields two Gods. Verse 8 should be translated, "Thy throne, O mighty one" or "Thy throne, O elohim" or "thy throne, O god", etc. Also, verse 9 teaches us that the Son has a God. That being the case, if we call the Son "God", then we have two Gods. It is so obvious that Yeshua's God is greater than Yeshua. That is why, according to 1 Corinthians 15:28, Yeshua will eventually turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and be subject to his Father for all eternity).

 

[brakelite]

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
​

John the Baptist was "sent from God". Does that mean he preexisted as a living being with God in heaven until God finally sent him into the world? No.


Hebrews 1:1-9 does not declare the Son's deity in the Hebrew or Greek.

1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (YHWH did not speak in OT times through the Son), whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by (correctly translated "through", not "by") whom also He (YHWH) made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image (an image is a likeness, but not the original. A picture of an apple is an image of an apple, but it is not the original apple) of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (The Hebrew from which this is quoted uses "elohim", a word that is also used of angels and men. Since there is only one true Elohim/God and Yeshua taught us it is his Father (John 17:3), then all other elohim are lesser elohim than the Father. YHWH is the ultimate Elohim, the only true Elohim. Therefore, Hebrews 1:8 should NOT have been translated "God" with a capital "G". Our English word God can only refer to the one true God. Calling Yeshua "God" yields two Gods. Verse 8 should be translated, "Thy throne, O mighty one" or "Thy throne, O elohim" or "thy throne, O god", etc. Also, verse 9 teaches us that the Son has a God. That being the case, if we call the Son "God", then we have two Gods. It is so obvious that Yeshua's God is greater than Yeshua. That is why, according to 1 Corinthians 15:28, Yeshua will eventually turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and be subject to his Father for all eternity).

Yes, most of the above I agree with, and for that reason, I reject the traditional version of the trinity. But take care not to throw out the gems with the dross.
I also agree that the Father is greater than the Son, but only in rank. But the Son is equal to the Father in all other respects and therefore worthy of worship of both men and angels.
And the Father did speak through the Son in the OT....
1Peter1:10
‭Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace ‭that should come‭ unto you:‭
11
‭Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.‭

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Post#248...

Again, merely responding is not actually refuting what was stated. Show me specifically where you refuted. Thank you.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

These verses refer to YHWH, not "JEHOVAH Immmanuel" and not Yeshua....

No. The Son of God is standing in front of Moses on earth:

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

JEHOVAH Immanuel appeared directly in front of Moses face, even as He did for Abraham (Gen. 17:1,22, 18:1,2, 19:24,27), Isaac and Jacob/Israel:

Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

Therefore, you say exactly what the unbeliever says, that the LORD (JEHOVAH Immanuel) did not appear. For the Father did not appear as is obvious from the text and other texts.

Moses was speaking directly to the Son.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Correct. Yeshua is younger having literally come into existence at his conception in Miriam's womb.

Again, that is not what the Gospel of John (and the whole of scripture, from Gen. 1) states. Notice:

John the baptist, filled with the Holy Ghost, witnessed saying:

Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Was John's testimony from Heaven or of men, tell me?

Again, two for a witness:

Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Jesus Himself testified have having come from Heaven, seen Heaven, and spake of it to Nicodemus, from having been there:

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Jesus Himself confirmed what John the Baptist said:

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Do you even know why?

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...First, "ghost" is another error in the supposedly inerrant KJV.

Mere assertion. No evidence. You simply decide upon your own that you dislike the word, and so throw it out. Do you even know the qualifications of the AV translators, their names, their backgrounds in languages, the excellent material they worked from? I do. I have the list, and they were superior in every way, to anything that is now called translation. I shall cite upon request.

A ghost is a "disembodied soul" or "an apparition of a dead person". ...

No. That is only a single definition, and not the original definition.

It stems from the Germanic 'gast', simply meaning breath, wind, movement of air, and also includes 'spirit'. In connection with persons, it means the heart/mind, the thoughts, or conscious breathing person/being. Jesus is called the life-giving spirit - 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Angels are also called 'spirits', but they have form, body, celestial flesh, 1 Cor. 15:38-41.

The Heavenly Father is called the Father of spirits (Heb. 12:9).

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...Second, the Holy Spirit is indeed eternal, but is not a third person of a fictitious trinity.

You say that the Holy Spirit is eternal, but not a person/being, and only something of the Father.

Please quote anywhere, where I advocated for the word "trinity".

You will find that you are attacking a doctrine I do not adhere to, in regards a specific definition, as defined by Catholicism. They are in error, and actually teach what you are teaching, 'singularity', but their theiology just comes at it from the other side of the coin.

Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence. Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Rev. 12:4], “child” [Rev. 12:2,4,5], “holy thing” [Luk. 1:35] and “holy child” [Act. 4:27,30], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a person and masculine. The wicked angels are also called “it” [Luk. 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc.], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine. Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc. Even the Father is designated in neuter terms, "one", "Ancient of days" and so on.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, always are working together:

Gen. 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

(Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH Immanuel] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth (Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth) and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also)

In Gen. 1:1 it reads plainly enough:

Gen 1:1 HOT בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

Gen 1:1 HOT Translit. B'rëshiyt Bärä élohiym ët haSHämayim w'ët hääretz

Elohiym is a true plural, meaning 3 or greater, not 1, not 2. It does not include the angels, and does not mean 'pluralis majesticus' (a late construct, that cannot apply to Gen. 1, even the Queen of England used it, but she believed in the eternal persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.)

The "את", "ët" is again the Alpha and Omega, the Aleph Tau, the "Word" that John refers to in Jhn. 1:1-3, 1 Jhn. 1:1-3, that was with the Father in creating this world and all things therein. It is also seen suspended between heavens and earth, with a spike, the Vau Aleph Tau.

Vs. 2, then includes the Holy Ghost, 'the Spirit of God', but do not be misled by the word 'spirit'. Angels are also spirits, but they are individual persons. They are also spirits of God, and some kabbalists go in the same error and make them elemental forces of JEHOVAH, rather than sentient beings/persons. The devil would love for this doctrine to continue, for it effectively erases himself from the minds of men as being a real being/person to contend with, and instead is a mere aetheral evil pervadence (even going so far as to give him the attributes of God, omnipresence, etc).

The Holy Ghost is involved in Creation as much as the Father and the Son.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

There are numerous such texts on the person/being of the Holy Ghost, designated as a distinct being/person from the Father and the Son. For instance, notice who the Bible said is speaking:

Act. 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

Act. 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Act. 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Compare:

Isa. 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa. 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isa. 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Messiah's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, "Now the birth of Yeshua Messiah was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit Yeshua's Father and not YHWH? The only way to understand this is through Lu.1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." The Holy Spirit is the power by which YHWH caused the conception....

You are not asking a question, but attempting to pre-empt with your assertion built in. It is not "the ony way" to understand the verse.

Here again, you misunderstand the word "power", and merely self-define it unto a single definition, as a 'force'. That is not how the Bible so defines the word, and though it can include 'strength', etc it is also used to idenitfy persons of high office, ones of authority, rulership, for notice:

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, angels, and men are all called 'powers':

Rom. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom. 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Eph. 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph. 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Eph. 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col. 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Tit. 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

1 Pet. 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all 'fathers' to humanity.

God the Father is the Heavenly Father. - Mat. 6:9, etc. (This should be obvious)

The Son, Jesus, is also our father. - Heb 2:9-13; Isa. 8:8-20; Jhn. 13:33, etc. ("Behold I and the children which God hath given me." & "Little children")

The Holy Ghost is also our father, in the New Birth, "born again" - Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. & Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The eternal Person, known as the "Word" and many other names, is the eternal "Son" of the Father. It is their eternal relationship. Then the Holy Ghost also becomes a father to the second Person, in "mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" through working of the Holy Ghost. This is how all can be fathers to us, and that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are fathers to Jesus. Notice in the verses you cited, the second Person is called in a new way, "the Son of God", in/through humanity, though He already was by Divinity.

The questions are not difficult in the least, but easily understood when scripture is prayerfully studied line upon line.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person....

Why would not including the Holy Ghost in a particular passage grieve the Holy Ghost? He is not like us, seeking His own glory, for He Glorifies the Father and the Son.

Paul is speaking by whose inspiration? The Holy Ghost:

2 Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Notice:

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Just as the Son, sought not glory for Himself, but the Father's glory, so too the Holy Ghost, seeking the Glory of the Son, and thus also the Father.

Furthermore, that there are places where the Bible only speaks of one person or two persons, does not negate the fact of the places where there are three persons (or more, like the disciples). For instance, Peter, James and John are mentioned several times just by themselves. Does it mean that there are only 3 Apostles? No. There are places where it only mentions one, 2, 4 or more apostles.

There are just such places that only mention Christ and the Holy Ghost. Such as Galatins 3:14, or in Revelation. There are places in scripture which only mention one of these three persons/beings (either the Father, Son or Holy Ghost in various places). Should we suddenly forget all the other places which mention the others? No.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

If as you claim that the Spirit is simply God (the Father) power, why would this Spirit need to search anything?

The Holy Ghost/Spirit is all through Paul's epistles. That He is not in the place you would assign to Him is no matter to me and you need to humble yourself in regards the scripture and how the Holy Ghost Himself ordered it.

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

There are many times that Paul ends the letter with just a mention of Jesus. Did he forget the Father and the Holy Ghost? No. They were already mentioned in the letter itself and the Holy Ghost is the personal representative of Jesus.

Peter does so include the Holy Ghost in his beginning:

1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All three persons are present in that verse. That it is not how you would have it, is of no matter to me. It is as God ordered it.

 

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...3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him....

The Holy Ghost's nature is not clearly defined in scripture. It is a mystery (currently) to humanity. God has chosen not to reveal that to us in the word, and since that is so, we clearly do not need to know that, but only that which is given unto us and our children. It would be sin to delve into that which is the prerogative of God, in the infinite wisdom to withhold from us. The Holy Ghost manifests Himself in differing ways through the scripture, such as at Pentecost, or at the Baptism of Jesus, etc. Whereas the Father and the Son are explicitly stated to have specific "form", "body", "shape", "image", "likeness", and "parts" and so forth. Therefore, words like "sitting" and "standing" apply to the Father and the Son, but we do not know how they would apply to the Holy Ghost, since scripture (inspired by the Holy Ghost) does not give us this.

However, the Holy Ghost is so represented near the throne, as the 7 branch candlestick is across from it, in the same throne room, Rev. 4:5, 5:6, etc. The Holy Ghost is sent from the presence of the Father, by the Father and the Son, as noted previously:

Joh. 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh. 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Ghost is through scripture identified as a person/being, as Deity, neither the person/being of the Father, nor the Son.

Mat. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Psa. 22:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Mat. 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar. 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Zec. 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

That is three persons in each instance above. We know this by the words Jesus spake, the prophecies (Isa. 63:3, "alone", "none of the people with" him) and the book of Hebrews (Heb. 1:3, "by himself"). He became sin for us. The father turned away, the Holy Ghost left, and all the people left. He, JEHOVAH Immanuel, God with us, the Saviour, did it, "by himself". No creature could ever do this, let alone take the responsibility for sin, but only Deity could do it, since all find their origin in Him (Col. 1:16-17, etc.) and was greater than all of humnaity, since the Son was the father of Adam (Luk. 3:38).

Act. 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act. 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Act. 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Mat. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mar. 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...4) 1 Cor.11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with God (YHWH the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?...

When you read the word "God" do you understand it as speaking of merely one person? If so, that may be where the issue is.

Consider the passage:

Deut. 6:4 KJB Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 6:4 HOT שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

Deut. 6:4 HOT Translit. sh'ma yis'räël y'hwäh élohëynû y'hwäh echäd

It uses the English word "God" to translate from "אלהינו", "élohëynû", but this is a true (3 or more) plural word.

Therefore, this would carry over in Paul's use of the word "God" in 1 Cor. 11:3.

Jesus spake on the cross, "My God, my God ...", citing Psalms 22, referring to the Father and the Holy Ghost, which turned away because Jesus became sin for us, even as Isaiah 48:16 reveals that Jesus was sent by Father and the Holy Ghost. Even as when Jesus returned, He and the Father sent the Holy Ghost.

Isa. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Paul, in Hebrews, refers to God the Father, referring to Himself and Jesus as God in Hebrews 1, citing Psalms 45.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John does the same:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

We notice that in 1 John 5:7-8, the three persons, work together in perfect harmony.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

...5) Eph.5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of God." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?...

You're only looking at a single verse that is why. How does one enter the Kingdom? Through the Spirit, which is cited in direct connection with the Kingdom of Christ and of God. See John 3 and so on also. See also the other reasons included in the other replies.