The Promised Land:

[VictoryinJesus]

I put this under debate because I do get first) it’s only an opinion, and second) many will disagree.

This is only sharing a perspective about what is happening right now (and has been ongoing) between Israel and Pakistan(did I spell that right?)

My husband said something the other day that I thought was an interesting perspective. As I thought about what he said, the more I agreed considering “brothers, why not take the wrong.”

It would be a miracle but what if Israel changed their mind and stood up to say “this is not the promised Land, which God promised to us.” And they left that territory demonstrating before the world “this is not our Land.” “This is not the land we have looked for and it is not the Land God promised unto us.” I get that leaves the question of where would the people of Israel go then, similar to where are the civilians of Pakistan to go?

But that isn’t the point. But Israel’s bold demonstration of “this is not the Land God gave (gives)to us.” “this is not the Land God spoke of, nor speaks of as “our Land”. “Take it!” (Imo) It isn’t neglecting the promise of God …because it is not about dirt but Christ. “Brethren, instead take the wrong.”

I get I’d have a hard time finding anyone who would agree but instead say stay and fight for what land God has given to Israel. Personally I would love to see them surrender it (.the dirt) and make the statement of the true promised Land God has indeed (not lied) given unto them. Would it look like failure for Israel? Would it look like weakness to the rest of the world for them to go shouting that “this is not the Land God gave to us!” To me…it would be the power of God standing with them. A proclamation that needs to be heard and seen that the fighting is over the wrong territory and Land. But, that is not to diminish the promise of God as being a real promise but demonstrating that God is indeed with them by taking the wrong and following Him out, where He alone delivers having made this promise “I will make even your enemies to be a peace with you.”

I get most if not all will not agree …but I would love to see Israel shout “this is NOT the promised Land.” yet “God does not lie that He gives us the Land!”

How do we keep supporting that the land being fought over …is the Land promised unto Israel to be given to them of God? How do we remain stern along with “that is the Land.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I put this under debate because I do get first) it’s only an opinion, and second) many will disagree.

This is only sharing a perspective about what is happening right now (and has been ongoing) between Israel and Pakistan(did I spell that right?)

My husband said something the other day that I thought was an interesting perspective. As I thought about what he said, the more I agreed considering “brothers, why not take the wrong.”

It would be a miracle but what if Israel changed their mind and stood up to say “this is not the promised Land, which God promised to us.” And they left that territory demonstrating before the world “this is not our Land.” “This is not the land we have looked for and it is not the Land God promised unto us.” I get that leaves the question of where would the people of Israel go then, similar to where are the civilians of Pakistan to go?

But that isn’t the point. But Israel’s bold demonstration of “this is not the Land God gave (gives)to us.” “this is not the Land God spoke of, nor speaks of as “our Land”. “Take it!” (Imo) It isn’t neglecting the promise of God …because it is not about dirt but Christ. “Brethren, instead take the wrong.”

I get I’d have a hard time finding anyone who would agree but instead say stay and fight for what land God has given to Israel. Personally I would love to see them surrender it (.the dirt) and make the statement of the true promised Land God has indeed (not lied) given unto them. Would it look like failure for Israel? Would it look like weakness to the rest of the world for them to go shouting that “this is not the Land God gave to us!” To me…it would be the power of God standing with them. A proclamation that needs to be heard and seen that the fighting is over the wrong territory and Land. But, that is not to diminish the promise of God as being a real promise but demonstrating that God is indeed with them by taking the wrong and following Him out, where He alone delivers having made this promise “I will make even your enemies to be a peace with you.”

I get most if not all will not agree …but I would love to see Israel shout “this is NOT the promised Land.” yet “God does not lie that He gives us the Land!”

How do we keep supporting that the land being fought over …is the Land promised unto Israel to be given to them of God? How do we remain stern along with “that is the Land.”

It’s not that my husband convinced me or swayed me but when he shared his perspective it was hard to ignore how much it lined up with the word. (Imo) the Land promised unto Israel being the hearts of people. All this antisemitism, all this hatred, all this rejection of a people. Have we ever considered the God may have promised them that when they recognize He is the Land, He is there God who fights the Spiritual war for them…that hearts may turn toward them and not against them? Have we ever considered that God may lift the blindness over the nations and declare them as blessed of God to open doors, taking down walls and delivering them out from evil? But no…the assertion is we stand with you to fight for an area of smallness when God has promised them a much grander territory of as the blessed of God to make them a great nation?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I'm not sure I'm understanding but this I will say....

Should we just stand up and deny and give over to others the promises God has made unto us also ?

Did God not promise Abraham seed would be immeasurable and that the children of Israel would have a land given unto
and is described in the OT?

He commanded them when they went in NOT to leave even an hoof & slaughtered even aged, the women & children. Does this make God evil ?

They have received much recompense of punishment for their rejection of the Messiah. Will this also be unfair when God rejects those who rejected his Son?

Jesus said and there have forever been ppl fighting over the things they want or what might not be theirs yet still wanting it.

Should we just give up and not fight for our freedom to worship God, for that is what's coming. Then they will demand you renounce him or give your life. Will this too not be acceptable ?

The word of God is to be rightly divided and whatever God has spoken will be done,be we agree with it or not.

 

[Rockerduck]

Thank you for your opinion. These are my points ponder.

Israel is God's chosen people, no other people can claim that.

The Jews without a country, for 2000 yrs,, still maintained their identity, that no other group of people ever did.

The oldest book in the world, the Pentateuch, says God gave Israel the Land and they occupied it for centuries. That's like a perpetual title deed, with proof.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Should we just give up and not fight for our freedom to worship God, for that is what's coming

fighting for the right to worship Him. Who can take that away? No matter where we go, whether we have bibles or not, whether we are imprisoned, whether buildings are closed for worship …how can anyone take your right to worship? I can worship God in my kitchen doing dishes. I can worship him from my heart by being thankful. How can someone take that right away from me?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

That is all you took from what I said.
To restrict anyone's rights is unjust. To give over to someone bigger is being bullied.
These things must and will come to pass in Israel and the world.
The end is near !

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That is all you took from what I said.
To restrict anyone's rights is unjust. To give over to someone bigger is being bullied.
These things must and will come to pass in Israel and the world.
The end is near !

That is not only what I took away from it. But I felt that was at the heart of it. (Maybe I was wrong) but making the fighting for the land as a right to worship being taken away? Is it not worship to proclaim “this is not the Land God promised us”? That God has something better In Store for us? I only wanted to share a perspective. Mostly that I’m not so convinced that is the Land God spoke of as giving to them. Which isn’t a bad thing in my opinion but a greater Land promised to them. I understood right from the start many would have a different perspective of that IS the Land God promised them. I knew its an odd perspective but it’s just how I see it. I still stand by the OP of God hasn’t lied to them but I don’t think that is the Land He promised them. Again…this isn’t to criticize them because I have seen the pictures of the people there. Real people. Real troubles. Real pain and suffering. I’m only suggesting God has given them and promised them more than that small territory.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ok. We are not on the same page.
Would you like me to delete my posts?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ok. We are not on the same page.
Would you like me to delete my posts?

Of course not! I love reading your perspective. I read some of your perspective on the antichrist thread this morning. I value your perspective. I value your insight, why would I want to delete whatever you have to say on this topic. Even if we don’t agree on everything, your perspective is still needful.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ok. We are not on the same page.
Would you like me to delete my posts?

I have to go to my moms today. I only wanted to share a perspective. And I’m thankful for this space to be able to do that. my point is anyone who wants to share their perspective that isn’t the same. I don’t control this thread..it’s open to anyone who wants to post. Even if it contradicts the OP. I never assumed it would only go in one direction….being controlled by only one perspective.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

So then you are not saying what God said isn't right and truth and should not be upheld.
In my heart I want everything He has ever said to always be true and everything and everyone a lie.
I'm sorry if I offended you. Thank you for being gracious. I would love to have that type spirit.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I'm not a nice person, am always skeptical, see only in black & white and have low tolerance and probably no patience.
Again,I apologize, and pray your forgiveness.

 

[Jay Ross]

Part 1

God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: -

God’s initial promises to Abraham: -

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said[1] to Abram:[2]

"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land/an earth that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in/through you all the families of the earth/ground/land [3] shall be blessed."

Concerning God giving possession of the land to Abraham’s descendants: -

Genesis 13: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/earth which you see I give to you and/, {that (entity)}, I will give to your descendants forever/for a long period of time whose ending, which is beyond man’s comprehension, is at the vanishing point, {of this particular time period}, in the future.[4] 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land/ my earth through its length and its width, for I give it to you/this I will give. "

Concerning the giving of a sign to confirm that God will give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants in the distant future: -

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."

2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land/earth to inherit/possess it."

8 And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit/possess it?"

9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

. . . . . .

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

"To your descendants I have given/will give this land/{entity/portion} of the earth, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates — 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." [5]

God’s promise to scatter Jacob’s descendants to the four-compass point of the earth and that in the distant future that he will gather them again to Himself: -

Genesis 28: - 13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land/earth {i.e. God’s kingdom on earth} on/in which you lie/rest, I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth/in my fertile field shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go/will protect you in all things, and will bring you back to this land/My fertile field;[6] for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you."

Part 2 to follow: -

---

[1] The Lord called Abram while he was in Ur (see Gen 15:7; Acts 7:2); but the sequence here makes it look like it was after the family left to migrate to Canaan (11:31-32). Genesis records the call of Abram at this place in the narrative because it is the formal beginning of the account of Abram. The record of Terah was brought to its end before the narrative of Abraham begins.
[2] The call of Abram begins with an imperative לֶךְ־ לְךָ֛ (lekh-l®kha, "go out") followed by three cohortatives (v. 2 a) indicating purpose or consequence ("that I may" or "then I will"). If Abram leaves, then God will do these three things. The second imperative (v. 2 b, literally "and be a blessing") is subordinated to the preceding cohortatives and indicates God's ultimate purpose in calling and blessing Abram. On the syntactical structure of vv. 1-2 see R. B. Chisholm, "Evidence from Genesis," A Case for Premillennialism, 37. For a similar sequence of volitive forms see Gen 45:18.
It would be hard to overestimate the value of this call and this divine plan for the theology of the Bible. Here begins God's plan to bring redemption to the world. The promises to Abram will be turned into a covenant in Gen 15 and 22 (here it is a call with conditional promises) and will then lead through the Bible to the work of the Messiah.
[3] The Hebrew Root of הָאֲדָמָֽה, H:0127, has the meaning of soil, and is akin to a fertile field/face of the land/world.
Genesis 2:7: –– 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
One could argue that what is being said here is that all the peoples of the world that occupy God’s fertile field/ground will be blessed. The flip side of this covenant is that all the people who do not occupy God’s fertile field/ground will be cursed.
[4] Another way of saying this verse might be: - “15 for all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described land will end.
[5] Please note that this description of the “Promised Land” given as a sign, is a description of the same land that God said that He would give to Abraham’s descendants in Genesis 13 for a period of time.
[6] Please note that God does not promise to bring Jacob’s descendants back to the Land of Canaan when He begins to gather them to Himself.

 

[Jay Ross]

Part 2

God’s warning to Israel that they would be driven out of the “Promised Land” and that the Temple would be destroyed that they worshipped Him in and why He will do this: -

2 Chronicles 7: - 19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My land/fertile field which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

21 “And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and this house?’ Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore, He has brought all this calamity on them.’”

Then after the iniquities of Abraham’s, Isaac’s and Jacob’s descendants have been visited upon the fathers’ children and the Children’s children in the third and fourth age of their existence, God gives them the following promised undertaking after the conclusion of the fourth age: -

Ezekiel 34: - 11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them to/into their own land/fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain(s) of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country/earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain(s) of Israel, {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain(s) of Israel {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

. . . . .

25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them and cause wild beasts [1] to cease from the land/earth; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land/earth; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land/earth devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land/on the earth, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"

31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord God.

Please note that when God turns once more to look upon the Israelites that He does not gather them into the Promised Land but rather gathers them to Himself and plants them in the fertile field of Christ. There is not promise that He will return the “Promised Land” to them when He gathers them from all the placed that He has scattered them too.​

Shalom

---

[1] This is a reference to God’s judgement of the beastly Heavenly Hosts who will be judged during the time that God is turning His attention once more towards the Israelites in our near future, around the year 2044 AD give or take a year or so either way because of the uncertainty in the understanding of the relations between God’s timeframe and man’s understanding.
Isaiah 24:21-22 speaks of God Judging the Heavenly Hosts in Heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and that they will be gathered, together with the kings of the earth and imprisoned in a cistern/pit for many days to await the time of their punishment.
Daniel 7:11-12 also speaks of the time of the judgement of the four Beasts, referred to as the four winds of Heaven in Daniel 7:2 that causes a manifestation of the four respective beasts to rise up out of the sea of humanity with the dominate characteristic of the four respective beasts.
In Revelation 16:12-16 we are told that the kings of the earth after the signs performed by the three foul frog like spirits when they went out from the mouth of the Dragon, the False Prophet and the Beast would be to assemble them for battle, on the great day of God the Almighty at Armageddon where they will be judged as Isaiah 24:21-22 prophesied.
Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26, that when the fullness with respect to time, that has been set for the Gentiles to trample God’s Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts, has drawn to its conclusion, after the 2,300 year period, and the subsequent judgement of the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved.
Ezekiel 34:28 repeats this same theme, where it points a second time to the beasts being removed from the face of the earth and not troubling Israel for a period of 1,000-years.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To a land/an earth that I will show you.

And in/through you all the families of the earth/ground/land [3] shall be blessed."

And through you all the families of the earth/ground shall be blessed.

east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth/in my fertile field shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go/will protect you in all things, and will bring you back to this land/My fertile field;[6] for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you."

Fertile …stands out to me.

The Hebrew Root of הָאֲדָמָֽה, H:0127, has the meaning of soil, and is akin to a fertile field/face of the land/world.

fertile…stands out to me.

Please note that when God turns once more to look upon the Israelites that He does not gather them into the Promised Land but rather gathers them to Himself and plants them in the fertile field of Christ.

I like what you said here “but rather gathers them to himself and plants than in the fertile field of Christ.”
Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, (fertile?) and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mark 4:20,


Matthew 13:21-25 Yet has he no root in himself, but endures for a while(a season): for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. [23] But he that received seed into the good (fertile) ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. [24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: [25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Luke 8:13-15 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while(season) believe, and in time (season) of temptation fall away. [14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection(Christ). [15] But that (seed) on the good (fertile?) ground are they, which in an honest and good (fertile) heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

^ unless I’ve misunderstood not one of those above speaks of that small territory of land being fought over. But instead the fertile ground that brings forth fruit from the seed of Christ sown is a new heart given of God?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So then you are not saying what God said isn't right and truth and should not be upheld.
In my heart I want everything He has ever said to always be true and everything and everyone a lie.
I'm sorry if I offended you. Thank you for being gracious. I would love to have that type spirit.

We want the same thing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God gave Israel the Land and they occupied it for centuries. That's like a perpetual title deed, with proof

I think we view Land differently.

 

[Triumph1300]

The goal should be to get rid of Hamas.
The majority of the Palestinians want to live a normal life.
It's Hamas and Hezballa creating the problems and the human suffering.
Those two radical groups have nothing else to do, but create problems all over the area.
Plus the Iranian dictators, in de background, feeding the fires.

 

[Jay Ross]

^ unless I’ve misunderstood not one of those above speaks of that small territory of land being fought over. But instead the fertile ground that brings forth fruit from the seed of Christ sown is a new heart given of God?

By Goerge, I think he has got it.

The parable of the sower is about the journey of a man as he walks through time from the start of his journey to the end. The interpretation is usually a literal one and because of this we fail to connect the parable of the Sower to Ezekiel 47, 1-12.

Shalom.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

By Goerge, I think he has got it.

The parable of the sower is about the journey of a man as he walks through time from the start of his journey to the end. The interpretation is usually a literal one and because of this we fail to connect the parable of the Sower to Ezekiel 47, 1-12.

Shalom.

Thank you for bringing up Ezekiel 47: 1-12. I’d not read it lately but revisited it this morning.