The Promised Land:

[amadeus]

I think we view Land differently.

Consider the following along with your view of the Land:

So, what then if the Land or the Earth is not planet Earth, nor is it that tiny land today designated by many as the nation or Israel, but rather speaks of a seemingly even smaller bit earth [but potentially greater?] with which God formed man?

Ge 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [Earth], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now is man an owner of the little bit of dust or ground or earth he occupies or is he merely a steward now and/or a potential heir? Could he eventually inherit... becoming an owner?

De 10:11 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Mt 5:5

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth [land].

Who among us is meek? What would, could or should be our inheritance?

 

[Jay Ross]

Consider the following along with your view of the Land:

So, what then if the Land or the Earth is not planet Earth, nor is it that tiny land today designated by many as the nation or Israel, but rather speaks of a seemingly even smaller bit earth [but potentially greater?] with which God formed man?

Ge 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [Earth], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now is man an owner of the little bit of dust or ground or earth he occupies or is he merely a steward now and/or a potential heir? Could he eventually inherit... becoming an owner?

De 10:11 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Mt 5:5

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth [land].

Who among us is meek? What would, could or should be our inheritance?

The Israelite nation became fixated on the "Promised land," which was a promised sign in Gen 15, that would confirm, when they had possession of that defined entity from the whole surface of God's earth, that in the distant future they, the descendants of Abraham, would inherit, as the Sons of God, the whole earth.

The defined entity by description, was the same entity that was described in Genesis 13:14-15. This promise of possession of a part of the surface of the earth, was for a finite period of time where the end point of this finite period of time was beyond the ability for mankind to comprehend. In 2 Chronicles 7:12 ff God warned that if the Israelite indulged continually to idolatrously worship other gods, that he would cause them to be scattered to the four corners of the earth, which concluded in the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when the Little Horn was given an army to trample God Temple and His earthly Hosts, which has continued since then, with many different nation armies controlled/influenced to do so, right up and including this present time.

The Three frog like evil spirits in 2001 came and did signs and wonders that was seen all around the earth as the signs and wonders unfolded, with the primary purpose of the kings of the earth to be assembled at Armageddon to be judged and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their final punishment.

As the completion of the 2,300 years of the trampling of God's temple and His earthly hosts, draws to its conclusion, we will see God's hand once more drawing Israel to Himself to resume once more their intimate relationship with Him as His Kingdom of priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among all of the nations.

In around another 20 or so years we will see the completion of this 2,300 year prophecy as given to us by Daniel in Daniel 8.

To possess God's earth, it requires that we enter into a meaningful relational bond with God where He is the God of our worship such that we recognise His fulfilment of His promises to reconcile all the nations of the earth to Himself.

The question is: - "Is God the centre of our existence or is God our servant where we expect Him to bless us when we do not deserve it?

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

I put this under debate because I do get first) it’s only an opinion, and second) many will disagree.

This is only sharing a perspective about what is happening right now (and has been ongoing) between Israel and Pakistan(did I spell that right?)

My husband said something the other day that I thought was an interesting perspective. As I thought about what he said, the more I agreed considering “brothers, why not take the wrong.”

It would be a miracle but what if Israel changed their mind and stood up to say “this is not the promised Land, which God promised to us.” And they left that territory demonstrating before the world “this is not our Land.” “This is not the land we have looked for and it is not the Land God promised unto us.” I get that leaves the question of where would the people of Israel go then, similar to where are the civilians of Pakistan to go?

But that isn’t the point. But Israel’s bold demonstration of “this is not the Land God gave (gives)to us.” “this is not the Land God spoke of, nor speaks of as “our Land”. “Take it!” (Imo) It isn’t neglecting the promise of God …because it is not about dirt but Christ. “Brethren, instead take the wrong.”

I get I’d have a hard time finding anyone who would agree but instead say stay and fight for what land God has given to Israel. Personally I would love to see them surrender it (.the dirt) and make the statement of the true promised Land God has indeed (not lied) given unto them. Would it look like failure for Israel? Would it look like weakness to the rest of the world for them to go shouting that “this is not the Land God gave to us!” To me…it would be the power of God standing with them. A proclamation that needs to be heard and seen that the fighting is over the wrong territory and Land. But, that is not to diminish the promise of God as being a real promise but demonstrating that God is indeed with them by taking the wrong and following Him out, where He alone delivers having made this promise “I will make even your enemies to be a peace with you.”

I get most if not all will not agree …but I would love to see Israel shout “this is NOT the promised Land.” yet “God does not lie that He gives us the Land!”

How do we keep supporting that the land being fought over …is the Land promised unto Israel to be given to them of God? How do we remain stern along with “that is the Land.”

Of course this begs the question: Who is it that is actually at the helm of the modern state of Israel, and Why are they actually doing just the opposite?

Are there no descendants of Nicodemus to come by night and ask the Lord "How is this not the land you have promised us, and if not, what is?" Would He not tell them the truth just as He told Nicodemus? Of course He would!

And if these at the helm of the modern state of Israel are not born [again] of the spirit of God-- who is their father? Did He not say who's sons they were? Indeed He did!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Are there no descendants of Nicodemus to come by night and ask the Lord "How is this not the land you have promised us, and if not, what is?" Would He not tell them the truth just as He told Nicodemus? Of course He would!

That is a great question “How is this not the land you have promised us, and if not, what is it?”

Just an opinion but would we be satisfied with His answer? “If not, what is it?” I think so. More than we know. But yet we fear the “if not, what is it?” Might not be as good.

 

[ScottA]

That is a great question “How is this not the land you have promised us, and if not, what is it?”

Just an opinion but would we be satisfied with His answer? “If not, what is it?” I think so. More than we know. But yet we fear the “if not, what is it?” Might not be as good.

Oh, no, it--the promised land, is much, much better--not of this world, but is the kingdom of heaven!

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh, no, it--the promised land, is much, much better--not of this world, but is the kingdom of heaven!

Oh Really!!!!!

God did not promise Abraham "land" as the translators have suggested, but rather He promise Abraham the whole "earth" that He created in the very beginning.

God's earth is much better than the piece of land that was promised just to confirm that the whole earth would be theirs in the distant future.

But then so many want a tangible understanding of who God actually is.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Consider the following along with your view of the Land:

So, what then if the Land or the Earth is not planet Earth, nor is it that tiny land today designated by many as the nation or Israel, but rather speaks of a seemingly even smaller bit earth [but potentially greater?] with which God formed man?

Ge 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [Earth], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now is man an owner of the little bit of dust or ground or earth he occupies or is he merely a steward now and/or a potential heir? Could he eventually inherit... becoming an owner?

De 10:11 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people, that they may go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them

Jos 23:16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Mt 5:5

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth [land].

Who among us is meek? What would, could or should be our inheritance?

I Love your thoughts John! Do you mean for example:
1 Thessalonians 4:4-10 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; [5] Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: [6] That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. [7] For God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. [8] He therefore that despises, despises not man, but God, who has also given unto us his holy Spirit. [9] But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another. [10] And indeed you do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that you increase (in these attributes) more and more;

I love your thoughts on “Now is man an owner of the little bit of dust or ground or earth he occupies or is he merely a steward now and/or a potential heir? Could he eventually inherit... becoming an owner?”
If I understand you correctly “That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;..” “to possess his vessel” could be as a steward, potential heir…could he eventually inherit, becoming an owner?

What stands out the most to me in 1 Thessalonians is “but we beseech you, brethren, that you increase (in these attributes) more and more” because of
2 Peter 1:5-8 For if these things (attributes) be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“Barren” does make me think of “earth” “ground” “land” and “nor unfruitful”: the parable of the sower, the seed, and the ground.
In regards to “barren” it is “that you shall neither be barren”. “Desolate” is another good word when considering “land” “earth” or “ground”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Of course this begs the question: Who is it that is actually at the helm of the modern state of Israel, and Why are they actually doing just the opposite?

And if these at the helm of the modern state of Israel are not born [again] of the spirit of God-- who is their father? Did He not say who's sons they were? Indeed He did!

Just an opinion but the world I think is at the helm. We are the ones who keep and support and encourage the narrative of that being the land or territory of what God promised unto Isarael. It is a narrative that enables and promotes even by most who read their bibles. In the news now, and has always been this encouragement of focus on asserting that is the Land God promised to Isarael. It isn’t only those of Isarael at the helm but it’s said everywhere even here on this board.

I do think it’s significant what is going on today. Still it would be a miracle but to me the exodus should be Isarael persuaded that is not the land God promised unto them, but He has something better in store. But then, if their exodus was out of the land asserted as theirs…where would they go? Would they be received of the nations or told to stay and fight for what belongs to them?

Just an opinion …what is encouraged is to stay and war and fight for the land God gave unto them…instead of offering them shelter, food, water and clothing in welcoming them to come out. Most of the civilians in the territory of Israel …are poor, hungry and tired. Worn out. Kept captive to a narrative…on all sides… that God is for this war that keeps repeating over asserting “this is the Land of promise”

To be frank…the world keeps them there under an ideology. (Imo)

 

[amadeus]

I Love your thoughts John! Do you mean for example:
1 Thessalonians 4:4-10 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; [5] Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: [6] That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. [7] For God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. [8] He therefore that despises, despises not man, but God, who has also given unto us his holy Spirit. [9] But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another. [10] And indeed you do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that you increase (in these attributes) more and more;

I love your thoughts on “Now is man an owner of the little bit of dust or ground or earth he occupies or is he merely a steward now and/or a potential heir? Could he eventually inherit... becoming an owner?”
If I understand you correctly “That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;..” “to possess his vessel” could be as a steward, potential heir…could he eventually inherit, becoming an owner?

What stands out the most to me in 1 Thessalonians is “but we beseech you, brethren, that you increase (in these attributes) more and more” because of
2 Peter 1:5-8 For if these things (attributes) be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“Barren” does make me think of “earth” “ground” “land” and “nor unfruitful”: the parable of the sower, the seed, and the ground.
In regards to “barren” it is “that you shall neither be barren”. “Desolate” is another good word when considering “land” “earth” or “ground”

Amen!

 

[amadeus]

The Israelite nation became fixated on the "Promised land," which was a promised sign in Gen 15, that would confirm, when they had possession of that defined entity from the whole surface of God's earth, that in the distant future they, the descendants of Abraham, would inherit, as the Sons of God, the whole earth.

The defined entity by description, was the same entity that was described in Genesis 13:14-15. This promise of possession of a part of the surface of the earth, was for a finite period of time where the end point of this finite period of time was beyond the ability for mankind to comprehend. In 2 Chronicles 7:12 ff God warned that if the Israelite indulged continually to idolatrously worship other gods, that he would cause them to be scattered to the four corners of the earth, which concluded in the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when the Little Horn was given an army to trample God Temple and His earthly Hosts, which has continued since then, with many different nation armies controlled/influenced to do so, right up and including this present time.

The Three frog like evil spirits in 2001 came and did signs and wonders that was seen all around the earth as the signs and wonders unfolded, with the primary purpose of the kings of the earth to be assembled at Armageddon to be judged and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their final punishment.

As the completion of the 2,300 years of the trampling of God's temple and His earthly hosts, draws to its conclusion, we will see God's hand once more drawing Israel to Himself to resume once more their intimate relationship with Him as His Kingdom of priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among all of the nations.

In around another 20 or so years we will see the completion of this 2,300 year prophecy as given to us by Daniel in Daniel 8.

To possess God's earth, it requires that we enter into a meaningful relational bond with God where He is the God of our worship such that we recognise His fulfilment of His promises to reconcile all the nations of the earth to Himself.

The question is: - "Is God the centre of our existence or is God our servant where we expect Him to bless us when we do not deserve it?

Shalom

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately, I am unable focus on and comprehend all you have written, so I cannot correctly respond to all of your details.

 

[ScottA]

Oh Really!!!!!

God did not promise Abraham "land" as the translators have suggested, but rather He promise Abraham the whole "earth" that He created in the very beginning.

God's earth is much better than the piece of land that was promised just to confirm that the whole earth would be theirs in the distant future.

But then so many want a tangible understanding of who God actually is.

Indeed, and yet whether land, or the whole earth, or bread, or stones, or temples, or water, or lambs and lions--they are all given in parable, not the actual, but mere objects (object lessons) for teaching and learning.

 

[Jay Ross]

Indeed, and yet whether land, or the whole earth, or bread, or stones, or temples, or water, or lambs and lions--they are all given in parable, not the actual, but mere objects (object lessons) for teaching and learning.

Where is Genesis 15:16 a mere object lesson or parable for teaching and learning? It was a clear statement of fact that 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, that some of Abraham's descendants would return to the Land of Canaan during the fourth age of their existence.

Sadly before 1948, people were not able to comprehend such a prophecy that was so far into the future from when it was given that they, in an attempt to make sense of this one verse prophecy, linked the Genesis 15:16 prophecy of returning to the land of Canaan in their own strength, with the Genesis 15:13-14 prophecy where God promised to intervene on their behalf to gather Israel out of the country of Egypt with great possessions to lead them back to the land of Canaan.

Sadly, Satan's fingerprints are all over peoples understanding of God's prophetic words that we no longer are able to see God's handy work today, just like the Israelites could not see God's only Son who had come to redeem the world. They could not comprehend God's handy work in Christ, His Son, who came to put in place a very different means of redemption for all peoples and nations.

ScottA, you love to show off your formed views on God's handy work, but for me you miss the mark so often, that you mislead many to the wrong understanding.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately, I am unable focus on and comprehend all you have written, so I cannot correctly respond to all of your details.

That is okay Amadeus. Our ability to be able to join all of the dots in the story of God's redemption of mankind to fit the actual reality of what He is doing, has been lost on even the most brilliant mind of our biblical scholars such that they too are missing the boat that set sail so many years ago.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

Where is Genesis 15:16 a mere object lesson or parable for teaching and learning? It was a clear statement of fact that 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, that some of Abraham's descendants would return to the Land of Canaan during the fourth age of their existence.

Sadly before 1948, people were not able to comprehend such a prophecy that was so far into the future from when it was given that they, in an attempt to make sense of this one verse prophecy, linked the Genesis 15:16 prophecy of returning to the land of Canaan in their own strength, with the Genesis 15:13-14 prophecy where God promised to intervene on their behalf to gather Israel out of the country of Egypt with great possessions to lead them back to the land of Canaan.

Sadly, Satan's fingerprints are all over peoples understanding of God's prophetic words that we no longer are able to see God's handy work today, just like the Israelites could not see God's only Son who had come to redeem the world. They could not comprehend God's handy work in Christ, His Son, who came to put in place a very different means of redemption for all peoples and nations.

ScottA, you love to show off your formed views on God's handy work, but for me you miss the mark so often, that you mislead many to the wrong understanding.

Shalom

On the contrary, I myself have never fired a shot.

Even so, you mock and criticize.

 

[Jay Ross]

On the contrary, I myself have never fired a shot.

Even so, you mock and criticize.

Oh my, such righteous.

Goodbye ScottA

 

[ScottA]

Oh my, such righteous.

Goodbye ScottA

More mocking (fruit)

 

[Jay Ross]

More mocking (fruit)

Again, such righteous on your part.

This is just an observation on my part of you.

If you consider that this is mocking you, then cover up as your skin will not be able to take the flaying you perceive that you are receiving.

Goodbye ScottA, this is the end of our conversation.

 

[ScottA]

Again, such righteous on your part.

This is just an observation on my part of you.

If you consider that this is mocking you, then cover up as you skin will not be able to take the flaying you perceive that you are receiving.

Goodbye ScottA, this is the end of our conversation.

For the record.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not sure why Israel would say this is not the promised land.

They not only would have to go against their own scripture (the OT) they would have to go against their own religion.

While a saved child of Israel understands the heavenly place is what really matters. It does not deny that the physical land was still given to their fathers as an eternal gift..

 

[Jay Ross]

I am not sure why Israel would say this is not the promised land.

They not only would have to go against their own scripture (the OT) they would have to go against their own religion.

While a saved child of Israel understands the heavenly place is what really matters. It does not deny that the physical land was still given to their fathers as an eternal gift.

Your understanding of the Hebrew Root Word H:5769 ‘ō·w·lām as an infinite quantity does not match what God later said would occur if Israel indulged in continual idolatrous worship where, when it is found in the Hebrew text, must be considered to be finite where there is a definite end point to the possession of the Land. In 2 Chronicles 7:12ff this is certainly the case.

In Genesis 13:14-17 God promised Abraham that He would give Abraham's descendants the prescribed entity of the earth for a finite period of time.

Genesis 13:14-17: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the earth which you see, {that (entity)}, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time whose ending, which is beyond man’s comprehension, is at the vanishing point, {of this particular time period}, in the future.[1] 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in my earth through its length and its width, for this I will give. "​

In all of the prophetic passages describing God's gathering of the Israelites to Himself, God's undertaking is that He will bring Israel back to a fertile field (H:0127) where Israel can send down deep roots into the soil and produce heads that give up to an increase of 100-fold gain in seeds. Christ also foretold of this time in the Parable of the Sower, that a time would come where the one broadcasting the seed would do so in a prepared fertile field.

In Ezekiel 34 God also foretold that he would separate one flock from another and then separate the Rams from the He-goats, which jesus also told His disciples would happen when He comes to Judge the peoples of the earth. It is only at this time that the Saints will inherit the whole earth as His Sons.

I find that this statement is very true: -



This claim is very pointed at the Christianity practiced today.

---

[1] Another way of saying this verse might be: - “15 for all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described land will end.