The proof of OSAS

[tabletalk]

Salvation is simply a process. I have been saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved.

In the end, if we are really faithful and trusting in Him continuously, He will help us overcome those temptations that keep leading us back to commit sin. God does not throw us aside. We do that to ourselves. The question is how many times will we do that and still really return to God? It should be a process of growth. Consider where Job was in chapter 1 and verse 1, and where he went from there.
He was called a perfect man.
What did he have to gain?
Why did God remove the hedge around him?
How well did he do then without that covering hedge?
Was he not growing closer to God by what he then went through from what was already perfection?
Can we do the same?
Should we do the same?
Must we be the same?

You said: "Salvation is simply a process. I have been saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved."

"I have been saved" is a process which has already been completed: a done deal, past tense, sealed in Heaven; a believer who is seated in the Heavenlies for all eternity.
And, yes, we are being saved and will be saved. Sanctification and Glorification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I've watched the videos, heard the stories, debated the debates but no one, not anyone, has ever provided convincing proof that OSAS is wrong.
And why would they want to?
Why is it important to tell someone that God's promise isn't true, but you have to continue to work your way to heaven to make it there.
The only proof one needs is the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

2 Kings 2:3b; "Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today"?
This is a question that Elijah asked Elisha several times.
And then Elijah went up to heaven in a whirl wind.
Question: How did Elijah know he was going to heaven?

Psalm 23: 6b; "..and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
Question: How did David know he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever?

2 Timothy 4:7-8; "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
Question: How did Paul know his fate and how did he know to promise the same to us?

The answer to these questions is being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
If you think you can lose your salvation, then maybe you can.

A verse in your own quotes tells us HOW we can lose our salvation.

You quoted:

2 Timothy 4:7-8;
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

If Paul is saying that he has finished the race and that he HAS KEPT THE FAITH, it must surely mean that the faith must be kept in order to finish the race.


Romans 5:1-21 -
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

It is through our FAITH that we are justified and have peace with God, if we lose our faith, we lose our peace with God.


Galatians 3:9 -
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

If we are blessed by our faith, as was Abraham,
then we will be cursed without faith, as the O.T. spoke of blessings and of curses, especially in the Covenants.

If Paul speaks about losing our faith, it means that it is possible to lose it; otherwise why warn against it??

 

[forgiven Wretch]

Salvation is simply a process. I have been saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved.

Care to share scripture to back this up?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

A verse in your own quotes tells us HOW we can lose our salvation.

You quoted:

2 Timothy 4:7-8;
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

If Paul is saying that he has finished the race and that he HAS KEPT THE FAITH, it must surely mean that the faith must be kept in order to finish the race.


Romans 5:1-21 -
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

It is through our FAITH that we are justified and have peace with God, if we lose our faith, we lose our peace with God.


Galatians 3:9 -
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

If we are blessed by our faith, as was Abraham,
then we will be cursed without faith, as the O.T. spoke of blessings and of curses, especially in the Covenants.

If Paul speaks about losing our faith, it means that it is possible to lose it; otherwise why warn against it??

Paul finishes with "and the promise is also for those who long for his appearing.
That's loving God, you either do or you don't.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul finishes with "and the promise is also for those you long for his appearing.
That's loving God, you either do or you don't.

Right. For those WHO LONG, present tense.
I love God, now, present tense.

I have to be in THIS state to be saved at the end of my life.
He who BELIEVES is saved. Present tense.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Right. For those WHO LONG, present tense.
I love God, now, present tense.

I have to be in THIS state to be saved at the end of my life.
He who BELIEVES is saved. Present tense.

Can you ever wake up someday and say, "I don't love God anymore, I'm through with him?"

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you ever wake up someday and say, "I don't love God anymore, I'm through with him?"

Well, after all I've been through and I still holding Jesus tightly close to me, I doubt if I ever will...

However I know persons that have abandoned God.
Now we have to talk about whether they were ever saved or not.
It sure seemed as if they were... Until trouble shows up and they lose faith.
Like Mathew 13:21

They're saved FOR A WHILE, TEMPORARILY, and then they fall away when trouble comes.

Jesus said this, not me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, after all I've been through and I still holding Jesus tightly close to me, I doubt if I ever will...

However I know persons that have abandoned God.
Now we have to talk about whether they were ever saved or not.
It sure seemed as if they were... Until trouble shows up and they lose faith.
Like Mathew 13:21

They're saved FOR A WHILE, TEMPORARILY, and then they fall away when trouble comes.

Jesus said this, not me.

Where does Jesus say they were saved for a while, and then lost their salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does Jesus say they were saved for a while, and then lost their salvation?

The parable of the sower:

Mathew 13:3-9

Then Jesus explains the parable in
Mathew 13:18-23

The Sower Explained

18“Hear then the parable of the sower.
19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Here Jesus explains the parable.
The seed is the word of God.
In verse 21 you'll see that it took root but it was not firm. We know it was received with joy and that means that the person was saved. Saved persons receive the word with joy. RECEIVED the word with joy. NOT just heard it. It was received.
Then when affliction arises or persecution because of the word received by the person, he IMMEDIATELY FALLS AWAY.

So he was not saved, then joyously received the word and was saved, then fell away and was no longer saved.

not saved
saved
not saved again

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The parable of the sower:

Mathew 13:3-9

Then Jesus explains the parable in
Mathew 13:18-23

The Sower Explained

18“Hear then the parable of the sower.
19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Here Jesus explains the parable.
The seed is the word of God.
In verse 21 you'll see that it took root but it was not firm. We know it was received with joy and that means that the person was saved. Saved persons receive the word with joy. RECEIVED the word with joy. NOT just heard it. It was received.
Then when affliction arises or persecution because of the word received by the person, he IMMEDIATELY FALLS AWAY.

So he was not saved, then joyously received the word and was saved, then fell away and was no longer saved.

not saved
saved
not saved again

I disagree.
I see these verses telling us the reason why people don't get saved.
Only the last verse shows salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.
I see these verses telling us the reason why people don't get saved.
Only the last verse shows salvation.

But don't you see that the person WAS SAVED in verse 20?
What does it mean that the word was received with joy?
In verse 21, what does it mean that it was ONLY TEMPORARY.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But don't you see that the person WAS SAVED in verse 20?
What does it mean that the word was received with joy?
In verse 21, what does it mean that it was ONLY TEMPORARY.

Love is received with joy.
True love is never temporary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Love is received with joy.
True love is never temporary.

Difficult to argue with that.
I'm a firm believer of that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Here Jesus explains the parable.
The seed is the word of God.
In verse 21 you'll see that it took root but it was not firm. We know it was received with joy and that means that the person was saved. Saved persons receive the word with joy. RECEIVED the word with joy. NOT just heard it. It was received.
Then when affliction arises or persecution because of the word received by the person, he IMMEDIATELY FALLS AWAY.

GodsGrace, I struggle with why anyone could believe we can be "unborn" of God. I read both sides. Still, it is not man's goodness that convinces me that Salvation can not be lost but the power of God to sustain it. Is the Spirit not able to maintain those born of God? I am sure you have heard it all before but here it goes:

James 1:18
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Of His own, He begat us with the word of truth. How can truth fail when it is of light? It is lies that fail. It is darkness that fails. Yes, we are called to be of one or the other...but God does it.

John 8:31-43
[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

A servant does not abide in the house for ever:
but a Son abides.
(If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered)

Again, God decides.

[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. [37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. ....
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

What is the root?

Isaiah 11:10
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 53:2
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

You keep saying one can lose salvation.
Again, how can you lose something you never had?

Matthew 13:21
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Matthew 11:6
[6] And blessed is he , whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Proverbs 12:3
[3] A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved.

Same as a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: the house founded on a rock could not be shaken.

But even God gives us the desire and strength and power to dig.
I get your argument that this relaxed mindset of, I can do whatever I want and still be saved, is not true. There again, I ask how can you lose what you never had?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, I struggle with why anyone could believe we can be "unborn" of God. I read both sides. Still, it is not man's goodness that convinces me that Salvation can not be lost but the power of God to sustain it. Is the Spirit not able to maintain those born of God? I am sure you have heard it all before but here it goes:

James 1:18
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Of His own, He begat us with the word of truth. How can truth fail when it is of light? It is lies that fail. It is darkness that fails. Yes, we are called to be of one or the other...but God does it.

John 8:31-43
[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

A servant does not abide in the house for ever:
but a Son abides.
(If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered)

Again, God decides.

[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. [37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. ....
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

What is the root?

Isaiah 11:10
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 53:2
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

You keep saying one can lose salvation.
Again, how can you lose something you never had?

Matthew 13:21
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Matthew 11:6
[6] And blessed is he , whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Proverbs 12:3
[3] A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved.

Same as a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: the house founded on a rock could not be shaken.

But even God gives us the desire and strength and power to dig.
I get your argument that this relaxed mindset of, I can do whatever I want and still be saved, is not true. There again, I ask how can you lose what you never had?

My goodness ViJ...
Everything you've posted (almost) would support my belief.
Am getting dinner up and then will return...

 

[GodsGrace]

You said: "Salvation is simply a process. I have been saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved."

"I have been saved" is a process which has already been completed: a done deal, past tense, sealed in Heaven; a believer who is seated in the Heavenlies for all eternity.
And, yes, we are being saved and will be saved. Sanctification and Glorification.

What if I walk away from Sanctification?
It is, after all, a process...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What if I walk away from Sanctification?

Who can walk away from the Almighty God? You give man way too much power and credit. Whoever God gives the Revelation of Jesus Christ; that one won't be walking away but with a limp. Light changes a person, no doubt. I will not argue with you that we should examine ourselves. Are we abiding in truth?

But, once saved always saved, because it is by His power and His power alone that we are saved. The LORD, the great I Am, establishes it by His righteousness. Walk away to where? There is no place to go that God is not there and once a person receives the Revelation of Christ and is born again of God; there is nowhere else to walk off to. That which is born of God becomes alien to this world. I may differ here: I don't believe it is a slow process of sanctification. I believe when it happens, it happens as quick and complete as natural birth. The question is when that birth happens during the "continue in my word and the truth will set you free".

For me, the grieving of the Spirit; a dog returning to their vomit, a pig returning to their filth...is man returning to "man can establish his own righteousness."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I would add; if I don't believe there is a drawn out process of sanctification...then once 'born of God' happens, it is finished. That is what you can't lose. We can know the word, with knowledge and man's understanding, but not yet be born from above. That is the part God has total control over. The moment that seed(Christ) enters fertile ground(prepared by God) and springs forth with life everlasting.

I'm sorry. I don't know how I confused your post to TT as a response to my previous post. Just now saw the actual response you made. If what I posted earlier supports your belief, I am interested in reading...

 

[amadeus]

You said: "So then apparently people who have been saved no longer have the choice to serve God or not."
Not true. Who said that, except you?

I was suggesting that some people who believe in OSAS are effectively saying that when they say that they cannot then lose their salvation. They have determined that no matter what they do they will be forever with the Lord. They no longer have a choice. They could not walk away from God if they tried.

I disagree with that position.

You said: "God wants people who when given another alternative choose Him because they love Him."
And they love Him because He loved them first. He really does change the heart. His people fail almost continuously in loving Him as He should be loved; but God renews their minds in Christ Jesus, they repent, have more faith, and persevere to the end.

God renews our minds taking us back to what men were before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and died. The renewal is not final salvation as I believe it, but rather a new opportunity to do it right and to walk back through the gate and eat of the Tree of Life. We now have the opportunity and all of the necessary tools. We must do it. God will help us if we ask for it, but the job is ours to do. Do we love God enough to do it?

 

[amadeus]

You said: "Salvation is simply a process. I have been saved, I am being saved and I shall be saved."

"I have been saved" is a process which has already been completed: a done deal, past tense, sealed in Heaven; a believer who is seated in the Heavenlies for all eternity.
And, yes, we are being saved and will be saved. Sanctification and Glorification.

So then we disagree. I believe that I have already said my piece:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:5-7