The proof of OSAS

[bbyrd009]

I disagree with that position.

imo the prob is that ppl are told they are saved after a little altar profession.
Scripture asks "who then can be saved?" But we debate "who then can be lost?"

 

[amadeus]

Care to share scripture to back this up?

It is not one scripture. For me it is the message I have received from the sum total of scripture. For over 40 years I have been reading. Now I read and prayer daily from three Bibles. There is no argument on this that anyone has presented recently that I haven't heard a number of times before with scriptures on this forum and on others.

As I have already quoted from Paul it is "God that giveth the increase". He may use you or me as spokesperson. All we can do is keep our ears open. If you wish to present what to you are convincing verses, go ahead, but there it is...

 

[amadeus]

imo the prob is that ppl are told they are saved after a little altar profession.
Scripture asks "who then can be saved?" But we debate "who then can be lost?"

Exactly so! People need to continue to pursue truth for the remainder of their natural lives until it is time for someone to shovel dirt onto their faces. We do not stop. We are to be like Jesus!

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

It is night for us yet? Have we finished the work that God sent us to do yet? I think not, yet some would stand on their plateau when the mountain peak is still above them

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If it is not true, telling what is true would be important, would it not?
If Samuel had told Saul as he anointed him King of Israel that as a result of that anointing everything would always be OK between Saul and God what good would such a twisting of the truth have done for Saul?


A misunderstanding of what was promised does not change what was promised.


A conviction from God does not necessarily equal salvation.


Elijah had at that time finished his course and God let him know it, but we have not finished ours until it is finished. We may have a vision of the Way of God, but before we can arrive at the end of our course, we must walk the whole length of it.

Paul similarly knew when he had finished his as we see when he wrote these words:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" II Tim 4:6-7

Their vision at the end became clear, but until we move beyond seeing as through a glass darkly, our end result is unknown to us.


Same answer as before. If David had a vision of his final end from God then in truth he could write what he wrote. Saying we have a vision does not make it so.


Already answered: Consider what Paul wrote here:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

When he wrote those words, he was still seeing through a glass darkly. When he wrote the verses quoted from II Timothy his vision had clarified to the "face to face". We can only have the same testimony when we see it as clearly as that ourselves.


No, my friend, you misunderstand the role of the Holy Spirit in us. It means that we have a new beginning, an new opportunity to do right what Adam and Eve failed to do the first time through. Jesus did not do this for us. He made it possible for us to do it ourselves by means of the Holy Spirit in us.

Jesus overcame the world of His own temptations. He was the first overcomer. To qualify for the promises to overcomers stated in Revelation chapter 1 and chapter 3, we must also overcome as Jesus overcame. Like Adam and Eve we can still eat of the wrong tree and die yet the second time.

I'm kind of surprised at all you write here.
You too are another who doesn't know if they'll ever make it to heaven.
Did God give us promises just so we could be burdened down with the heavy task of trying to save ourselves?
Hardly.
Your comparisons and analogies are not appropriate.
Using Saul as an example is poorly done.
Then saying "a misunderstanding of what was promised does not change what was promised".
A remarkable statement indeed, using Saul as an example.
What understanding Saul had or did not have has nothing to do with our salvation.
One could actually think you knew what you were talking about and believe you.
That's how confusion comes about.

You say, " a conviction from God does not necessarily equal salvation".
The conviction from God I'm talking about is directly related to the subject at hand.
And you use it as a general statement to confuse people.
Why, I must ask?

You make this statement;
"Their vision at the end became clear, but until we move beyond seeing as through a glass darkly, our end result is unknown to us."
This is opinion.
Prove it with Scripture.

So you say Elijah, Paul, and David all got spoke to my God before they died that they would make it to heaven.
What a convenient belief to fit yours.
But of course, Scripture says no such thing, rather, you have to read into Scripture and make it fit what you believe.
Hardly convincing to me.

I question your usage of Revelation Chapters 1 and 3 and closing with an Adam and Eve statement really puts a good touch on your finish.
I hope your rebuttal has a little more meat in it.

 

[bbyrd009]

You too are another who doesn't know if they'll ever make it to heaven.

ah, the imaginary party with Jesus in the sky, after you die, lol.
No "we do not yet know what we will become" needed, right

 

[bbyrd009]

A misunderstanding of what was promised does not change what was promised.

Word

 

[bbyrd009]

You make this statement;
"Their vision at the end became clear, but until we move beyond seeing as through a glass darkly, our end result is unknown to us."
This is opinion.
Prove it with Scripture.

we do not yet know what we will become

i got this vision, years ago, of souls in mansions, going to parties, and sorry for all that they missed,
bc God has a better idea, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I hope your rebuttal has a little more meat in it.

prolly he has enough sense to just ignore you now lol, and let you debate how anyone could be lost, while Scripture directs us to continue to contemplate "who, then, can be saved?"

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

prolly he has enough sense to just ignore you now lol, and let you debate how anyone could be lost, while Scripture directs us to continue to contemplate "who, then, can be saved?"

Four posts in a row and not one Scripture.
In a debate forum, what you say has no value.
Except maybe to cheer on your favorite team.

 

[bbyrd009]

fwiw i agree with OSAS, for Paul, at the end, that applies to him, then.
And for anyone not following Paul's path, Christ, John Baptist, Gandhi, anyone else born in grace or whatever, who walks into the breach like they did, prolly them too. But for those who've made a little altar profession, and that's it? gimme a break lol; have fun partying with them, i won't be there, not ever.

your imagination of a party after you die is a great expo of "thief in the night" imo, and this comes from a death-centered church doctrine, a Death Cult

 

[bbyrd009]

Four posts in a row and not one Scripture.
In a debate forum, what you say has no value.
Except maybe to cheer on your favorite team.

"we do not yet know what we will become"

"who, then, can be saved?"

"thief in the night"

 

[Helen]

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hello my friend.
I agree, that is a sticky one for me.
It is also a nasty one for Christians that fall. In my time in God, this scripture has been used by the Enemy to torment and destroy peoples confidence in a loving God.
Obviously not one of my favourite verses.

#1 ( and forgive me if you have seen me post this before... if so , just skip it) A dear missionary friend of ours back in the 70's..he was asked by the "Christian Literature Crusade" to come home to England and write a book for them about how he got free from and came out of Dawinism and Spiritism.
( his grandma dedicated him to the Devil when he was 2 yrs old. )
He came home, he asked us to pray for him and for him as he wrote this book for them.
We did, but not as fervently as we should have done. We had no idea of the battle in the 'heaven's' over this.
Very long (18months) story short.. month by month he was going downwards. Because he was digging back into his past and dredging up history and dark things ...so much study and writing took it's toll.
And the Enemy was angry.
Darkness started taking over his mind...and then the devil sent him this ( your) scripture. He lost hope in God and felt that there was no way of repentance back to the light for him.
By then, no amount of talking and praying could change his mind. He felt doom for Hell, we spent hours. He didn't last many months. Horrible.
#2 A preacher friend. Wife kicked him out because he felt called to South America on preaching trips. ( no big offerings or money making from those poor churches. No private jets or mansions for those preachers) She wanted the big bucks, kicked him out. He got depressed, while angry at her he went to an "Adult" movie.
He never, ever recovered. He moved in with us, he would quote your scripture over and over...we could not help him or break through his darkness...he believed ( just like Leonard did ) that he was now doomed for Hell. Both these men so obviously loved God, they were both heartbroken at the separation they felt from God due to what they dabbled in..( separation which was in their hearts, and a LIE from the pit...not from God) They so very obviously they were both repentant , but did not "feel" like God forgave them...so Satan convinced them of a horrific ending.
So, what do I think of that verse... I don't, I have seen it's damage..I never think of it!! It disagrees with so many other verses. That is why I am so against "cherry-picked" one off verses.

BTW, I 100% expect to see both my good friend in Heaven..they may have believed that God forsook them, but He did not forsake them.
Guilt and condemnation are the Devil's tools unto death.

Bless you Richard.

 

[amadeus]

I'm kind of surprised at all you write here.
You too are another who doesn't know if they'll ever make it to heaven.
Did God give us promises just so we could be burdened down with the heavy task of trying to save ourselves?
Hardly.

No, my friend, it is not hard unless we make it hard. If we give it to Him it is easy.

Your comparisons and analogies are not appropriate.
Using Saul as an example is poorly done.
Then saying "a misunderstanding of what was promised does not change what was promised".
A remarkable statement indeed, using Saul as an example.[/quote]
I am really sorrow that you do not understand. Keep searching sincerely and God will open your eyes.

What understanding Saul had or did not have has nothing to do with our salvation.
One could actually think you knew what you were talking about and believe you.
That's how confusion comes about.

You say, " a conviction from God does not necessarily equal salvation".
The conviction from God I'm talking about is directly related to the subject at hand.
And you use it as a general statement to confuse people.
Why, I must ask?[/quote]

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

You make this statement;
"Their vision at the end became clear, but until we move beyond seeing as through a glass darkly, our end result is unknown to us."
This is opinion.
Prove it with Scripture.

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:" Matt 12:39

So you say Elijah, Paul, and David all got spoke to my God before they died that they would make it to heaven.
What a convenient belief to fit yours.
But of course, Scripture says no such thing, rather, you have to read into Scripture and make it fit what you believe.
Hardly convincing to me.

As I have already made clear, it is not my job to convince anyone that they are right or that they are wrong. You speak loudly but offer no support to what you say. I don't ask you to show it. That is between you and God. We, all of us must grow until the end. If we do not, what will happen to us? What happens to the clearest and cleanest pool of water if it does not move at all for too long?

I question your usage of Revelation Chapters 1 and 3 and closing with an Adam and Eve statement really puts a good touch on your finish.

You say you question, but I see no question nor even an argument as why I am supposed to be wrong.

I hope your rebuttal has a little more meat in it.

You did not understand what I have said to this point. I will add nothing further unless you really want to know. Apparently you want to believe that you need do nothing more to receive what God has promised only to overcomers. He has provided all that is needed so that you can overcome, but you are apparently unwilling to pick up the tools and go to work and like King Saul you want to justify yourself instead admitting to your own errors. I do not accuse you. I believe that you have accused yourself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hebrews 6:4-6; comes up in every OSAS debate.
Nothing too exciting about it actually.
The verses here bring about the word apostasy.
Some believe apostasy proves a believer quit believing and walked away.
One can think of Judas Escariot as the ultimate apostate.
Then the argument goes that he was never really saved.
But the best verse that relates to apostasy is found in 1 John 2:19;
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, my friend, it is not hard unless we make it hard. If we give it to Him it is easy.

Your comparisons and analogies are not appropriate.
Using Saul as an example is poorly done.
Then saying "a misunderstanding of what was promised does not change what was promised".
A remarkable statement indeed, using Saul as an example.

I am really sorrow that you do not understand. Keep searching sincerely and God will open your eyes.



You say, " a conviction from God does not necessarily equal salvation".
The conviction from God I'm talking about is directly related to the subject at hand.
And you use it as a general statement to confuse people.
Why, I must ask?[/quote]

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15



"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:" Matt 12:39


As I have already made clear, it is not my job to convince anyone that they are right or that they are wrong. You speak loudly but offer no support to what you say. I don't ask you to show it. That is between you and God. We, all of us must grow until the end. If we do not, what will happen to us? What happens to the clearest and cleanest pool of water if it does not move at all for too long?



You say you question, but I see no question nor even an argument as why I am supposed to be wrong.


You did not understand what I have said to this point. I will add nothing further unless you really want to know. Apparently you want to believe that you need do nothing more to receive what God has promised only to overcomers. He has provided all that is needed so that you can overcome, but you are apparently unwilling to pick up the tools and go to work and like King Saul you want to justify yourself instead admitting to your own errors. I do not accuse you. I believe that you have accused yourself.[/QUOTE]
You haven't showed me that you can teach me anything, and you certainly will not listen to any other, so I guess it ends here.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It is night for us yet? Have we finished the work that God sent us to do yet?

Is it not night?
Philippians 2:15
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Romans 13:12
[12] The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Without light there is only darkness. Yet, we are no longer children of the night or of the darkness. But there is darkness and night.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Would that not be now? The night when no man can work? Does man work now? Or the Spirit of grace?

Romans 11:6
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8-10
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 4:4-6
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Without the work of Jesus Christ, it would be total darkness without light.
The night is now when no man can work, but Spirit.

 

[amadeus]

You haven't showed me that you can teach me anything, and you certainly will not listen to any other, so I guess it ends here.

No, I am not your teacher or anyone's unless they have opened their heart and God has given me words for them. As to listening, I do try to listen to whatever God is saying through whatever means He has chosen to speak.

Leave it there then in God's hands.

 

[amadeus]

Is it not night?
Philippians 2:15
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

There is darkness all of around us, but if there is Light it is in ourselves or in the people we know and see who have really met the Master and are eating of His flesh and His blood.

Jesus said:

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

Then he also said:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

And he also said:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

No matter how much darkness is around us, if we are the Light of the world now, it is not completely dark, is it?

Romans 13:12
[12] The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Without light there is only darkness. Yet, we are no longer children of the night or of the darkness. But there is darkness and night.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Would that not be now? The night when no man can work? Does man work now? Or the Spirit of grace?

We work by and through the Spirit within us or what would get done? We preach or teach or work in a physical world of men that needs something that is NOT to be found in the darkness, something that is NOT physical. We are the Light now. A Bible alone is NOT light. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He had the scroll of Isaiah, but was unable to understand what he read until Philip, one who had Light, one who had the Holy Spirit, came to make it clear. It is God who is still working. He is working in people filled with His Spirit and obedient to His Word. The works that accomplish and nothing and can accomplish nothing and which are to be avoided are the works of men. People who bear titles and positions in what they call churches work without Light and without Spirit. That is the work that is opposed to God.

Romans 11:6
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again no more the works of men, even though on the surface it may appear to be God's work. If He is leading and guiding the workers, it is not His work. We can only do God's work through faith:

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20
Is it not by faith in God that we receive the grace to accomplish God's work.

Ephesians 2:8-10
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith itself comes to us from God. When we begin to walk in that faith then His grace is there to accomplish through us God's work. It is not our work even though it may be accomplished through our mouth or with our hands as they are directed by God:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

2 Corinthians 4:4-6
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [5] For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Without the work of Jesus Christ, it would be total darkness without light.
The night is now when no man can work, but Spirit.

But the Light which is Jesus is here now only in us. It is not the old man who is to work, but the new man in us. A house with no electricity and having all of the doors closes and curtain pulled tightly over the windows is dark indeed. But... if the man of the house opens his door to God's knock and you are there at that opening door full of Light what will begin to happen as your Light shines through that door?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Addressing the thread. Why do we try to corrupt Salvation: claiming it must not be secure and can be lost? Rather than acknowledge man for what man is: a liar? Man made a liar when he says he is born of God, yet he remains in darkness? We don't question man. We question God. I said I was saved and was "born again" since I was ten years old. But I was a liar. I remained in darkness. Did I have Salvation and then lost it? No, Salvation wasn't the problem...I was the problem. I was so deceived that I did not even realize I was in darkness. Like many. I was the liar. Not God.

Isaiah 55:11
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

James 1:18
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Man's complaint and doubt, here we go back into the wilderness: He is not able to bring us into the promised land.

Deuteronomy 9:28
[28] Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.

The flesh failed.
So now the Spirit fails also and God is made a liar? God is made a liar before the land (the world) He brought us out of?? I don't think so. Galatians 2:21 [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

How can you frustrate the grace of God?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is darkness all of around us, but if there is Light it is in ourselves or in the people we know and see who have really met the Master and are eating of His flesh and His blood.

Jesus said:

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

Then he also said:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

And he also said:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

No matter how much darkness is around us, if we are the Light of the world now, it is not completely dark, is it?



We work by and through the Spirit within us or what would get done? We preach or teach or work in a physical world of men that needs something that is NOT to be found in the darkness, something that is NOT physical. We are the Light now. A Bible alone is NOT light. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He had the scroll of Isaiah, but was unable to understand what he read until Philip, one who had Light, one who had the Holy Spirit, came to make it clear. It is God who is still working. He is working in people filled with His Spirit and obedient to His Word. The works that accomplish and nothing and can accomplish nothing and which are to be avoided are the works of men. People who bear titles and positions in what they call churches work without Light and without Spirit. That is the work that is opposed to God.


Again no more the works of men, even though on the surface it may appear to be God's work. If He is leading and guiding the workers, it is not His work. We can only do God's work through faith:

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20
Is it not by faith in God that we receive the grace to accomplish God's work.



The faith itself comes to us from God. When we begin to walk in that faith then His grace is there to accomplish through us God's work. It is not our work even though it may be accomplished through our mouth or with our hands as they are directed by God:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23



But the Light which is Jesus is here now only in us. It is not the old man who is to work, but the new man in us. A house with no electricity and having all of the doors closes and curtain pulled tightly over the windows is dark indeed. But... if the man of the house opens his door to God's knock and you are there at that opening door full of Light what will begin to happen as your Light shines through that door?

I do value your input and will read over all that you have shared, and consider it. Thank you for taking the time to respond.