The proof of OSAS

[bbyrd009]

Care to share scripture to back this up?

18so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us.

 

[bbyrd009]

Apparently you want to believe that you need do nothing more to receive what God has promised only to overcomers.

^

You say you question, but I see no question nor even an argument as why I am supposed to be wrong.

^
doubt this will generate one either i guess

 

[Richard_oti]

Hello my friend.
I agree, that is a sticky one for me.

I do understand. But it was also said / written: because of the increase of iniquity the love of many would grow cold. Paul wrote that the mystery of iniquity had already begun even in his day.

It is also a nasty one for Christians that fall. In my time in God, this scripture has been used by the Enemy to torment and destroy peoples confidence in a loving God.
Obviously not one of my favourite verses.

Understood. As I explained to you in the "Raise the Dead" thread, I struggled with certain things when I came upon them. I also could not understand nor fathom the love of anyone growing cold. But I have perhaps "matured" enough to understand it. I recall the first time in "ministry" when one was "lost", I still grieve over that one from time to time. We have both seen some walk or turn away in our lives. I for one, hold out hope. But is it the fool's hope of an ol' fool?

#1 ( and forgive me if you have seen me post this before... if so , just skip it) A dear missionary friend of ours back in the 70's..he was asked by the "Christian Literature Crusade" to come home to England and write a book for them about how he got free from and came out of Dawinism and Spiritism.
( his grandma dedicated him to the Devil when he was 2 yrs old. )
He came home, he asked us to pray for him and for him as he wrote this book for them.
We did, but not as fervently as we should have done. We had no idea of the battle in the 'heaven's' over this.
Very long (18months) story short.. month by month he was going downwards. Because he was digging back into his past and dredging up history and dark things ...so much study and writing took it's toll.
And the Enemy was angry.
Darkness started taking over his mind...and then the devil sent him this ( your) scripture. He lost hope in God and felt that there was no way of repentance back to the light for him.
By then, no amount of talking and praying could change his mind. He felt doom for Hell, we spent hours. He didn't last many months. Horrible.

I do understand. I also have lost dearly loved brethren.

#2 A preacher friend. Wife kicked him out because he felt called to South America on preaching trips. ( no big offerings or money making from those poor churches. No private jets or mansions for those preachers) She wanted the big bucks, kicked him out. He got depressed, while angry at her he went to an "Adult" movie.
He never, ever recovered. He moved in with us, he would quote your scripture over and over...we could not help him or break through his darkness...he believed ( just like Leonard did ) that he was now doomed for Hell. Both these men so obviously loved God, they were both heartbroken at the separation they felt from God due to what they dabbled in..( separation which was in their hearts, and a LIE from the pit...not from God) They so very obviously they were both repentant , but did not "feel" like God forgave them...so Satan convinced them of a horrific ending.

That is sad. He stumbled in his anger. Much different than walking away, or choosing to remain in habitual or persistent willful sin.

So, what do I think of that verse... I don't, I have seen it's damage..I never think of it!! It disagrees with so many other verses. That is why I am so against "cherry-picked" one off verses.

Understood. But like our good friend @amadeus, I still believe that "God" loves us enough, that while it may pain Him, he will also us to walk away if we so choose.

That doesn't however mean that He won't attempt to call us back.

BTW, I 100% expect to see both my good friend in Heaven..they may have believed that God forsook them, but He did not forsake them.
Guilt and condemnation are the Devil's tools unto death.

See, I don't believe that "God" forsakes us. I believe that if any forsaking is done, it is we who forsake "God". We must also be wary of the adversaries traps. As you may know, I was sent unto the "cults" [not LDS, JW, SDA types as some would call them, I don't consider them real "cults"], but those more like the movie "Savage Messiah". I encountered some of those "leaders" with real ... shall we say "power". I remember the first time my wife witnessed the casting out of a demon from one out of one of those cults. Scared her bad, I thought she was going to leave me, for she had never witnessed such before.

Bless you Richard.

And you also Helen.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There is darkness all of around us, but if there is Light it is in ourselves or in the people we know and see who have really met the Master and are eating of His flesh and His blood.

Jesus said:

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

Then he also said:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

And he also said:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

No matter how much darkness is around us, if we are the Light of the world now, it is not completely dark, is it?



We work by and through the Spirit within us or what would get done? We preach or teach or work in a physical world of men that needs something that is NOT to be found in the darkness, something that is NOT physical. We are the Light now. A Bible alone is NOT light. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He had the scroll of Isaiah, but was unable to understand what he read until Philip, one who had Light, one who had the Holy Spirit, came to make it clear. It is God who is still working. He is working in people filled with His Spirit and obedient to His Word. The works that accomplish and nothing and can accomplish nothing and which are to be avoided are the works of men. People who bear titles and positions in what they call churches work without Light and without Spirit. That is the work that is opposed to God.


Again no more the works of men, even though on the surface it may appear to be God's work. If He is leading and guiding the workers, it is not His work. We can only do God's work through faith:

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20
Is it not by faith in God that we receive the grace to accomplish God's work.



The faith itself comes to us from God. When we begin to walk in that faith then His grace is there to accomplish through us God's work. It is not our work even though it may be accomplished through our mouth or with our hands as they are directed by God:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23



But the Light which is Jesus is here now only in us. It is not the old man who is to work, but the new man in us. A house with no electricity and having all of the doors closes and curtain pulled tightly over the windows is dark indeed. But... if the man of the house opens his door to God's knock and you are there at that opening door full of Light what will begin to happen as your Light shines through that door?

If you don't mind, a few questions?

1 Peter 1:4-5
[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Reserved in heaven?
To be revealed in the last time?

One would assume Salvation(to those who it is reserved for) is "kept by the power of God" and "reserved" in heaven which means it is not in our possession yet. A table is set, a place card set for the seats that are taken, and these "reserved" seats, are "kept by the power of God." So, why do we already say we are saved and Salvation, but not glorification? If both are after we finish the course, and as the arguments here: maintain our faith to the end? This would explain Paul running a race to obtain the prise (Christ) at the finish. If that is the case then, those turning away before the finish line would not lose Salvation, but rather they never obtain it to begin with. Would that not mean that no one has Salvation yet, but have HOPE of Salvation.

Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do understand. I also have lost dearly loved brethren.

i was trying to form an answer to the previous post, where you guys were talking about this, but i see you have done it for me. You have lost them, is perhaps the operative way to perceive that. It was impossible to renew them at the time. And of course our image of them remains as they were, but this is likely not where they are right now.

We get the same impression...oh, when we follow Jacob, about Esau, we get the same impression, imo. Wouldn't wanna be that guy

 

[bbyrd009]

So, what do I think of that verse... I don't, I have seen it's damage..I never think of it!! It disagrees with so many other verses.

the passage is a trap, no one who has tasted good fruit wants bad fruit after that, and your next sentence is what the trap is really all about imo, it isn't really about them at all, but the response of those left:

BTW, I 100% expect to see both my good friend in Heaven..they may have believed that God forsook them, but He did not forsake them.

note the difference in this and the standard response, which might be summarized as "to hell with them."

i wish i was better at this, but i'm still to new to it, but regardless you might see how the passage is really installed for those left. Iow we think we are reading about those who have fallen away, right, but what might really be going on is a seeker decided they were not interested in the more legalistic model they were being led into, and just left, because they were not feeling forgiveness, and those left are the ones targeted by the passage, even though this is not obvious; but their response is different from yours as a rule, right?

or to put that another way, if your pov had held more sway at the time, they might still even be there?

It is also a nasty one for Christians that fall. In my time in God, this scripture has been used by the Enemy to torment and destroy peoples confidence in a loving God.

bada bing

 

[bbyrd009]

Did God give us promises just so we could be burdened down with the heavy task of trying to save ourselves?
Hardly.

seek your own salvation is not an accident though, wadr. It just becomes more difficult after being raised with a bad def of "believe on Jesus." The heavy task is "pick up your cross," see, and it has been written out of Western Christianity, particularly in the Bible Belt

 

[Richard_oti]

i was trying to form an answer to the previous post, where you guys were talking about this, but i see you have done it for me. You have lost them, is perhaps the operative way to perceive that. It was impossible to renew them at the time. And of course our image of them remains as they were, but this is likely not where they are right now.

We get the same impression...oh, when we follow Jacob, about Esau, we get the same impression, imo. Wouldn't wanna be that guy

Yeah, there is no knowing where they are now. I remember one in particular as he was, and as he became that last I knew. He found Durin's Bain and was lost in Moria. That verse, had nothing to do with it. However if the verse is true ...

Another, through disillusionment. Which I understood at the time. Thus, the verse did not really apply.

However, there are some cases.

But I agree with you, it serves more as a warning unto those left.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, there is no knowing where they are now.

imo the Book revisits Esau, and we get an account of what happened to him--after all it was Jacob that left, and Esau got the inheritance anyway, the physical one at least, right

 

[bbyrd009]

But I agree with you, it serves more as a warning unto those left.

unto? How would you frame this warning that you perceive? Why was Jacob approaching Esau in fear, do you think?

 

[amadeus]

If you don't mind, a few questions?

1 Peter 1:4-5
[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Reserved in heaven?
To be revealed in the last time?

One would assume Salvation(to those who it is reserved for) is "kept by the power of God" and "reserved" in heaven which means it is not in our possession yet. A table is set, a place card set for the seats that are taken, and these "reserved" seats, are "kept by the power of God." So, why do we already say we are saved and Salvation, but not glorification? If both are after we finish the course, and as the arguments here: maintain our faith to the end? This would explain Paul running a race to obtain the prise (Christ) at the finish. If that is the case then, those turning away before the finish line would not lose Salvation, but rather they never obtain it to begin with. Would that not mean that no one has Salvation yet, but have HOPE of Salvation.

Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

I usually try to avoid saying "I am saved" without a clarification that it is not a final and complete salvation yet. God has definitely already saved me from many things, both before I was actively striving to serve Him and since I became actively involved. For me since time remains, the final conclusion is still on hold.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So what you're really saying is that you aren't saved.
It's like saying, "I own my house but I still have a mortgage on it".
Well,you don't really own that house because you may never pay it off.
How many years in purgatory are we talking here?

 

[DPMartin]

So what you're really saying is that you aren't saved.
It's like saying, "I own my house but I still have a mortgage on it".
Well,you don't really own that house because you may never pay it off.
How many years in purgatory are we talking here?

you may have to ask a priest for his purgatory calculator I don't know if its sins of non-absolution divided by how many times you go to church or what.

 

[Helen]

I usually try to avoid saying "I am saved" without a clarification that it is not a final and complete salvation yet. God has definitely already saved me from many things, both before I was actively striving to serve Him and since I became actively involved. For me since time remains, the final conclusion is still on hold.

I can't relate to that at all John.
If you aren't saved then there is no hope for me!!
So you think that once you believed , and once for endeavour to live a life well pleasing to God...you still have to live in fear that just maybe you wont make it!!!
Now I do feel like that about Rev = Overcomer's.. those who receive the Inheritance and don't get disinherited along the way, I can see that in the word clearly. ...but not about my salvation.
To live to be 70+ and still just hoping that you qualify must he hell on earth. How do you do it? I couldn't do it.
That is how I once lived before I became a believing Christian ..I wanted God, but didn't know how to connect, so I just had a "hope-so" life until the day I became a believer.

 

[amadeus]

So what you're really saying is that you aren't saved.
It's like saying, "I own my house but I still have a mortgage on it".
Well,you don't really own that house because you may never pay it off.
How many years in purgatory are we talking here?

If I am right, I'll be OK so long as I follow the Lord to the end of the road. If you do not follow Him all of the way to the end and I am right where will that leave you?

Give God the glory!

 

[Helen]

If I am right, I'll be OK so long as I follow the Lord to the end of the road. If you do not follow Him all of the way to the end and I am right where will that leave you?

Saved...but with no inheritance .
Pouring the wine rather than sitting at the table....

 

[amadeus]

I can't relate to that at all John.
If you aren't saved then there is no hope for me!!

We must let Jesus into our heart and then follow our heart. He is always our hope. God knows all of us better than we know ourselves. Without regard to which way we believe it He understands and sees our heart. Some go a very short comparative time like Stephen while others like the apostle John go on seeming after everyone else is finished.

So you think that once you believed , and once for endeavour to live a life well pleasing to God...you still have to live in fear that just maybe you wont make it!!!

No, as I say I do not live that way. I know that if I work for Him as He leads me I will make it to the end. Yes, I believe I could turn, but I have no intention of doing so, so why should I fear?

Now I do feel like that about Rev = Overcomer's.. those who receive the Inheritance and don't get disinherited along the way, I can see that in the word clearly. ...but not about my salvation.

A person gets disinherited for a reason. Esau lost his birthright because he failed to put first things first. Likewise Reuben. I am not saying those two have no hope, but their example is still not one to be followed for in that direction a final disinheritance may also be found. Hebrews perhaps tell a little more clearly what can happen when we fail to accept and receive the punishment which God says is ours. Life we may have as sons, but without chastisement...?

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:6-8

To live to be 70+ and still just hoping that you qualify must he hell on earth. How do you do it? I couldn't do it.
That is how I once lived before I became a believing Christian ..I wanted God, but didn't know how to connect, so I just had a "hope-so" life until the day I became a believer.

Yes, this is where, I believe, hell really is. If we do not make to the end with Jesus, then all we have is the hell we have experienced while here.

 

[amadeus]

Saved...but with no inheritance .
Pouring the wine rather than sitting at the table....

There is of course the difference between the Bride and the others who make it to the wedding feast. But... it is may be harder to make it in as a servant that to be part of the Bride. He may not make the Bride because of little things, but at least he makes it in. That is better than hell alone here and nothing hereafter.

 

[mjrhealth]

Something to do with,

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

in other words we would have to reject Him outright, toss Him aside like a piece of junk, no man can earn his righteousness, it only comes from Christ when you believe Him, that is why we today can stand before God, clothed in the righteousness of Jesus, and once you are His, no man can steal you from Him no matter how hard they try, and they will try,

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If I am right, I'll be OK so long as I follow the Lord to the end of the road. If you do not follow Him all of the way to the end and I am right where will that leave you?

Give God the glory!

What could/would stop you from following him to the end?