The Proof of Salvation

[marks]

So then we have more in common with the worst sinners in the world than we do with God. (I'm speaking of believers in and of themselves)

I'm not sure I understand this statement.

I would say we have nothing in common with unbelievers except that both they and us live in corrupt flesh in a fallen world. But they are of that world, and we are not. Being born of God makes us like our Father.

Much love!
Mark

 

[amadeus]

I think that only applies to Spider-Man

Well I cannot speak from the point of view of Spiderman, but as a naturally born citizen of the United States haven't I along with many or most members of man's modern so-called western [in particular] civilization had more given things to build on than nearly all of the rest of the people on planet Earth? People here [USA] sit in the comfort of well furnished homes, with decent clothing and air-conditioning and educational opportunity and the readily available natural blessings of Uncle Sam and presume on the lack of necessity to work to be saved as per OSAS and hold themselves then up above all of the Haitians in their huts and despair and anyone in that lower category according to men.

Much is given does not mean much which we may do, but much according to God that we are required to do. If we fail through our own laziness or erroneous conclusions to do whatever He would require of us when He has provided the means, what excuse do we have when we receive not even the reward of not dying?

 

[amadeus]

I think this is sloth (in spirit), Amadeus. Or as the old saints used to call it -Acedia.

Yes, or using another word: laziness.
Paul writes these words:

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal 6:9

Those who submit to laziness once they have received any gifts or rewards or talents from God definitely do "faint"...

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

He speaks of himself, but are we not also then sent by God?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

 

[Ezra]

Do you understand what a definition is? Yes, I read where you said love is a byproduct of grace. Its not a definition you gave. What is love and what is grace? You certainly don't have to answer, but no, you did not give definitions of love and grace.

so whats your point other than changing scriptures saved by grace-divine favor of God loved
ἠγάπησεν (ēgapēsen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 25: To love, wish well to, take pleasure in, long for; denotes the love of reason, esteem. Perhaps from agan; to love. btw there are several types love Jesus said LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THY SELF ..i do hope this helps note *** hope

 

[Ezra]

Do you understand what a definition is?

do you ?

 

[marks]

Add to your faith virtue, and to virtue, knowledge, and to knowledge, self-control, perserverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love.

First believe.
Second, want good.
Third, learn what the good is.
Fourth, put is to practice - do it.
Fifth, keep doing it.
Sixth, get the right mindset about God.
Then be affectionate to others.

Then, having believed, having chosen to do good, having learned what the good is, practicing it, continuing, unto God, that they can see your love, in so doing love them in truth.

Much love!
Mark

 

[APAK]

The only proof of salvation (that can't be duplicated by the outer man) is that we love. We are saved BY love in order TO love. Too simple? This is the simplicity which is in Christ.

How will people know that our gatherings are of the people of God? By the love that warms the gathering. You will know them by their love! What is the fruit of the Spirit? Love.

Just any kind of love? No. Human love is selfish. But God's love is selfless.

Faith takes us to God...and the God sends us back into this world equipped with His love.

I believe that love as the sole confirmation of salvation is too simplistic and tempts those that are still lost (even fake believers) to continue to remain lost.

There are a few hallmarks of a true converted person, both shown internally and externally.

Internally there is a change in desire and a thirst for the word of God. Prioritization of needs and desires usually take a sudden change. Material things become more unnecessary. The new spirit of God bathing or baptizing around our heart acknowledges its presence by its sudden warmth or electrification over major parts of our bodies. We begin to think and act with the spirit of God and not on our own. Some say this is the start of crawling and learning to walk with Christ. The truly converted do this at different rates.

Externally, we convey to the world over time that we produce fruit of this spirit given of God. We do things in love, patience, peace etc. We are quick to deny self and pride when it occurs. We always want to walk as Christ as the captain of our soul.

Yes, the demonstration of love, especially agape love is crucial although just showing the world that we have love and with others, as they (the world) understand it can mean no conversion has occurs at all.

Truth always trumps even a love that can be masked and is just brotherly love.

Blessings,

APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

so whats your point other than changing scriptures saved by grace-divine favor of God loved
ἠγάπησεν (ēgapēsen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 25: To love, wish well to, take pleasure in, long for; denotes the love of reason, esteem. Perhaps from agan; to love. btw there are several types love Jesus said LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THY SELF ..i do hope this helps note *** hope

You think I want to change scripture...?
You see no point in defining love and grace?

And where has your post gotten us? You still have not explained what distinction you see between love and grace.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe that love as the sole confirmation of salvation is too simplistic and tempts those that are still lost (even fake believers) to continue to remain lost.

There are a few hallmarks of a true converted person, both shown internally and externally.

Internally there is a change in desire and a thirst for the word of God. Prioritization of needs and desires usually take a sudden change. Material things become more unnecessary. The new spirit of God bathing or baptizing around our heart acknowledges its presence by its sudden warmth or electrification over major parts of our bodies. We begin to think and act with the spirit of God and not on our own. Some say this is the start of crawling and learning to walk with Christ. The truly converted do this at different rates.

Externally, we convey to the world over time that we produce fruit of this spirit given of God. We do things in love, patience, peace etc. We are quick to deny self and pride when it occurs. We always want to walk as Christ as the captain of our soul.

Yes, the demonstration of love, especially agape love is crucial although just showing the world that we have love and with others, as they (the world) understand it can mean no conversion has occurs at all.

Truth always trumps even a love that can be masked and is just brotherly love.

Blessings,

APAK

We weren't talking about a love that can be pretended. We were talking about Gods love and if it is a different thing than Gods grace.

But honestly, I am kind of done with the conversation. It got too ridiculous.

If you can have all knowledge, ie: all truth, and yet it is possible you can have nothing, I'm at a loss for how truth trumps love.

The apostle said to have all knowledge but without love is to have nothing. Yet men come in here and say knowledge is more important than love. Its very strange to me to read Paul say it and then hear a man dispute it. I can't glean what is the PURPOSE of arguing against Paul...I could almost think it must be because a man is trying to...cover his lack of love...?

 

[CoreIssue]

You think I want to change scripture...?
You see no point in defining love and grace?

And where has your post gotten us? You still have not explained what distinction you see between love and grace.

Love beings caring for others. Even evil people love.

Grace means unmerited gift.

We can love God but cannot give him a gift. But he can love us and give us an unmerited gift.

Very different concepts and meaning.

 

[Ezra]

You think I want to change scripture...?
You see no point in defining love and grace?

And where has your post gotten us? You still have not explained what distinction you see between love and grace.

where has your post gotten us???????? so far pardon my expression but its been like a mule looking at a new gate ..i can only go by scriptures lets try this again 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive" 7 so that in the coming ages" He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of so that we should walk in them. i defined love but you really cant define it has it is a action take your pick of the Love your speaking of agape, phileo, storge, and eros. if you go to a lost person and hey your saved by Love.. there going to say I LOVE GOD.. then in the next few words use God *** his Grace that saves us is through Love , by love of Love -----action john 3:16 ==== end results when we get saved isssssssss = Grace God riches at Christ expense ==Romans 5:8 [Full Chapter]
But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. love comes first then it turns to grace


it sure appears as if your trying to change scriptures -- hopefully this helps ..i have yet to see your explanation

 

[Ezra]

We were talking about Gods love and if it is a different thing than Gods grace.

how about you explain ?

 

[Ezra]

The apostle said to have all knowledge but without love is to have nothing. Yet men come in here and say knowledge is more important than love. Its very strange to me to read Paul say it and then hear a man dispute it. I can't glean what is the PURPOSE of arguing against Paul...I could almost think it must be because a man is trying to...cover his lack of love...?

he is talking to the Corinthian church / Christians a lost man can not experience God love out side of grace my whole point is the Bible does not say saved by Love

 

[Waiting on him]

Once again, I strongly disagree the passage does not elevate love above knowledge. In fact, I think simple reading comprehension shows this.

Love is the abundance that we receive. A more abundant life? It’s love thats added, this is our bond we are captive to it. If there is no love there is no rebirth. You will know them by their fruits, all the fruit is founded in LOVE.

 

[Ezra]

The difference between agape and phileo becomes very clear in John 21:15ff, but unfortunately it is obscured in almost all English translations. After being raised from the dead, Jesus met Peter. Here is the short version of what they said to each other.

Jesus: Simon…do you love (agape) me more than these [fish?].
Peter: Yes, Lord; you know that I love (phileo) you.
Jesus: Simon…do you…love (agape) me?
Peter: Yes, Lord, you know that I love (phileo) you.
Jesus: Simon…do you love (phileo) me?
Peter: [Grieved] “Lord…you know that I love (phileo) you.”

 

[Waiting on him]

love is a BYPRODUCT of salvation it was his love that kept him on the cross but it is by the grace of God we are saved not saved by love.the scripture above follows salvation .yes we should have Love

For God so LOVED the world

 

[Waiting on him]

The difference between agape and phileo becomes very clear in John 21:15ff, but unfortunately it is obscured in almost all English translations. After being raised from the dead, Jesus met Peter. Here is the short version of what they said to each other.

Jesus: Simon…do you love (agape) me more than these [fish?].
Peter: Yes, Lord; you know that I love (phileo) you.
Jesus: Simon…do you…love (agape) me?
Peter: Yes, Lord, you know that I love (phileo) you.
Jesus: Simon…do you love (phileo) me?
Peter: [Grieved] “Lord…you know that I love (phileo) you.”

Peter wasn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit at this time.

 

[Ezra]

Peter wasn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit at this time.

maybe maybe not

 

[Waiting on him]

maybe maybe not

I’m pretty clear on this point. He’d just denied Christ x3 was pouting because things weren’t going his way. Not very fruitful in my opinion, but at Pentecost there’s a radical change. I see men walking in newness of life.

 

[Ezra]

I’m pretty clear on this point. He’d just denied Christ x3 was pouting because things weren’t going his way. Not very fruitful in my opinion, but at Pentecost there’s a radical change. I see men walking in newness of life.

not going to agree with you on this what did paul write in Romans 8 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so it be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. {Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.} not fruitful i agree . let me put the ball in your court ..have you ever had a let down had a pitty party . he denied Christ 3 times out of fear notice peter next action after the rooster crowed
Matthew 26:74-75 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
74 Then he began to curse and to swear, saying, “I know not the man!” And immediately the cock crowed.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, when He said unto him, “Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny Me thrice.” And he went out and wept bitterly

next
2 Corinthians 7:9-11 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorrowful, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For ye were made sorrowful in a godly manner, that ye might receive injury from us in nothing.

10 For godly sorrow is not to be repented of, but worketh repentance unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

11 For behold this selfsame thing, when ye sorrowed in a godly manner: what earnest concern it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what requital! In all these things ye have proved yourselves to be clear in this matter...peter had true Holy Ghost conviction . peter had to grow for him yo be successful at Pentecost. peter was a rugged fisherman he did things his way God had had to transform him remember in the garden when they came after Christ .peter pulled out his sword and literally cut the soldiers ear off ..do you think this was by luck? Christ had to give peter another lesson .. the Holy Spirit does not just transform us into the perfect Christian in on swipe.. he changes us from Glory to glory one step at a time , i dare say if WE all would be honest our actions has not always been exactly righteous actions...

hey i have a set up technician at work .we use to lock horns big time.. yes i told him exactly what i thought point blank ..stood eye to eye with him in heated anger ..could have very easy come to blows.. i would have got my tale kicked . he is bigger stronger and about 10 years younger me... but ya know a buddy mine kept praying..i kept seeking God to help me with my temper . chill james out.. guess what we get along fairly good.. which is a miracle he is a but head .through God grace and the Holy spirit we have not had any major problems
dont be judging peter not having the holy spirit.. he was just as saved as you and i .the flesh can come in and we do fleshly things . if we dont guard against the flesh... so sorry < Peter wasn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit at this time.> that boat dont float with me