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The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Rex, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Greetings Arnie

    Plunking this into Christian mindset is not sufficient for a true understanding of the Gospel of God. If we (Gentiles) are invited to take part in their spiritual things and be grafted into their Olive Tree and enjoy their blessings then wouldn't this redefine the meaning of a true "Christian?"

    For they were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings. (Rom 15:27)

    The word koinoneo: to share with others, is the verb of the noun "contribution" which occurs in Rom 15:26. These words appear to be an allusion to Rom 11:18, "If thou [Gentiles] boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee..." There is evidently a play on words as indicated in the following rendering:

    "A general contribution, as it should be, since it is really repaying a debt: the pagans who share the spiritual possessions of these poor people have a duty to help them with temporal possessions". This was an example of "fellowship" in a most practical and realistic way.

    "Of their spiritual things" Gr. pneumatikos (as in Rom 1:11 and Rom 7:14). The hope of the gospel they enjoyed had come through the testimony of God delivered first to the Jew.

    Lest we forget. :)
     
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  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I'll have to blot out Hebrews 9:27-28 and add the foot note.

    Reto's interpretation of prophesy overrides salvation by faith, In the event of dieing in unbelief all Israelites will again be afforded the opportunity to believe in God when when he appears in his glory, see Zech 12:1-14
    Got It

    Hebrews 9:26-28

    Just when you thought you had heard it all
     
  3. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Rex .... I think you are clinging too hard to the notion that I am saying Israel is just fine even though they are in unbelief .... I have never said that ...... quite frankly I do not know how God will save all Israel ..... it does not add up for someone like me who believes salvation is only through Christ .... both for Jew and Gentile.

    My whole position comes from the fact that God himself indicates he still has plans for disobedient unbelieving Israel ..... look at how God lambastes disobedient Israel in Ezekiel 36 and lists all their many faults

    Then he give us his reasons why He still has (favorable) plans for them ....

    22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.


    He does not use the word "salvation" as we know it in the christian sense .... but certainly there will be a cleansing of Israel from all their impurities

    25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

    29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.

    33 On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt

    27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

    (The above verse 27 is rather unusual in that God gives them His Spirit .... yet will still have them keep His laws ....)

    Best wishes Rex and everybody ...... as unwavering Christians , we have great difficulty making sense of this whole scenario ..... but God has reasons which he says are his own.

    He does not require our approval .
     
  4. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    I do :)
     
  5. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    To begin with Ezekiel was prophesying to the 10 tribes called Israel and Jeremiah was prophesying to the tribes of Judea and Benjamin, all that aside what he is speaking of is the work was not yet completed "Jesus" He, God punished both sides of the divided nation and continued to manifest His promise "the Messiah" not for their sake but for His names sake. It has nothing to do with the last days and everything to do with the captivity of Israel and Judea.

    As for not knowing I suppose your I'll prepared by your own admission 1 Peter 3:15
    In other words you have no salt Col 4:6

    Yet every-time the subject comes up, their you are with your hands empty
    The only thing I see indicated is you have no scriptural support no salt. On the other hand you have heard countless times the scriptures not indicating, but flat out saying your wrong about who Israel of the promise is. Romans 9:6-8 Gal 3:8-9

    Did some one just propose to you?
    If not then lets here what you have to say
     
  6. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    No, simply stating a truth concerning the "how" God will redeem His people.

    Your comment concerning Ezekiel is incorrect.

    But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. (Eze 36:8)

    Such a declaration reveals the status to be enjoyed by the people of Israel. They are Yahweh's people even now, but will be more so in the future when they are humbled and restored. Those in the land at Christ's coming will suffer much from the depredations of Gog (see Zec 13:8-9), but the remnant will be saved to rejoice in their Messiah when he reveals himself to them (Zec 13:6; Zec 12:7-14). Politically, they are accounted as Judah, whilst those scattered abroad are treated as Israel, Ephraim or Joseph (Zec 9:13; Zec 9:10; Eze 37:16). Both those in the land, as well as those scattered abroad are to be restored to fellowship with God through the new covenant that He will make with them (Jer 31:31-38; Rom 11:23). When that takes place, the division that was brought into existence at the time of Rehoboam and Jeroboam will be healed, and the twelve tribes will enjoy the full status of "my people of Israel" (see Hos 1:10).

    Ezek 36:8 cont..."For they are at hand to come" As the full restoration of all the tribes of Israel will be brought about after the destruction of Gog (Ezek 39:25-26), the whole land is to be made ready to receive them. Elijah will be deputed to this work, and will organise the return of Israel to the land in successive migrations (Jer 3:14).

    Beautiful.

    Purity
     
  7. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Thank You
    I'll catalog your evidence with Retro's prophesy interpretation to make a case for who Israel of the promise is, instead of listening to Paul tell us in the NT under the new covenant who Israel is, concerning both salvation and the promise. But don't feel empty handed I have spoken with a number of pasters about the subject and they to can never offer an explanation, So I guess your just stuck with a bible interpretation that contradicts itself, because prophesy interpretation means more than clear text, or Pauls understanding of Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise. Paul interpreted the promise to Abraham but I guess many people choose to ignore him. Preferring to interpret there own story line.
    And concerning salvation apparently there is one brand for Jews and another brand for everyone else. Am I understand correctly Arnie and Retro?
     
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  8. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Your thanks were insincere.

    Why can you not see both natural and spiritual Israel within my reply.

    Better to ask a question than assume an understanding.

    Purity
     
  9. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I thanked you, and disagreed, being sincere by your use of the word would could only be accomplished by agreement.
     
  10. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Not so.

    You thanked me and then proceeded to make an accusation.

    "I'll catalog your evidence with Retro's prophesy interpretation to make a case for who Israel of the promise is, instead of listening to Paul tell us in the NT under the new covenant who Israel is"

    So not only was your "thank you" insincere, it was followed with the accusation that I do not listen to the Apostle Paul.

    You are not faring well in this conversation Rex.

    Did you even consider my post and how the Natural and Spiritual Jew is both dealt with by God?

    Purity

    Lets continue to deal with your point that nothing in Ezek 36 is to do with the last days.

    Consider the first verse Ezek 36:1 where we read "Prophesy unto the mountains of Israel", Go back and contrast the prediction of this chapter with that proclaimed against Mt. Seir in Chapter 35, or that spoken against the "mountains of Israel" in Chapter 6. Whereas Ezekiel 6 proclaims impending desolation of the land, this chapter (Ezek 36) speaks of its restoration to its former glory and fertility.

    Now in that day, figuratively as well as literally, the mountain of the house of Yahweh will be established above the surrounding mountains (Isa 2:2)

    Will it not Rex?

    "in the last days....The mountain of the Lord"

    What about the literal happenings of Ezek 36:2?

    Do the Gentiles today mock the Jews? Are they a byword of all people in the earth?

    "Because the enemy hath said against you"

    Will there be boastful jubilation against Israel once again in the earth? And will Yahweh's indictment against the Gentiles be their boastful jubilation against Israel in dispersion?

    Rex, do you understand such things?

    Has not history taught you that no one can touch the people of God with impunity, and even though Gentiles might be used by Him as the medium of Divine punishment against Israel, their real motives are only to advance their own aggrandisement and because of that they are punished (see Isa 10:5-15).

    Are these matters understood Rex?

    I "sincerely" hope so for your sake.

    Purity

    Notice how God judges Israel's land in Gentile hands!

    "Because they made you desolate"

    It is the land which has been made desolate, and therefore these words are addressed to it. Gentile occupation of it has brought this state about. Daniel refers to the Gentiles as "desolators" (Dan 9:26).

    "Ye are taken up in the lips of talkers"

    A point in mention here concerning the tone of those Christians who speak derogatively concerning God's people Israel. The Gentiles have mock and derided both the land and people of Israel, as Moses predicted they would under such conditions (Deut 29:24-29).

    The Christian would do well to hold their tongue in fear of Him who calls His People His beloved.

    It is enough.

    Purity
     
  11. In Christ

    In Christ New Member

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    Rex

    I believe you have the correct biblical understanding of Romans 11:25-26. If I may I would like to add to what you've already declared to which many have misunderstood.

    Jeremiah 3:14

    Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will
    take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

    God, however divorced Israel because of their continued disobedience and served other gods. This divorce was culminated as the veil of the curtain in the temple was torn in half from top to bottom.

    Israel was scattered to many parts of the world for over 1900 years and once again became a nation amongst other nations of the world in 1948. However, up until this day they remain in unbelief.

    The Bible contains types and figures, realities and shadows, and so forth.

    We've learned in the parable of the Fig Tree that the fig tree is a representation/figure of National Israel.

    Mr 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
    Mr 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
    Mr 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
    Mr 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou curedst is withered away.

    Lu 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    Lu 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

    The key to understanding Romans 11:25-26 is to find what is meant by the term, 'until the fullness of the gentiles come in'. No one in this thread has really attempted to explain it and I shall attempt to do so.

    We know that the condition of National Israel is one of blindness. The term 'until the fullness of the gentiles come in means: until the last of the gentiles to be saved has become saved.

    We can now read Ro. 11:25 this way (which is biblical to do):

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the last of the Gentiles to be saved has become saved.

    The condition of National Israel as being blinded, along with the curse of the Lord Jesus are for ever, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (which will be the last day).

    Four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 Jesus said: “I will raise him up on the Last Day.”

    Verse 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    The word 'so' means 'in this manner' and Jacob means Israel. Again the words are interchangeable.

    In this manner all Israel (body of believers, Jews and Gentiles alike) shall be saved.

    I hope and pray this helped even with my lack of skill in the English language.
     
  12. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    What if you understood Jeremiah 3:14 to be the calling of scattered Jewry throughout the earth through a messenger sent Matt 11:14? Small steps are needed to be taken to understand the future fulfilment of Jer 3:14.

    Firstly do you understand what Jer 3:14 is teaching?
     
  13. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Yes lest we forget that Romans 15:27 was written nearly 2000 years ago, and their spiritual things consisted primarily of the scriptures and the teachings of the apostles. Those things have long been out of their hands, and into the hands of others who have preserved the same for centuries. To whom is the debt owed now?

    Oh, also, let's not forget that the root is Jesus. Just a small detail...
     
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  14. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    I would like everybody to bookmark this post .... and use it as a reference for events about to unfold. Mark my words. Thank You.

    .....................................................................................................................

    What is often overlooked (or missed) is the fact there is a nugget of favorable prophecy for Israel that remains unfulfilled.

    I am not talking about the end-times prophecies .... those certainly await fulfillment .... and many un-pleasantries are in store for Israel

    The nugget of prophecy I am referring to happens after the regathering of the Jews to the land ..... and before the end-times.

    These nuggets of favorable prophecy have always been there ..... we roll right over them as we read our bibles .... but even when the scholars and theologians stop and study them closely ..... they have a hard time placing them in the big picture ..... but they all acknowledge they are there and remain unfulfilled.

    One indication is the survival of the worldwide Jew after 2000 years of being scattered throughout the nations .

    The next indication of the beginning of the fulfillment was the return to Palestine of the Jews in 1948 (this is favorable prophecy for Israel who are still in un-beleif)

    Then there have been the skirmishes and wars since 1948 where Israel gains more territory including Jerusalem in spite of the fact that the nations are furious about Israel being in the land in the first place.

    Then there is the obvious prosperity of Israel since 1948 which is another fulfillment of favorable prophecy for Israel (who are still in un-beleif)

    Still to come

    Israel will regain all of the territory God gave Jacob .... and the surrounding nations will quit fighting them (for the first time in history) .... this nugget can be found in Ezekiel 28:24-26.

    24 “‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.
    25 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.’”


    The land God gave Jacob is much larger than present day Israel .... it will include part of Egypt , part of Saudi Arabia , a slice of Jordan , a big chunk of Iraq , and the southern portions of Syria and Lebanon.

    The hand of the miraculous will be evident during the re-claiming of all the land belonging to Jacob (Israel)

    ............ As well ..... the following portion of Psalm 102 is now in effect ....
    The LORD will arise and have compassion on Zion,
    for it is time to show favor to her;
    the appointed time has come.

    Let this be written for a future generation

    Since 1948 Israel is the generation mentioned in the above prophecy.

    God has arisen on behalf of His Nation Israel.

    These actions are distinct from The Christian church and are exclusive to Israel

    One day soon the documents attesting to all the above will be published and made public

    In the meantime ..... keep your eye on Israel

    Best wishes
    Arnie M.
     
  15. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Arnie,

    What do you make of Benjamin Friedman's expose of how the present 'land of Israel' comes to be in their hands, him being an eye-witness?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

    Secondly, the whole earth is going to be given to God's people - including Gentile Christians. Compare Exodus 19:5 and 1 Peter 2:2 - 12, and add in Ezekiel 47:22 and 23. What it tells us is, that even under the Old Covenant, there was a clear prophecy about 'the stranger' sharing 'the land'.



    Hi Purity,

    I would just like to answer your futuristic statement with this question: don't you think they are already reconciled in Christ, according to Paul's writings?
    And, again I would like to quote Paul in Acts 26, who does not sound as if he believes there is any enmity between the twelve tribes. The enmity upon which he capitalises in the event described, is the controversy over whether a person can be raised from the dead or not.

    6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
     
  16. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    The "land" of Ezekiel 28:25 is the 'adamah and not the 'erets. You will not be capable of rightly dividing so as to "see" it unless and until true repentance comes and the blinders are removed from the heart and mind, O Israel. The dust of the 'adamah is the same fertile soil of the heart, even from the parable of the sower, from which Adam the first man was taken in the beginning. Father Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Messiah, and he saw it, and was glad, O Israel.

    Matthew 12:29-30
    29. And Yeshua answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
     
  17. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    So you believe 2000 years passing and Romans 15:27 is no more? You bring this exposition of Romans 15:27 to the forum? Can you grasp the Spirit to which Paul writes?

    Are you so cold and your light so dim that you have forgotten?

    And you say Jesus is the root [​IMG] Can you be more precise?

    No. A great number of events must come to pass before the New Covenant is written upon their hearts.

    Pauls position (and beliefs) had not changed that's the whole point! It was the crux of his position before King Agrippa. He still upheld the O.T. Scriptures according to the Abrahamic faith. His hope is that of Israel (Gal 3:8) which invokes the necessity for resurrection (Acts 23:6). Those promises included the "raising up" of a prophet "like unto Moses" (Deut 18:15); of a king from the loins of David (2Sa 7:12; Psa 132:11); of a "branch" from the remnant of Israel (Isa 4:2); of one with the "right" to the throne of David (Eze 21:27); and who would come at the set time of "seventy weeks" (Dan 9:24). All the Scriptures centred on such a Messiah.

    One needs to hold a macro view of God's plan with Israel and by no means are they currently in Christ...far from it in fact.

    Be patient its coming.

    Purity
     
  18. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Gal 3:16-18
    Romans 4:13-18
     
  19. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, dragonfly.

    (Sorry, I almost missed this post. It was rather "tucked away" in another.)

    Absolutely not. I cannot tell the difference, because there IS NO DIFFERENCE!

    I have to confess that I may have misspoke a little. We're not just "honorary members of Y'hudah"; we ARE members of Y'hudah! You say, "You don't become sons of Jacob - the man of flesh"? You don't become "sons of Israel"? You become "part of Israel Himself?!" That's just double-talk rubbish! I noticed the capital "H" in Himself, but neither God nor Yeshua` is EVER called "Israel!" NEVER!!! Yeshua` Himself would be the first to admit that He IS a SON of Isra'el! Are you meshuggah, too?! He IS, however, called the SEED! Without sounding too gauche or crass, the word "seed" in the Scriptures is...


    In the Hebrew:
    OT:2233 zera` (zeh'-rah); from OT:2232; seed; figuratively, fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity:
    KJV - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowingtime.

    In the Greek:
    NT:4690 sperma (sper'-mah); from NT:4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication, offspring; specifically, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting):
    KJV - issue, seed.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    This crazy resistance to common sense that Gentile believers who call themselves "Christians" have is completely mind-boggling to me!

    I'm going to give you a profound statement made in Hebrews, and then you need to THINK ABOUT IT and extrapolate it to what we are talking about:


    Hebrews 6:17-7:17
    6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
    20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
    7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
    2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
    3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
    4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
    7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
    8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
    16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
    17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
    KJV

    Yeshua` is an Isra'eliy or an Isra'elite BECAUSE...


    Luke 3:23-34
    23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
    24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
    25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
    26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
    27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
    28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
    29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
    30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
    31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
    32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
    33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
    34 Which was the son of Jacob (who was renamed to Yisra'el or Isra'el, "a prince with God"), ,,,
    KJV


    Yeshua` was a Jew (of the tribe of Y'hudah or Judah) because ...


    Luke 3:23-33
    23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
    24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
    25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
    26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
    27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
    28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
    29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
    30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
    31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
    32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
    33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
    KJV


    Yeshua` was a Son of David because He was a DESCENDANT of David...


    Luke 3:23-31
    23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
    24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
    25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
    26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
    27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
    28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
    29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
    30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
    31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
    KJV

    When we throw in the lineage that Matthew gives in Matthew 1,...


    Matthew 1:6-16
    6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
    7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
    8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
    9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
    10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
    11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
    15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
    KJV


    ... we also see that He is the rightful HEIR TO THE THRONE OF DAVID! Indeed, Luke 1 also gives us this information:


    Luke 1:30-33
    30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeshua` = "He shall save" or "He shall deliver" or "He shall rescue").
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    KJV

    Yeshua` was IN THE LOINS OF HIS FATHER DAVID when David ruled over the children of Isra'el! Which also brings to mind another point: Why do you think the nation of Isra'el is always known as the CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL?! Often the word "house" doesn't refer to a building but the HOUSEHOLD of a person, as it does here. This is the FAMILY of Jacob or the MISHPACHAH Ya`aqov, the CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL! Yeshua` will be King over the Household of Ya`aqov or the Children of Isra'el FOREVER!

    Now, read Ephesians 2 again:


    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Isra'elites).
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV

    And, also re-examine Romans 11 in this light:

    Romans 11:16-32
    16 Now if the challah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive (an oleander)— were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. 19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you! 22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! 23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!
    25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; 26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh says,

    “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer;
    he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
    27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . .
    when I take away their sins.” (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9)

    28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake, 29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable. 30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience; 31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy. 32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.
    CJB

    We are ADOPTED into the Family in the Messiah. Being co-heirs with the Messiah, we will also reign with Him! How is that possible if we are not also part of the tribe of Y'hudah? One more passage:


    Hebrews 8:8-13
    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
    KJV

    So, you have a choice: Because the New Covenant was going to be made with the House of Isra'el and the House of Y'hudah, either you can't participate in the New Covenant, or you are part of the house of Isra'el! Which is it going to be?
     
  20. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Matthew 23:13
    Joshua 24:15
    John 17:20-23
     
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