The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Retrobyter]

_____

Shalom, daq.

The "land" of Ezekiel 28:25 is the 'adamah and not the 'erets. You will not be capable of rightly dividing so as to "see" it unless and until true repentance comes and the blinders are removed from the heart and mind, O Israel. The dust of the 'adamah is the same fertile soil of the heart, even from the parable of the sower, from which Adam the first man was taken in the beginning. Father Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Messiah, and he saw it, and was glad, O Israel.

Matthew 12:29-30
29. And Yeshua answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Please learn Hebrew. If you're going to focus on some of the words, like adamah and erets, quit thinking these are some sort of "supernal words" and realize that they have SIMPLE DEFINITIONS that easily carry over into English. Adamah means the DIRT! Erets means the LAND! Just like there's a difference between "dirt" and "land," so there's a difference between "adamah" and "erets," but NOT in the way you're thinking! SIBKIS! (See It Big, Keep It Simple!)
_____

Shalom, Rex.

Matthew 23:13
Joshua 24:15
John 17:20-23

Hmmm.... None of which are applicable.

 

[Rex]

Shalom, Rex.


Hmmm.... None of which are applicable.

Sure they are, your the one that offered DF a choice that didn't include believing in the seed which was Christ, instead you teach by the seeds salvation is delivered Gal 3:16 Not much of a choice or the salvation message. I won't be thanking or be standing in reverance to the Jews of delivering salvation, and God is of the same opinion, Ezek 20:9 It's God who gets the glory, not a bunch ego maniacs

So, you have a choice: Because the New Covenant was going to be made with the House of Isra'el and the House of Y'hudah, either you can't participate in the New Covenant, or you are part of the house of Isra'el! Which is it going to be?

Exclusion of the promise "not a covenant" is also not something I find, Gal 3:8 so my salvation has nothing to do with Israel of the flesh zero nada nothing, God literately had to drag them to the birth of Christ, FOR HIS NAME SAKE.

Salvation is of the Jews meaning Christ would be born from the seed of David "Abraham" You see David was recipient of the promise by faith.
Not, salvation because of the Jews

I have every bit of respect for those of the promise Being John, James, Abraham ect ect ect And I thank them for delivering the message they witnessed John 17:20
But your not part of the promise your teaching a different Gospel

This I'm attending the wedding feast by showing my birth certificate today is nonsense, it has already been offered and refused by those living at the time of Christ. Matthew 22:1-14
Then the second part of Gods promise came into being Gal 3:8 or the last part of the parable Matthew 22:7-9 he destroyed those murderers and burned their city "70 AD anyone" The Jews had exclusive right to the promise and salvation from John the Baptist Matthew 3:9-10 till Acts 10:1-48 now the promise is given to the nations. The ax was laid at the root Israel as nation of flesh inspite of the great embarrassment they were to God the time was fulfilled NIV says The time has come. Mark 1:15 KJV

 

[Purity]

Gal 3:16-18
Romans 4:13-18

More precise?

 

[Rex]

I'm not very good at mind reading games, my wife proved that to me.

And you say Jesus is the root

Can you be more precise?

Gal 3:16-18
Romans 4:13-18

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you believe 2000 years passing and Romans 15:27 is no more? You bring this exposition of Romans 15:27 to the forum? Can you grasp the Spirit to which Paul writes?
Are you so cold and your light so dim that you have forgotten?

With that kind of response, I'm just really astounded that you even consider yourself to be an expositor of scripture, and that you actually believe you have something edifying to contribute to the body of Christ. Astounding... simply astounding...

 

[daq]

_____

Shalom, daq.


Please learn Hebrew. If you're going to focus on some of the words, like adamah and erets, quit thinking these are some sort of "supernal words" and realize that they have SIMPLE DEFINITIONS that easily carry over into English. Adamah means the DIRT! Erets means the LAND! Just like there's a difference between "dirt" and "land," so there's a difference between "adamah" and "erets," but NOT in the way you're thinking! SIBKIS! (See It Big, Keep It Simple!)

You do not read Hebrew but rather transliterations of Hebrew.
In addition to this you will need the Spirit otherwise you have nothing but block letters. :lol:

Ezekiel 11:14-20
14. Again the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,
15. Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Yisra'el wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Yerushalaim have said, Get you afar off from YHWH: for unto us is this ha'arets-'erets-land given in possession.
16. Therefore say, Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; Although I have cast them afar off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among ha'aratsowt-'erets-lands, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-chapel-sanctuary in ha'aratsowt-'erets-lands where they shall come.
17. Therefore say, Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; I will even gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of ha'aratsowt-'erets-lands where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the 'adamat-soil of Yisra'el.
18. And they shall enter therein, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new Ruach-Spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20. That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their 'Elohim.

Is it my fault we are not in the same land? You have your own 'adamah-soil of the heart and miqdash-chapel.
In addition to what I said above; you are likewise quite wrong in every other respect when it comes to prophecy.
All this because you refused to belief the Scripture and changed nephesh-soul into nothing more than "a breather" as I recall. ;)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Arnie,

What do you make of Benjamin Friedman's expose of how the present 'land of Israel' comes to be in their hands, him being an eye-witness?

Benjamin Friedman reminds me of Hitler with Jewish skin and a squeaky voice.

 

[dragonfly]

Benjamin Friedman reminds me of Hitler with Jewish skin and a squeaky voice.

That is not the answer to my question.

To Purity,

Pauls position (and beliefs) had not changed that's the whole point! It was the crux of his position before King Agrippa. He still upheld the O.T. Scriptures according to the Abrahamic faith. His hope is that of Israel (Gal 3:8) which invokes the necessity for resurrection (Acts 23:6). Those promises included the "raising up" of a prophet "like unto Moses" (Deut 18:15); of a king from the loins of David (2Sa 7:12; Psa 132:11); of a "branch" from the remnant of Israel (Isa 4:2); of one with the "right" to the throne of David (Eze 21:27); and who would come at the set time of "seventy weeks" (Dan 9:24). All the Scriptures centred on such a Messiah.

One needs to hold a macro view of God's plan with Israel and by no means are they currently in Christ...far from it in fact.

Be patient its coming.

Purity

I picked up on your suggestion that there has been no reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Israel. I disagree with that stance, and have no idea what you are getting at in your response, since Messiah did come, as he was promised, and as the first believers acknowledged - beginning with His disciples, then more than the hundred and twenty, then the three thousand in Acts 2, and more... down through the centuries.

 

[Purity]

That is not the answer to my question.

To Purity,


I picked up on your suggestion that there has been no reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Israel. I disagree with that stance, and have no idea what you are getting at in your response, since Messiah did come, as he was promised, and as the first believers acknowledged - beginning with His disciples, then more than the hundred and twenty, then the three thousand in Acts 2, and more... down through the centuries.

Greetings Dragonfly

There are key prophecies concerning both Judah and Israel and their future reconciliation. Yes Messiah came and is to again, but what of scattered Jewry? So many prophecies...where to begin?

You say reconciliation has taken place. Show me throughout the past 2000 years when and where Ezek 37:15,16 was fulfilled? Provide the details of such a unity for God's people?

If this is so, then Christ is sitting upon David's throne and the saints are immortalised and yet we are still corrupting flesh?

Of course this is not so.

Israel will need to humbly accept their Messiah as King and his reception of them, before the deliverance of the nation will be complete. Israel's redeemer will have turned ungodliness away from Jacob (Isa. 59:20-21) and all Israel will have been saved (Rom. 11:26-27). Judah and Israel will be united under one king (Ezek. 37:21-22) who will guide them so that they might continually walk in the ways of Yahweh (Ezek. 37:24) and dwell at peace in the land promised to their fathers (Ezek. 37:25-27). Thus will the long awaited national deliverance of Israel be accomplished - Ezek. 36:24-35.

Purity

With that kind of response, I'm just really astounded that you even consider yourself to be an expositor of scripture, and that you actually believe you have something edifying to contribute to the body of Christ. Astounding... simply astounding...

I don't consider myself to be anything at all. You spoke against the spirit of Rom 15:17 without a second thought to what that Scripture was teaching you.

Explain to us what Paul had in mind when saying to you "For if the Gentiles (you and I) have been made partakers of their spiritual things"

What Spiritual things CRFTD? Things irrelevant to you today? Is that what you were implying?

This matter is with you, not I, for I understand the verse and the spirit which Paul is teaching. Your astonishment holds no value at all in this discussion.

Purity

I'm not very good at mind reading games, my wife proved that to me.

Rex,

What is the root which gives the olive tree life?

2 Cor 1:20ESV

in him = Jesus Christ

The man of Isa 11:1,10

A branch from Jesse's root

:)

 

[logabe]

That is not the answer to my question.

To Purity,


I picked up on your suggestion that there has been no reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Israel. I disagree with that stance, and have no idea what you are getting at in your response, since Messiah did come, as he was promised, and as the first believers acknowledged - beginning with His disciples, then more than the hundred and twenty, then the three thousand in Acts 2, and more... down through the centuries.

He came the first time to establish his dominion (Judah), as the King of the Jews.
He is coming again to establish His Kingdom (Joseph), and complete the fruitfulness
mandate that was given in Gen. 1:28.

At the present, Israel has been blinded by God, until the Holy Spirit is poured out
upon the whole earth @ the feast of Tabernacles (Isa. 42:18-20). Isaiah spoke of
Christ coming and opening their blind eyes so they could see (Isa. 42:7).

When Jesus came and healed many people of physical blindness, it pictured what He
would do for Israel and the whole world spiritually. He would open their eyes and
their blindness would be broken. That would be the beginning of the massive teaching
spoken of by the prophets (Isa. 2:3-4) and (Micah 4:2-3).

The real fulfillment of Israel can only be recognized when Jesus Christ is the Rightful
Heir and the King, which will take place @ his second coming. Then, Israel and Judah
will be united under one King ( Ezekiel 37:22-24) and (Hosea 1:11). This hasn't happened
yet, but it will in due season.

God will saturate this earth with the Spirit and nobody will be able to resist the power
that shall come upon this earth (Habakkuk 2:14) and (Ps. 22:27). In that day, there will
be peace in the valley and no more pain and sorrow, for the former things has passed
away and Judah and Israel will come home.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't consider myself to be anything at all. You spoke against the spirit of Rom 15:17 without a second thought to what that Scripture was teaching you.
Explain to us what Paul had in mind when saying to you "For if the Gentiles (you and I) have been made partakers of their spiritual things"
What Spiritual things CRFTD? Things irrelevant to you today? Is that what you were implying?
This matter is with you, not I, for I understand the verse and the spirit which Paul is teaching. Your astonishment holds no value at all in this discussion.

Let's see... who were the believers among the nations indebted to? Was it Caiaphus, and the people who stoned Stephen, and all of the other unbelieving Israelites?

No. They were indebted to the believing remnant of Israelites at that time because their spiritual well-being depended upon their scriptures and doctrines of Christ (Israel's spiritual things). Therefore, they were not indebted to Israel after the flesh, but after the spirit.

But that relationship has long passed. Who has preserved the scriptures and doctrines of Christ for the past nearly 2000 years? The believing remnant among the nations. So if anything, unbelieving Jews who now turn to Christ are indebted to the remnant among the nations for preserving the scriptures and doctrine of Christ for nearly two millenia.

 

[Rex]

Rex,

What is the root which gives the olive tree life?

2 Cor 1:20ESV

in him = Jesus Christ

The man of Isa 11:1,10

A branch from Jesse's root

:)

If you didn't gather that from Gal 3:16-18 I don't know what to tell you
other than, the OT is not about the Jews or Israel it's about Christ.

To show you that the law or any convent made with Israel after the promise to Abraham in no way voids it.
In fact they stand on it Romans 4:13-18

For this reason Paul makes the foundation clear, even unto it's pertaining to the Gentiles.
Every Jew knows that the root of the bloodline began with Abraham and the promise not a "covenant" is Christ.

A promise only involves one party that being God
A covenant on the other hand is a contract between God and Israel.
It is conditional and in everyone God made with Israel Gods blessing was based on Israels keeping this covenant "the conditions of the contract" Ezek 20:5 on the day I chose Israel, what day was that? why the day He brought them out of Egypt. Notice it says nothing about Abraham or the promise. Ezek 20:7 when did he tell them to get rid of the vile images of other Gods, why when He made the covenant with them the 10 commandments.

And just as the root of Jesse has two meaning so is the promise of the "seed". One it was speaking of David and two it was pointing toward Christ. So why is it that when you read prophesies you believe it is only speaking of the first instance "the seed of Jesse?" or Israel of the flesh? Jesse has no power to save or forgive sins. The same is true when God told Abraham, and from your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. This is not speaking about Isac or Jacob or even Jesse it is speaking of Christ. And it is also speaking of the deliverance of the message, in the first instance it is speaking about the disciples and Paul from the bloodline seed of Abraham, but theses are based on the true seed from which they are heavenly born, they were sent from Christ. You see there are two threw out the whole bible an Israel of the flesh and an Israel of the promise. Just as seed has two meanings one being the blood seed of Abraham and more importantly two the "seed" which is Christ. Gal 3:16
In that we see that all of Israel is not Israel, meaning not all of the blood decedents are of the promise. Romans 9:5-7 If it wasn't so in the OT how then can it be so in the future? It simply can't and never will be. So when it says all Israel shall be saved, it becomes clear that this is not ALL the blood decedents of Abraham it is speaking of those born of the promise by faith. All Israel shall be saved is speaking about all nations and peoples Gen 12:3 Gen 18:18 Gen 22:18
Notice in the last instance or better yet notice the progression of clarity in the 3 Gen references. The last stating clearly and threw your off spring being first Christ, and the disciples also being his offspring all the nations shall be blessed. God always intended to bless all nations and people but not until the fulness of the blessing was delivered to Abraham's SEEDS as in many.

It's really to bad most can only see the former definition of seed and not the latter and that being Jesus. Like I already said in my last post.
David was a seed from Abraham but the point is he was a recipient of the promised seed which is Christ.

Salvation is of the Jews meaning Christ would be born from the seed of David "Abraham" You see David was recipient of the promise by faith.
Not, salvation because of the Jews

And like wise when the Prophets are speaking about the Lords day and Israel being a blessing upon the whole earth their not speaking about a bloodline seed, their speaking about the line of the promised seed "the true Israel" that has received the promise. In Issac its clear to see the bloodline is not of the promise. One he loved Jacob and the other he hated Esau. From Jacob we see Israel being born "the flesh" all of Jacobs children. And we see the first covenant being made with body of people called Israel, when God took them out of Egypt and handed them the 10 commandments. THIS IS NOT THE PROMISE its a covenant with a nation.

Of Jacobs 12 sons who carried the promise? It was Joesph a type of Christ sold into slavery by his brothers, yet having mercy on them.
The other 11 didn't carry anything, isn't it fitting that Christ only had the last supper with 11 disciples, Just as Joesph not yet know to his brothers had dinner with his brothers as well. Then Joesph dropped the bomb, I am your brother, just as Jesus dropped the bomb, "I Am" and I have risen from the dead and appeared to you.

Long story short it's not about the brothers or Israel of the flesh its all about Gods promise to Abraham.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The original question raised in the opening post of thread was .... "Who is Israel" ..... in Romans 11:26

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

I say it is literal Israel .... the country in the middle east , and her Jewish citizens descended thru Issac from Jacob (who was later named Israel).

Rex says all the references to Israel are now to be applied to the Western Gentile Christian Church in a "spiritual" manner .

Rex feels there is no hope for Israel because they rejected Christ

From a Christian perspective I would have to agree

But the bible shows Israel is still in God's future plans and God removes their sin (somehow)

We are not told the details , but right within the verses Rex gave us from Romans , it says God will take away their sins.

Romans 11:27 ..... And this is my covenant with them , when I take away their sins.”

As Christians this would be a mystery to us .... How does God plan to take away their sins ??

Mystery is the exact word Paul used in the verses Rex quoted from Romans 11:25 ..... I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters,

It is fair for us to be puzzled on how exactly God will do these things ...... but to deny what Paul wrote is conceited as he also mentions that in Romans 11:27 ..... so that you may not be conceited:

It is an easy error to make if we blow through Romans quickly ...... but it is an easy error to correct if we read Romans slowly and carefully

Paul lays it all out systematically for us.

Read carefully my friends.

 

[Purity]

Let's see... who were the believers among the nations indebted to? Was it Caiaphus, and the people who stoned Stephen, and all of the other unbelieving Israelites?

No. They were indebted to the believing remnant of Israelites at that time because their spiritual well-being depended upon their scriptures and doctrines of Christ (Israel's spiritual things). Therefore, they were not indebted to Israel after the flesh, but after the spirit.

But that relationship has long passed. Who has preserved the scriptures and doctrines of Christ for the past nearly 2000 years? The believing remnant among the nations. So if anything, unbelieving Jews who now turn to Christ are indebted to the remnant among the nations for preserving the scriptures and doctrine of Christ for nearly two millenia.

So now salvation is of the Gentiles and not the Jews.

In terms of a saving Gospel the spiritual things Paul spoke of in Rom 15:17 no longer applies at all.

This indebtedness you speak of must need imply the Gentiles received the Gospel first and the Jew second, would it not?

John 4:22 was the lesson taught the Samaritan (Gentile) woman after the lesson of Nicodemus (Jew).

Jew first then Gentile - Now has this changed in 2000 years?

I see how it is difficult for you to see how the Gentile took part in their spiritual things.

I will leave you with Rom 15:12 to ponder

This passage is cited in Isaiah "which shall stand for an ensign of the people", now after 2000 years has Pauls interpretation of that scripture changed?

Who does that passage speak too?

The Jew?

Or the Gentile?

Yes it concerns the Gentiles who will seek the safety and privilege of association with the "ensign", or "banner" that Yahweh would erect in the personage of His Son. The word "rise" is from the Greek anistemi: to stand up, and is used in Eph 5:14 to indicate a resurrection to a new life; in 1Th 4:14; 1Th 4:16 to rise from the dead. However in Heb 7:11; Heb 7:15 it depicts an elevation to authority. By his exemplary service and willing sacrifice, Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and elevated to assume control over all mankind (Mat 28:18; Rev 5:5).

Salvation to the Jews first and then the Gentiles.

Romans 15 has not changed at all and remains as true as the day it was written.

Regardless of those who try to remove it from the divine record.

Purity

If you didn't gather that from Gal 3:16-18 I don't know what to tell you
other than, the OT is not about the Jews or Israel it's about Christ.

It was gathered but your lengthy post must imply the need to be more precise concerning the root for if Christ is the branch he also benefited from his Fathers promise.

So Christ is not the root of the tree but the promises of God in him are that root.

To show you that the law or any convent made with Israel after the promise to Abraham in no way voids it.

In fact they stand on it Romans 4:13-18

For this reason Paul makes the foundation clear, even unto it's pertaining to the Gentiles.

Every Jew knows that the root of the bloodline began with Abraham and the promise not a "covenant" is Christ.

Correct.

A promise only involves one party that being God A covenant on the other hand is a contract between God and Israel.

It is conditional and in everyone God made with Israel Gods blessing was based on Israels keeping this covenant "the conditions of the contract" Ezek 20:5 on the day I chose Israel, what day was that? why the day He brought them out of Egypt. Notice it says nothing about Abraham or the promise. Ezek 20:7 when did he tell them to get rid of the vile images of other Gods, why when He made the covenant with them the 10 commandments.

And just as the root of Jesse has two meaning so is the promise of the "seed". One it was speaking of David and two it was pointing toward Christ. So why is it that when you read prophesies you believe it is only speaking of the first instance "the seed of Jesse?" or Israel of the flesh?

Correct also. The prophecies speak to a natural and spiritual fulfilment but why would you deny the natural only to grasp onto the spiritual?

What is most concerning in this discussion is how many OT unfulfilled prophecies which are mentioned in the last page or two and not one Christian here is speaking to them.

Not one!

I must ask why?

Is the Christian afraid? Is it a lack of knowledge? Why can they not interpret Ezek 37?

Maybe they need to return to 1 Cor 15:46 and apply the principle to their understanding.

If they cannot interpret the Word of God as a whole then the Scripture must be broken and all of us are in darkness.

Thankfully I know this is not the case with this subject.

Purity

The original question raised in the opening post of thread was .... "Who is Israel" ..... in Romans 11:26

Rom 11:26 is a thrilling and confident assertion that the divine purpose with Israel will be achieved. By "all Israel" is not meant all individual Jews, but all the tribes: thus a national redemption. The term is contrasted with the believing "remnant" of Rom 11:5, and the "some" Rom 11:14; now Paul shows that the national salvation will include the whole nation. The prophets show that the rebels will be purged out of the nation gathered in the holy land (Zec 13:9), as well as those scattered abroad (Eze 36:24-28). The conversion of the nation will then be undertaken (Zec 13:1; Eze 36:25), and the nation will be re-established "as in the days of old" (Jer 33:11; Amos 9:11). The tribal division that occurred in the days of Rehoboam and Jeroboam will be healed (Eze 37:21-22), and the people will be formed into one nation, subjected to one king, and all twelve tribes will be established in the land, according to the promise made to "father Abraham" in Gen 15:18 and the prophecy of Mic 4:2.

Notice that "all Israel" are saved, but not "all Gentiles". Some of the present-day nations will be destroyed in judgment (Isa 60:12; Rev 18:8; Eze 38:20-22), although "many" will remain to become subjects in the kingdom of God (Rom 11:23). This is a "secret" ("mystery": Rom 11:25) unknown to the world at large, but whispered into the ears of those who know and love the Truth.

I wonder if we have true lovers in this forum?

I pray so you all your sakes.

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Rex feels there is no hope for Israel because they rejected Christ

From a Christian perspective I would have to agree

Arnie, Rex said no such thing, and it does your thesis no help whatever, to put words into his mouth.

You are willingly ignorant of scripture which militates against your arguments, which Rex frequently points out. He is correct - so far - in that you doggedly hang in there with misinterpretation after misinterpretation, as if Christ had never died.

Do you understand that when Christ died, He took the imminent death of the whole human race to the grave with Him, so that those who believe in His resurrection can be raised with Him in the world to come? Every Israelite, not matter which tribe, died in Christ, and has no eternal future apart from Him. The Israelites who made their choice to disobey God during the era of the Old Covenant can look forward to resurrection unto shame. That's all.

The whole 'All Israel will be saved' statement is a reference to believers - from Adam to the last Gentile who believes and the last Israelite who believes before Christ's return. 'Israel' is first of all a people who are in a submissive and co-operative relationship with God, because God prevails.

Anyone can take scripture out of context and turn it into a doctrine, which - without the Holy Spirit correcting them - is believed by hundreds of thousands who trust their souls to their own laziness and leaders who give them what they want (instead of the truth).

I have shown you the verse where Christ promised recovering of sight to the (spiritually) blind (Israelites), but can you see its relevance?



Hi Logabe,

I don't hold with Stephen Jones' teaching as a whole, although he does have some insight about some scriptures, which is a blessing.



Hi Purity,

Show me throughout the past 2000 years when and where Ezek 37:15,16 was fulfilled? Provide the details of such a unity for God's people?

Well, Paul covered it thoroughly to my satisfaction in Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews, but feel free to disagree with him.



Hi Retrobyter,

I honestly don't know where to start from the points you've made in your posts. You do seem to be flesh-bound, if you can't see there is a difference between Jacob and Israel.

For the record, (regarding those who will see Him whom they pierced) Jesus prophesied that He would be killed by Gentiles. Was He?

My point is, we who see Him whom we pierced (Jew, Gentile and Israelite) and mourn (over sin) do see Him coming in glory. We have said, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord', with the message of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

Incidentally, I believe a better translation of that verse is, 'Being blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'. Amen. :)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

dragon .... I am convinced you completely do not understand this whole subject.

Or you are afraid to face the fact that someone has bamboozled you into thinking you have replaced Israel

Your personal attacks make a poor smokescreen to hide behind when abundant scriptures do not support your view.

 

[daq]

dragon .... I am convinced you completely do not understand this whole subject.

Or you are afraid to face the fact that someone has bamboozled you into thinking you have replaced Israel

Your personal attacks make a poor smokescreen to hide behind when abundant scriptures do not support your view.

Actually it is you and your fellow dispensationalist adherents that are teaching that you yourselves are returning at "the battle of Armageddon" to occupy the physical land of Israel and rule the nations with a rod of iron in a physical planetary worldwide empire of resurrected flesh upon the earth for a thousand literal years. If you cannot handle the Amorites, Girgashites, and tares that are already in your midst right now, (with the Rod of Iron which you have been given through the Testimony of Yeshua concerning Torah) then what makes you think you will be displacing physical Jews from their physical land in the name of Yeshua when you come back to rule the world and all those left behind "lesser brethren sheeples" who happen to make it through "the seven-year great tribulation at the end of the age of grace" you have concocted? Your flesh mindset has pulled the wool over your spiritual eyesight. It is all about loving God and serving him in his kingdom now. You are teaching replacement theology and yet do not even realize it; and your displacement factor is for a thousand years no less. :lol:

 

[Purity]

Actually it is you and your fellow dispensationalist adherents that are teaching that you yourselves are returning at "the battle of Armageddon" to occupy the physical land of Israel and rule the nations with a rod of iron in a physical planetary worldwide empire of resurrected flesh upon the earth for a thousand literal years.

Daq, if you were sitting where I am reading this above statement a number of questions would present.

1. Do you believe in a literal Armageddon?
2. Do you believe in resurrected flesh nature to be judge and changed?
3. Do you believe Yahweh has taken His eyes off Israel?
4. Have you forgotten the innumerable prophecies concerning the literal throne of David and Christ's ascension thereon?
5. Have you denied the "symbolic" 1000 year reign of Christ over the nations?

I have not placed any Scriptural references as I would like to hear your thoughts on these questions first.

If you cannot handle the Amorites, Girgashites, and tares that are already in your midst right now, (with the Rod of Iron which you have been given through the Testimony of Yeshua concerning Torah) then what makes you think you will be displacing physical Jews from their physical land in the name of Yeshua when you come back to rule the world and all those left behind "lesser brethren sheeples" who happen to make it through "the seven-year great tribulation at the end of the age of grace" you have concocted? Your flesh mindset has pulled the wool over your spiritual eyesight. It is all about loving God and serving him in his kingdom now. You are teaching replacement theology and yet do not even realize it; and your displacement factor is for a thousand years no less.

There will be no displacing Jews, quiet the contrary. I must disagree with your comment concerning the Kingdom being now (in its fullness)!

For all nations are not subject to Zion's King. Have we taken part in the campaigns of Christ to subdue and humble the nations which will end with total subjection of all peoples?

Only then Daq will "all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him" (Ps. 72:11). Then will be fulfilled Rev. 11:15 - "The kingdom of the world has become our Lord's and his Christ's,and he shall reign for the ages of the ages". They must be subjugated to Zion's glorious king the nations will be ready to receive the blessings of his reign and guidance. These blessings will be bestowed in many different ways affecting every avenue of human life. The ministers of blessing and instruction will be the glorified saints.

Now it may be Daq I have misunderstood so I eagerly await your reply.

Purity

Hi Purity,

Well, Paul covered it thoroughly to my satisfaction in Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews, but feel free to disagree with him.

Do I take this to mean you cannot show me anywhere?

Here take this verse:

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (Eze 37:22)

When has one King ruled over one united nation of Israel?

1. The year, month and day
2. The name of the King
3. How where the tribes united?

Now if as you say "Paul covered it thoroughly to my satisfaction in Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews"

By all means take me there.

Purity

 

[Rex]

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Or you are afraid to face the fact that someone has bamboozled you into thinking you have replaced Israel

Again with the twisted preseption No one has replaced Israel, that little phrase is a lie about every thing I've said.
You have simply never known who Israel "of the promise" was or is from the very beginning. Gal 4:29 Eph 2:13-15

You can't even accknowlege what I do believe, not a single word here about replacing Israel.
Gal 3:29 And If you are Christ's then you are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to the promise.
Eph 3:6
Heb 9:15
Romans 9:6-8
Gal 3:9
Gal 3:14-18
Romans 4:12-18
Romans 3:29-31
Romans 10:12
Eph 2:14-22

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Or you are afraid to face the fact that someone has bamboozled you into thinking you have replaced Israel

A, do you believe the unbelievers in Israel are Israel? Maybe that's your problem...