Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Acts 28:27
And, the same could have been said for Gentile believers of THIS generation, had Yeshua` or the Twelve had been here today! Learn from their example!
Shalom, again, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's not what it's stating at all, at least in the way you're explaining it. There is the natural seed and the spiritual seed. The red Israel refers to the natural seed, the latter refers to the spiritual seed, i.e., those of faith, the true seed of Abraham.
Your torturous logic reads a carnal twist into that scripture; no wonder you want to be done pointing it out.
No. Arnie is correct. It's not a "carnal twist of Scripture" nor is it "torturous logic." He is RIGHT ON THE MONEY! What is the "twist" is that "everything in the Scriptures, particularly the New Testament, has to be interpreted in some SPIRITUAL (falsely so called) WAY!"
Quit picking-and-choosing which verses you quote! Look at the WHOLE context of what is being talked about and READ FIRST what the author was saying before jumping on a verse or two as your "proof" and neglecting what was being said!
For instance, I find it ironic that you can't understand Romans 11 correctly because you fail to read it with Romans 9 and 10! Furthermore, even Romans chapters 9-11 must be read in the FULL context of the book of Romans! (And, no, moderator, I'm not ABOUT to quote the whole book! It wouldn't help, anyway! If one doesn't read it how it is printed now, then they will CONTINUE not to read it if I quote it. Perhaps, ESPECIALLY if I quote it!)
And then, there's the definitions of some words. "Salvation" is GREATLY misunderstood, for instance. "Salvation" (and its various forms like "save," "saves," "saved," and "saving") in the Scriptures is NOT talking about God's justification of an individual! It is talking about RESCUE!!! And, no, not a "rescue" from sin, nor is it an individual "rescue." The word, particularly where it is quoted from the Tanakh (the OT), is talking about a NATIONAL rescue of the Isra'elis from oppressing, invading, and occupying neighbor nations, and it is almost ALWAYS talking about the future when the Messiah returns! That's ESPECIALLY true for that often misused verse in Romans 10, verse 13! The proof of that is to simply go back to the passage from whence the verse was quoted, and read THAT verse in its context!
When you look at that verse in the light of its context and transfer that concept back to the NT where it was quoted, read the passage there to see if there might be some way that Paul was using the verse in a way you hadn't anticipated, in a way you didn't expect! You MIGHT just find that you've been looking at Romans 10 wrongly all along!