The Rapture is Post-trib

[rebuilder 454]

@David in NJ
First, I will respond to the ones I think you are identifying since you did not leave verses on some and chapter/verses on others. For this reason, I'd ask you to please cite the Ch. and verse for Pre-Tb rapture verses for the ones you laid out below so that I may respond to them.
1. Matthew 24. The 2 vivid comings.
2. The 2 escape verses.
3. The context of the pretrib rapture verses of peacetime and normal life of activities and commerce.
(that alone destroys all but pretrib rapture)
4. Rev 14. ( 3 gatherings)

For #4, I think you are referring to the harvest as 2 gatherings, but you labeled it as 3. Please just cite the verses you are suggesting.

Now that I have addressed current inadequacies so that I may properly respond, I will now reply to your suggestion that Matthew 25, regarding the 10 virgins, is an image of a Pre-TB rapture. I will also add into this discussion "the last supper dialogue".

Without sounding redundant of how many virgins there are and the differences between them (as you already know), I will skip to verse 5 and begin there.

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Why was the cry made at midnight? Midnight is and was a time when everyone was asleep. It is also a time when darkness is at its height.
The requirement to see at such a dark hour would depend upon burning lamps. Doesn't Amos 5:20 say,

Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

How could the cry at midnight represent a time when darkness did not envelope the land? Pre-TB would have us in heaven at Ch.4, but according to this, darkness isn't here, the seal's haven't been opened, the trumpets haven't blown, the bowls haven't been poured out, Christ has not even ascended to heaven as a lamb slain to accept the scroll, the 5th seal martyrs haven't cried out to God asking for his wrath to begin and the earth dwellers haven't announced his wrath has now begun and somehow, though Pre-TB says all this time is wrath (1st seal on), the 144k haven't been sealed for protection till after the 6th seal had been opened.

The midnight hour in this parable identifies His unexpected late arrival in complete darkness. Not a rapture in the light of day before the Day of the Lord. With that said, let me turn to 1 Thessalonians 5.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

If the Day of the Lord will not overtake us because we are children of the light, and the same day overtakes the wicked, the passage above demonstrates we are not removed from the day of darkness. For those in darkness, they cannot see when the thief comes to rob them. For those with light, the thief does not surprise them. They are prepared with lamps and oil to outlast the entire duration. Wasn't that the issue with the other 5 virgins? They did not have enough oil to go the distance.

And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The other part of the parable I'd like to focus on is this.

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

The word used for marriage is gámos – (figuratively) the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which begins with Christ glorifying all the saints (OT, NT) at His return.

It's important to recognize they go into a wedding feast because the Lord's supper alludes to this. In Matthew 26:29, Christ said,

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

For Christ to be drinking the wine, he must be reigning over the Kingdoms of the Earth. This will be fulfilled when Christ reigns as King over the nations, in his Kingdom, and He treads the grapes of wrath at the Wedding feast.

1. Rev 19:6 - Christ reigns over the earth. Also found as the 7th trumpet Rev 11:15-18
2. Rev 19:7 - The marriage feast has come. This ties in the wedding feast of the 10 virgins and the Lord's supper being in his Kingdom.
3. Rev 19:7-8 - The bride has made herself ready and now she was granted to wear white linen. She was not ready, married or wearing white linen any time before this and to suggest she is somehow raptured into Heaven before the 1st seal and made ready then and given white linen s impossible with this. The context doesn't allow it.

Barnes: And his wife hath made herself ready - By putting on her beautiful apparel and ornaments. All the preparations had been made for a permanent and uninterrupted union with its Redeemer, and the church was henceforward to be recognized as his beautiful bride, and was no more to appear as a decorated harlot

Directly after the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead are judged and we are rewarded at Christ glorious coming. That is the marriage to the bride in the time of darkness. Immediately after this, before the 1st bowl is poured on the wicked (Rev 11:18 - and destroy those that destroy the earth) the door is shut. (Rev 15:8)

Job 14:12 tells us through the HS,

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

2 Peter says in this regard,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The resurrection will not precede the Day of the Lord. Job makes it clear. 2 Timothy 4:1 makes it clear it happens when Christ reigns as did the Wedding feast. Isaiah 25 makes it clear it happens in the mountain of God.

Now, I'm running out of room on this page to type so I will relent here and wait for your reply on my previous questions.

You sure get a lot of mileage out of the word "midnight".
You jettison the parable to make "midnight" the focus.
When in actuality the setting is 100% peacetime and normal life.
Including buying and selling.
You actually changed the setting, and had no proof of any such thing.
The wedding and supper are in heaven. As depicted in rev 19 and the last supper dialogue.
Amazing how vividly the groom takes the bride to the wedding chamber , obviously in heaven, and your doctrine needs that changed to the warring King takes the saints to white horses and does a uturn to earth where postribs insist the wedding feast is.
The 10 virgin parable does not need modification.
( i know, you must modify it)

 

[rebuilder 454]

@David in NJ
First, I will respond to the ones I think you are identifying since you did not leave verses on some and chapter/verses on others. For this reason, I'd ask you to please cite the Ch. and verse for Pre-Tb rapture verses for the ones you laid out below so that I may respond to them.
1. Matthew 24. The 2 vivid comings.
2. The 2 escape verses.
3. The context of the pretrib rapture verses of peacetime and normal life of activities and commerce.
(that alone destroys all but pretrib rapture)
4. Rev 14. ( 3 gatherings)

For #4, I think you are referring to the harvest as 2 gatherings, but you labeled it as 3. Please just cite the verses you are suggesting.

Now that I have addressed current inadequacies so that I may properly respond, I will now reply to your suggestion that Matthew 25, regarding the 10 virgins, is an image of a Pre-TB rapture. I will also add into this discussion "the last supper dialogue".

Without sounding redundant of how many virgins there are and the differences between them (as you already know), I will skip to verse 5 and begin there.

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Why was the cry made at midnight? Midnight is and was a time when everyone was asleep. It is also a time when darkness is at its height.
The requirement to see at such a dark hour would depend upon burning lamps. Doesn't Amos 5:20 say,

Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

How could the cry at midnight represent a time when darkness did not envelope the land? Pre-TB would have us in heaven at Ch.4, but according to this, darkness isn't here, the seal's haven't been opened, the trumpets haven't blown, the bowls haven't been poured out, Christ has not even ascended to heaven as a lamb slain to accept the scroll, the 5th seal martyrs haven't cried out to God asking for his wrath to begin and the earth dwellers haven't announced his wrath has now begun and somehow, though Pre-TB says all this time is wrath (1st seal on), the 144k haven't been sealed for protection till after the 6th seal had been opened.

The midnight hour in this parable identifies His unexpected late arrival in complete darkness. Not a rapture in the light of day before the Day of the Lord. With that said, let me turn to 1 Thessalonians 5.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

If the Day of the Lord will not overtake us because we are children of the light, and the same day overtakes the wicked, the passage above demonstrates we are not removed from the day of darkness. For those in darkness, they cannot see when the thief comes to rob them. For those with light, the thief does not surprise them. They are prepared with lamps and oil to outlast the entire duration. Wasn't that the issue with the other 5 virgins? They did not have enough oil to go the distance.

And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

The other part of the parable I'd like to focus on is this.

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut

The word used for marriage is gámos – (figuratively) the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which begins with Christ glorifying all the saints (OT, NT) at His return.

It's important to recognize they go into a wedding feast because the Lord's supper alludes to this. In Matthew 26:29, Christ said,

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

For Christ to be drinking the wine, he must be reigning over the Kingdoms of the Earth. This will be fulfilled when Christ reigns as King over the nations, in his Kingdom, and He treads the grapes of wrath at the Wedding feast.

1. Rev 19:6 - Christ reigns over the earth. Also found as the 7th trumpet Rev 11:15-18
2. Rev 19:7 - The marriage feast has come. This ties in the wedding feast of the 10 virgins and the Lord's supper being in his Kingdom.
3. Rev 19:7-8 - The bride has made herself ready and now she was granted to wear white linen. She was not ready, married or wearing white linen any time before this and to suggest she is somehow raptured into Heaven before the 1st seal and made ready then and given white linen s impossible with this. The context doesn't allow it.

Barnes: And his wife hath made herself ready - By putting on her beautiful apparel and ornaments. All the preparations had been made for a permanent and uninterrupted union with its Redeemer, and the church was henceforward to be recognized as his beautiful bride, and was no more to appear as a decorated harlot

Directly after the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead are judged and we are rewarded at Christ glorious coming. That is the marriage to the bride in the time of darkness. Immediately after this, before the 1st bowl is poured on the wicked (Rev 11:18 - and destroy those that destroy the earth) the door is shut. (Rev 15:8)

Job 14:12 tells us through the HS,

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

2 Peter says in this regard,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The resurrection will not precede the Day of the Lord. Job makes it clear. 2 Timothy 4:1 makes it clear it happens when Christ reigns as did the Wedding feast. Isaiah 25 makes it clear it happens in the mountain of God.

Now, I'm running out of room on this page to type so I will relent here and wait for your reply on my previous questions.

QUOTE; "For Christ to be drinking the wine, he must be reigning over the Kingdoms of the Earth. This will be fulfilled when Christ reigns as King over the nations, in his Kingdom, and He treads the grapes of wrath at the Wedding feast."
Huh?
You are not aware he is CURRENTLY ruling and reigning?????
Wow, you need to look into that right away.
You never successfully reformed the 10 virgin parable to fit your doctrine.
It does not...and never will.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You are not aware he is CURRENTLY ruling and reigning?????

Christ is not ruling over the nations of the earth yet. That will happen at the 7th trumpet which is still future. I provided scripture and reasonable explanations. I also provided various commentaries. I never expected you to believe any of it. The point was, there is truth in the word, some choose to believe it and others believe what they want; even if it is not biblical.

From your replies, it seems you dont understand that the 5 wise virgins go with him into a wedding supper. The same example is given after the 7th trumpet when the bride makes herself ready and the wedding feast commences. Just as I provided examples of Job 14:12 with 2 Peter making a Pre-TB rapture impossible because the bible makes it so. We can also look 2 Tim 4:1 where Paul states we receive our change to immortality at Christ coming in his Kingdom which is exactly what the 7th trumpet says in Rev 11.

I think you are more focused on defense than learning truth. I am not and I'm willing to always learn something new for the sake of understanding. That's the difference. I'll speak to you with a warm heart. You speak to me in disrespect as you do others. Do you serve God or your own belly?

You never successfully reformed the 10 virgin parable to fit your doctrine.

If you cannot understand the bridegroom comes at a late unexpected hour when everyone sleeps (no, not literal sleep), then I'd suggest prayer and study. As I stated previously in an older reply, you would have the 5 wise virgins meet the bridegroom in the light of the day before anything bad happens. That is not how its described, not how Noah's life was nor Lot's. You mentioned them and took their context from Matthew 24 which is "after the tribulation" and yet you try to apply it to Pre-TB. Do not forget,

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What day and hour? The day and hour that he just spoke about that he references Noah and Lot.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

You cannot steal a snippet from Matthew 24 and apply it elsewhere when Christ tells us when it will happen. That is not rightly dividing the word. And you cannot claim Matthew 24 is for the Jews and then use parts of it for a Pre-TB rapture.

 

[PinSeeker]

Those obedient to God are deceived.

God's elect are not; He sustains them to the end. And "after the thousand years are ended" (Revelation 20;3) necessarily means God has saved all His people, His elect, at that point ~ brought all the Gentiles in and removed the partial hardening now on Israel. And at that point, Satan will be released, but only for a little while, for the sake of God's elect.

You claimed there had to be sinners hanging around so Satan could deceive them

Not at all. Wow.

What I did say, Timtofly, is that, regardless of anyone's understanding of the millennium, Revelation 20:3 clearly says that during the millennium, Satan cannot deceive the nations until the thousand years are ended, which clearly is saying that when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released for a little while to do so. But if we take the premillennial position (and the postmillennial view actually) and claim that all of the events of Revelation 20 are chronologically after the events of Revelation 19, then since Christ destroyed all his enemies ~ including Satan ~ by the end of Revelation 19, and there would be no one ~ including Satan ~ to release from being bound to deceive the nations. So the premillennial view introduces an irresolvable dilemma with regard to Revelation 20.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

So the premillennial view introduces an irresolvable dilemma with regard to Revelation 20.

Only a strawman dilemma. One of your own making. Satan deceives those obedient to God. Listening to Satan leads to disobedience. When Satan is loosed, he does deceive. He is not said to gather those decieved by other means. He gathers a following of those decieved directly by himself.

Premill is not post mill, in any shape or form. Jesus rules in person on the earth. That is not a post mill description. The beginning and the end is the time Satan is bound, not the time Jesus is on the earth, nor even the time of ruling and reigning. Jesus' reign is eternal, not limited to a thousand years. Jesus being on earth is eternal, not limited to a thousand years. Those who reign with Christ has a beginning, when they were given the first resurrection. The Millennium itself is the time Satan is bound. Those on earth keep on living after the thousand years are over, and never die the second death. They already died the first death before the thousand years even started. Do you have some type of third death in mind for them to experience to cause a dilemma?

That is the point Amil deny about those living in the Millennium. If a person dies, that is their final death. There is no more life after disobedience to God. John never explains that any one dies, but Isaiah 65 clearly states a cursed soul can die, but does not say where that soul goes upon death. John points out the LOF is a reality before Revelation 20, but your theology denies Scripture, and you are blind to that fact. You cannot see that the beast and FP are in the LOF during the same period of time Satan is bound in the pit.

 

[PinSeeker]

Only a strawman dilemma.

In the opinion of one (you) who cannot credibly reconcile his view with Scripture. This is true, generally speaking, of pre- (and post-) millennialists as a whole. It is what it is, Timtofly.

Listening to Satan leads to disobedience.

It can, certainly. But Satan cannot do anything at all without God's allowing it. And in the case of "when the thousand years is ended," Satan will not be able to deceive God's elect, because He ~ God ~ will protect them from deception. And the time that God allots for this is limited for the sake of the elect. This is God's promise.

Premill is not post mill, in any shape or form.

Well, yes, it's quite different with regard to the timing of the millennium (obviously ~ the 'pre' and 'post' make it so), but it has several of the same terrible misunderstandings as premillennialism. And one of the biggest is that it understands all of the events of Revelation 20 to be chronologically after all of the events of Revelation 19.

Those who reign with Christ has a beginning, when they were given the first resurrection. The Millennium itself is the time Satan is bound. Those on earth keep on living after the thousand years are over, and never die the second death.

We agree on this in principle, as I have said.

They already died the first death before the thousand years even started.

Very much disagree. Both premillennialism and postmillennialism suppose this... incorrectly.

Do you have some type of third death in mind for them to experience to cause a dilemma?

LOL! No, Timtofly, I don't. LOL!

That is the point Amil deny about those living in the Millennium. If a person dies, that is their final death. There is no more life after disobedience to God.

Yeah so Amillennialists don't deny this in any shape, form, or fashion. They... I... would absolutely affirm these things; it's the nature of these things that is the point of disagreement between us. You don't even know what you're arguing against, Timtofly. You just have your (very) false caricatures that you hold on to and try to foist onto amillennialists, and that's what makes any discussion with you... well, endless and pointless, That's been painfully obvious throughout this discussion.

... your theology denies Scripture, and you are blind to that fact.

LOL! I'm very much okay with you thinking that. I literally have no concern about you thinking that whatsoever. LOL!

You cannot see that the beast and FP are in the LOF during the same period of time Satan is bound in the pit.

People "see" lots of things... LOL!

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

And one of the biggest is that it understands all of the events of Revelation 20 to be chronologically after all of the events of Revelation 19.

How when the point is the Second Coming is in relationship to the Second Coming?

You claim the Second Coming is post the Millennium. So does post mill. You all deny Jesus is on the earth in Revelation 20.

You just have your (very) false caricatures that you hold on to and try to foist onto amillennialists

You mean that Strawman point that Revelation 20 is not chronologically after Revelation 19? I force that false caricature on you? You have made that the whole point of contention. After the Second Coming, no one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There is no more sin, and natural death, from decay. So when any human disobeys, it is instant death. There is no grace and rehabilitation. The wages of sin and disobedience is death. That will not change. What happens after the Second Coming, is that Adam's punishment is over. That is why the Millennium has not started yet.

 

[PinSeeker]

You all deny Jesus is on the earth in Revelation 20.

No, we don't, Timtofly. And here is yet another of your false caricatures... either intentional or just a terrible misunderstanding of what you think you disagree with so strongly. Thus, my statement prior to this and now again that you don't even understand what you're arguing against.

Revelation 19:11-21 is the sixth of seven "judgment cycles," and Revelation 20:1-21:8 is the seventh. As I have said, in the later cycles ~ and these are the last two ~ the imagery concentrates more and more intensively on the second coming and its immediate precursors. In Revelation 19:11-21, all the events are actually part of the second coming. This is not the case with Revelation 20. In the first six verses of Revelation 20 is Jesus not physically on earth; His return has not yet occurred. This is the millennial reign of Christ, in which He is in heaven seated at the right hand of God. With regard to Revelation 19, this millennial reign is chronologically before and leading up to the events of Revelation 19:11-21. Thus my statement previously and now again that the events of Revelation 20 are not to be understood as being entirely chronologically after the events of Revelation 19:11-21; supposing so is obviously terribly wrong.

Christ returns to defeat Satan once and for all in Revelation 20:7-10, which is a description of the same events as Revelation 19:11-21, and executes judgment on Satan... "the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet... were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur" (Revelation 19:20) and "thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 20 goes on to describe the final Judgment, which is not described in Revelation 19 but is properly placed at the end, just after the events described in verses 11-21. And Revelation 21:1-8 is a vision of the events just after all this, the new heaven and new earth, where all things are finally made new and eternity begins.

You mean that Strawman point that Revelation 20 is not chronologically after Revelation 19?

LOL! See above. It is what it is. A "strawman point"... I guess you mean "invalid," but no, it is what it is.

I force that false caricature on you?

That what is described in Revelation 20:1-6 is not chronologically after the events described in Revelation 19:11-22 is true. It is what it is.

You have made that the whole point of contention.

No, but it's a big part of what exposes the premillennial view as incorrect... one of, if not the, most glaring points (among the several that I bulleted above) that make the premillennial view untenable and indefensible.

After the Second Coming, no one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Hmm, well, specifically regarding God's elect, agreed. We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Now, after the final Judgment, after which those who are in Adam's corruptible flesh are sent away by Jesus and obediently depart and enter into eternal judgment/punishment, yes, after that, then, yes, all sorrow and sighing will flee away, and in the new heaven and new earth, there will never be any more sin for all eternity.

There is no more sin, and natural death, from decay. So when any human disobeys, it is instant death. There is no grace and rehabilitation. The wages of sin and disobedience is death. That will not change. What happens after the Second Coming, is that Adam's punishment is over. That is why the Millennium has not started yet.

Hmm, you're confusing the millennium with eternity, Timtofly. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

No, we don't, Timtofly. And here is yet another of your false caricatures... either intentional or just a terrible misunderstanding of what you think you disagree with so strongly. Thus, my statement prior to this and now again that you don't even understand what you're arguing against.

Of course you do:

This is the millennial reign of Christ, in which He is in heaven seated at the right hand of God.

If Jesus is on the earth, it is during the chapter, not after the chapter.

I pointed out you deny Jesus is on the earth. As you do clearly state He is not.

You refuted your own objection to my post in the very same post.

The point is that Jesus is on earth during the Millennium. That is the topic of the chapter. The Second Coming is not mentioned once in the chapter. That Jesus is on the earth is what you deny, because you claim Jesus is in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

Hmm, you're confusing the millennium with eternity, Timtofly. Wow.

Eternity is currently outside of creation. You will never visit Eternity. You will remain in the next creation as part of creation.

Your premise is wrong.

I think you are thinking about Revelation 21. No, Revelation 20 is not the same period of time as Revelation 21. Revelation 21 is not eternity.

 

[PinSeeker]

You said, "You all deny Jesus is on the earth in Revelation 20." I said, "No we don't," and you said "Of course you do," offering as proof me saying, "This is the millennial reign of Christ, in which He is in heaven seated at the right hand of God." And what I'm talking about specifically with regard to Revelation 20, Timtofly, is Revelation 20:1-6. Revelation 20:7-10 marks the return of Christ ~ to earth ~ to defeat Satan (which is parallel to Revelation 19:17-20), and then He sits for the final Judgment ~ also here on earth ~ in Revelation 20:11-15. So, what you say about amillennialists is abjectly wrong; the accusation you level at amillennialists abjectly false. Christ is not on earth for the entirety of Revelation 20, but He is on earth from Revelation 20:7 to the end (and after).

If Jesus is on the earth, it is during the chapter, not after the chapter.

Yes, agreed... As I literally just said (yet again), yes, Jesus is on earth during Revelation 20... from verse 7 through 15.

I pointed out you deny Jesus is on the earth.

Yes you did, and I pointed out that you were wrong to point that out. LOL!!!

As you do clearly state He is not.

I do not. See above.

You refuted your own objection to my post in the very same post.

Did absolutely no such thing.

The point is that Jesus is on earth during the Millennium.

I know that's your point, and it's wrong. :) His millennial reign is from heaven, and described in the first six verses of Revelation 20. Jesus is with us in the Spirit through the millennium, just as He said He would be at the end of Matthew. And in the same way ~ in the Spirit ~ we are now seated with Him in the heavenly places, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2. But He is not on earth in person in the millennium (Revelation 20:1-6). He will return, and we see that happening at the end of Revelation 19 and again in the middle of Revelation 20 (verses 7-10).

Eternity is currently outside of creation.

Well, eternity is the age to come.

You will never visit Eternity.

LOL! Eternity is not a place. Eternity is the age to come. And we all will spend eternity in one of two places. :) Either with Christ in the new heaven and new earth, or... somewhere else.

You will remain in the next creation as part of creation.

Well, right, but there will not be a new creation, but creation will be made new. That's what God says in Revelation 21, not "Behold, I am making all new things," but rather, "Behold, I am making all things new." And I will be a co-heir of the Kingdom of God with Christ. I hope you will be, too. :)

Your premise is wrong.

You apparently have no idea which end is up, Timtofly. :)

I think you are thinking about Revelation 21.

Well, eventually, yes, after the Judgment. Heaven and earth will be one. All things will be made new.

No, Revelation 20 is not the same period of time as Revelation 21.

I... didn't say any such thing. But Revelation 21:1-8 describes the events that will take place immediately after the final Judgment that Christ executes and the sending away of the wicked at the end of Revelation 20.

Revelation 21 is not eternity.

Well, Revelation 21 is Revelation 21. :) But it does describe, in verses 1-8, the beginning of eternity and the new heaven and new earth.

Wow. Just... wow. Again, I want to ask, what color are the skies in your world, Timtofly?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ is not on earth for the entirety of Revelation 20, but He is on earth from Revelation 20:7 to the end (and after).

Well that is your opinion, and I pointed out your opinion. There is no proof Christ comes to earth at any point in the chapter.

I cannot agree with your insertion of a point already made clear in the previous chapter.

Satan was defeated and bound in the pit.

Then in the same chapter defeated again. Not because of a Second Coming, but because he was no longer in the pit.

So you claim verse 7:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

How is that the Second Coming of Jesus? That is the second coming of Satan, after being bound for a literal Millennium. The city in the chapter is where Jesus has been reigning from with the camp of the saints. Those saints reigning on the earth with Jesus for this same Millennium.

Any other opinion is adding to God's Word. No verse in that chapter states Jesus is reigning in heaven. Then starts reigning on earth. After Satan is cast into the LOF, heaven and earth no longer exist as we know them. Only the LOF and the GWT that has been there since Genesis 1:1 is still in existence. Then the next thing we see is the new creation, the new heaven and earth. So while Jesus was on the earth the whole of chapter 20, next we still see Him on the new earth. Those on the old earth are still all with Jesus on the new earth. There are still nations that were at one moment on the old earth, now they are on the new earth. The only difference is that old Jerusalem, and the camp of the saints is replaced by the New Jerusalem, and the new earth seems thousands of times larger than the old earth. It would seem the new reality expanded to make room for the New Jerusalem.

But that is just simple reading comprehension. You claim you know more about things than John did, and that we should not see each chapter in order, but take some modern man's opinion and exchange it for the Word of God.

Why did eternity not start in Genesis 1:1? That is your claim about Revelation 21:1. They both are the beginning of a heaven and earth. What makes one eternity over the other? Are you claiming eternity started twice? How can eternity even have a beginning? In the OT and NT this heaven and earth are said to be eternal as long as they exist. Are you making a bold statement and declaring the next heaven and earth will be eternal even if they are replaced as well for something even better? Are you in the group that claims there was a heaven and earth prior to this one that was eternal as well, but now is not? How eternal is your eternity. This one was only around for about 8,000 years. How long was the last one around for? Now, do you have a verse that states eternity will be eternal this time? So when you say God exists outside of creation, and that is not your eternity, what do you call being outside of time and space, ie this creation, this reality?

If Scripture claims that Jesus the Word is the beginning and the end, then eternity is Jesus, but inside Jesus is reality with a beginning and an end. You cannot become Jesus and exist in eternity, as you will only ever be in Jesus and not outside of Jesus. That is all I am saying. But you must think otherwise. Seems the LOF will be eternal. But in comparing creation with creation, there would always be a beginning and an end. Because Jesus does declare to be both.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Christ is not ruling over the nations of the earth yet. That will happen at the 7th trumpet which is still future. I provided scripture and reasonable explanations. I also provided various commentaries. I never expected you to believe any of it. The point was, there is truth in the word, some choose to believe it and others believe what they want; even if it is not biblical.

From your replies, it seems you dont understand that the 5 wise virgins go with him into a wedding supper. The same example is given after the 7th trumpet when the bride makes herself ready and the wedding feast commences. Just as I provided examples of Job 14:12 with 2 Peter making a Pre-TB rapture impossible because the bible makes it so. We can also look 2 Tim 4:1 where Paul states we receive our change to immortality at Christ coming in his Kingdom which is exactly what the 7th trumpet says in Rev 11.

I think you are more focused on defense than learning truth. I am not and I'm willing to always learn something new for the sake of understanding. That's the difference. I'll speak to you with a warm heart. You speak to me in disrespect as you do others. Do you serve God or your own belly?

If you cannot understand the bridegroom comes at a late unexpected hour when everyone sleeps (no, not literal sleep), then I'd suggest prayer and study. As I stated previously in an older reply, you would have the 5 wise virgins meet the bridegroom in the light of the day before anything bad happens. That is not how its described, not how Noah's life was nor Lot's. You mentioned them and took their context from Matthew 24 which is "after the tribulation" and yet you try to apply it to Pre-TB. Do not forget,

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What day and hour? The day and hour that he just spoke about that he references Noah and Lot.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

You cannot steal a snippet from Matthew 24 and apply it elsewhere when Christ tells us when it will happen. That is not rightly dividing the word. And you cannot claim Matthew 24 is for the Jews and then use parts of it for a Pre-TB rapture.

You just proved their are 2 comings.
Oh...wait ....you left out the TIME FRAME. You left it out to support the erroneous doctrine you are trying to defend.
So yes
Leave out theTIME FRAME, Ahem, "BEFORE THE FLOOD" and pooof! Your doctrine rings so true.
Not really. It just made a big thud.
Omissions are your friend.

Amazing how The Virgin parable, with all the components, is glossed over, and you make "midnight" as the pivot point to modify and reframe

 

[PinSeeker]

Well that is your opinion, and I pointed out your opinion.

Sure, and I have said, many times, that I'm fine with you calling it that. Your opinion is yours, and my opinion is mine. All good, right?

There is no proof Christ comes to earth at any point in the chapter.

...because you think He already is on earth because of what you just read in chapter 19, because you think that everything described in chapter 20 in its entirety takes place chronologically after everything in chapter 19. I understand, as I have said many times... And have stated (and supported) my disagreement with that opinion.

I cannot agree with your insertion of a point already made clear in the previous chapter.

I understand. And am no longer concerned about what you can or cannot do. :) With all due respect, of course. :)

Satan was defeated and bound in the pit. Then in the same chapter defeated again. Not because of a Second Coming, but because he was no longer in the pit.

Well, here again, you're intimating that what happens in the first few verses in chapter 20 is after what was just described in chapter 19, and again ~ yet again ~ I say that chapter 20 is another vision entirely, another judgment cycle, from the one just finished in chapter 19, and the event of verses 1-6 of chapter 20 represent a "restart," of sorts, a different vision (the seventh and final vision) conveying the events of a time period well before that of Revelation 19:11-20 and leading up to the same conclusion and beyond. This is the pattern of Revelation from chapter 6 (starting with the seven seals) through the first part of chapter 21 (ending with the new heaven and new earth, God making all things new).

So you claim verse 7: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," How is that the Second Coming of Jesus? That is the second coming of Satan, after being bound for a literal Millennium.

Well, no, I actually said ~ again, several times ~ that we see it in verse 7 through 10, not really naming a specific verse, but rather in that time frame. Jesus is the One who defeats Satan here and ultimately throws him "into the lake of fire and sulfur." If you really want to pick something specific out regarding Christ's actual return, I would point to verse 9, where "fire came down from heaven and consumed" Satan and all his... minions. Our God, as I hope you are well aware, is, spiritually and symbolically speaking, a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:23; Hebrews 12:29).

The city in the chapter is where Jesus has been reigning from with the camp of the saints. Those saints reigning on the earth with Jesus for this same Millennium.

You're more than welcome to that opinion. :)

Any other opinion is adding to God's Word.

And that one, too... you're welcome to that opinion... :)

You claim you know more about things than John did...

Pfffft. No, I "claim" ~ submit; assert ~ that you're not understanding John correctly and the visions he was given and how he related them to us. You say the same to me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. :)

...take some modern man's opinion and exchange it for the Word of God.

Ridiculous. See directly above.

Okay, well, on that note, it seems a good place to stop; that's quite enough repetitive back and forth. In my... you know... opinion... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Amazing how The Virgin parable, with all the components, is glossed over, and you make "midnight" as the pivot point to modify and reframe

I know you're conversing with another poster here, Rebuilder, but just a small interjection, if I may. Lots of folks make more of ~ in different ways ~ "The Virgin parable" than it's meant to convey... :) But, that's certainly not meant to "devalue" (or make less of it somehow) that parable that Jesus told (or anything else He said for that matter), in any way.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know you're conversing with another poster here, Rebuilder, but just a small interjection, if I may. Lots of folks make more of ~ in different ways ~ "The Virgin parable" than it's meant to convey... :) But, that's certainly not meant to "devalue" (or make less of it somehow) that parable that Jesus told (or anything else He said for that matter), in any way.

Grace and peace to you.

True.
The parables have components.
They are a story within a story.
I truly believe they are a gift to us.
I need to submit to the lesson/ meaning in the story.
There is no other way.
Men can make them say pretty much what they want. Unlimited misuse and reframing is possible.
But what is the point?
( not saying you do that)

 

[Timtofly]

Well, no, I actually said ~ again, several times ~ that we see it in verse 7 through 10, not really naming a specific verse, but rather in that time frame. Jesus is the One who defeats Satan here and ultimately throws him "into the lake of fire and sulfur." If you really want to pick something specific out regarding Christ's actual return, I would point to verse 9, where "fire came down from heaven and consumed" Satan and all his... minions. Our God, as I hope you are well aware, is, spiritually and symbolically speaking, a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:23; Hebrews 12:29).

And it does not say Jesus defeats Satan. Here is the verse:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

It does not even mention the angel that bound him earlier in the chapter. And Satan was not consumed by fire. It also states that the beast and FP are already in the LOF.

If you can assume that Jesus defeats Satan, I can point out where Jesus defeated them before the thousand years even started, without assuming anything.

It is your argument that assumes Revelation 19 does not happen prior to Revelation 20. I am not assuming it does. That is how it is written. I don't have to assume you will answer this post with a chronological answer. That is how online forums work.

When it comes to your core amil belief, you have to assume Revelation 20:1-3 has to take place thousands of years ago. So here is the thing. You accept Jesus was on the earth in the first 3 verses, but then leaves and comes back, just like Satan left and came back. But the thousand years is not about Jesus, as His reign is eternal. The thousand years is about Satan being bound and people resurrected prior to the thousand years. The second point you also have to change. So you have changed the chronological order of Revelation. You change the point those people are resurrected at the start and live on earth the entire thousand years. You deny Satan was bound for a literal thousand years, so obviously no one can live longer as in thousands of years. You assume Jesus both leaves and comes back in the very same chapter. You deny the beast and the FP were in the LOF that whole 1,000 years, while Satan was bound in the pit.

You have literally explained away the whole point of the chapter. That is Jesus remaining on the earth during that literal thousand years. That is the only chapter in Revelation that makes sense that at the 7th Trumpet all nations are now under the kingship of Jesus.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

We are told this and then chapters 12 - 19 interrupt the whole point. We finally are told that some rule with Jesus as King for a thousand years, and Amil take that away, and teach something entirely different. Revelation 21 does not count, because that is a totally different heaven and earth. The 7th Trumpet was pointing out this current heaven and earth. So do you also claim the 7th Trumpet is after the start of Revelation 21? Or did the 7th Trumpet sound in the first century?

 

[PinSeeker]

The parables have components. They are a story within a story.

I think that sentiment is a dangerous path to start and/or continue down. :)

I truly believe they are a gift to us.

This is true, generally speaking, of all of Scripture.

I need to submit to the lesson/ meaning in the story.

That might be interesting, but I think it can be summed up in just a few words... maybe even one. You guys were/are talking about Matthew 24: 36-44, right? And I'll be honest with you right now ahead of time: that word ~ and certainly, you can call this my opinion ~ is not "rapture..." or "first second coming." :) Wait... "first second coming"... 1, 2, 3... Yeah sorry, three words on that one... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

And it does not say Jesus defeats Satan.

The fire consuming Satan and throwing him into the lake of fire and sulfur most certainly indicates his total and final defeat of Satan.

If you can assume that Jesus defeats Satan...

I'm not assuming anything.

...I can point out where Jesus defeated them before the thousand years even started, without assuming anything.

You may do whatever you want. :)

It is your argument that assumes Revelation 19 does not happen prior to Revelation 20. I am not assuming it does.

I know. I am fully aware that is your assumption. :)

So here is the thing. You accept Jesus was on the earth in the first 3 verses, but then leaves and comes back...

No I don't... :) I guess you assume that I assume that... :) But no...

You have literally explained away the whole point of the chapter.

In your opinion. I get that... :)

That is Jesus remaining on the earth during that literal thousand years. That is the only chapter in Revelation that makes sense that at the 7th Trumpet all nations are now under the kingship of Jesus.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

We are told this and then chapters 12 - 19 interrupt the whole point. We finally are told that some rule with Jesus as King for a thousand years...

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, I've listened to your opinions quite long enough. :) And... yours to mine, I think.

Revelation 21 does not count, because that is a totally different heaven and earth.

I'm not sure if you're applying this to me or to you, Timtofly. Nor do I really care... I'll just say that Revelation 21 certainly "counts" :) and that this is the ultimate promise that will be fulfilled by God, to make all things new (not "all new things").

The 7th Trumpet was pointing out this current heaven and earth.

And I say the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11... and the seventh bowl of Revelation 16... and the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18... and the latter few verses of Revelation 19 (17-21)... are equivalent, or parallel to ~ the same thing as, basically ~ the end of the millennium, "the thousand years," of Revelation 20. I well understand that you will disagree vehemently with all of that, but that's... okay with me. :)

So do you also claim the 7th Trumpet is after the start of Revelation 21? Or did the 7th Trumpet sound in the first century?

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, I've listened to your opinions quite long enough. :) And... yours to mine, I think.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You just proved their are 2 comings.
Oh...wait ....you left out the TIME FRAME. You left it out to support the erroneous doctrine you are trying to defend.
So yes
Leave out theTIME FRAME, Ahem, "BEFORE THE FLOOD" and pooof! Your doctrine rings so true.
Not really. It just made a big thud.
Omissions are your friend.

Amazing how The Virgin parable, with all the components, is glossed over, and you make "midnight" as the pivot point to modify and reframe

1. You accuse without scripture. I post scripture and commentaries.
2. You reply with imaginative insults. I will still speak to you in love.
3. You can have an opinion. But it is just an opinion if not backed up with scripture.

The Bible speaks of only 1 more coming. 1 more descending from heaven. Not 2 or more.
1. 1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

2. Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

3. Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things. Nothing is restored on a Pre-Tb timeline.

Luke 21:28 says when Christ returns,
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

What is our redemption? Romans 8:23

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

That places the resurrection at his 2nd advent in his Kingdom per the Luke 21 context "after the tribulation (Matthew 24)". And Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we have the HS sealing us till that day.

The flood is God's wrath, I am not ignoring anything. His outpoured wrath is in the bowls where the door is shut. That is where there are no other chances to repent. That is when he destroys those that destroy the earth - Rev 11:18. The seals are not God's wrath. The trumpets are not his out poured wrath.

In regards to the 10 virgins, perhaps that is all you got from what I wrote. The context of the entire parable was that oil is needed as well as not to give into the lusts and vanities of life. There were rewards and punishments that follow our choices. But you seem to ignore the part about Christ coming at a late hour when everyone sleeps. I also had said, the wedding feast that they go into is the same as the wedding feast in Rev 19 and linked it to parts of the Last supper. Perhaps you didn't understand that? I also mentioned the bride making herself ready and she was only then allowed to wear white linen which means, she wasn't wearing white linen 7 years prior and she wasn't "ready" 7 years prior because she was still a harlot. She is not ready till the 7th trumpet is blown as shown in that chapter.

If you'd like to discuss Ch 19, I'd be more than willing. But I ask you come with facts and scripture. Not opinion and insults.
Please read the book of James. Since I asked you to before and it appears you did not, I'll post it below for your edification.

3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can guide the whole animal. 4Consider ships as well. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot is inclined.
5In the same way, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it boasts of great things. Consider how small a spark sets a great forest ablaze. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body. It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.a
7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9With the tongue we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be! 11Can both fresh water and salt waterb flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt springc produce fresh water.