The Rapture is Post-trib

[No Pre-TB]

I know you're conversing with another poster here, Rebuilder, but just a small interjection, if I may. Lots of folks make more of ~ in different ways ~ "The Virgin parable" than it's meant to convey... But, that's certainly not meant to "devalue" (or make less of it somehow) that parable that Jesus told (or anything else He said for that matter), in any way.

Grace and peace to you.

True statement. But he is only mentioning one thing I had said that he doesn't like because it wont fit with his eschatology. That is fine. I posted before this to him and I respond to that question. The wedding feast, the time of the feast, the door closing, etc etc etc.

Disagreements are ok. We will talk through them as long as insults are not brought forth =P

 

[Timtofly]

The fire consuming Satan and throwing him into the lake of fire and sulfur most certainly indicates his total and final defeat of Satan.

"to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Still not seeing how Satan is consumed by fire. My imagination is not working as well as yours. I see Satan, and I see them. If Satan was defeated in the first century, should he not currently be in the LOF?

 

[PinSeeker]

"to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Still not seeing how Satan is consumed by fire.

I'm quite sure you don't. And still won't even after I clarify, but here you go:

"...fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are..."

Jesus, Who is God, is the consuming ~ "devouring" ~ fire. At least you don't refute that... And, Satan is the one who is consumed ~ "devoured." The pronoun 'they' at the beginning of verse 9, Timtofly, refers directly to a.) 'Satan' in verse 7 and b.) 'them' whom Satan gathers for battle (as a general gathers his troops) in verse 8 his minions.

And... now I'm sure that you still don't, and will go into all-out denial mode, but that's... okay. And you can keep lobbing me those softballs and watching me go yard on you every time if you want...

My imagination is not working as well as yours.

LOL!

If Satan was defeated in the first century, should he not currently be in the LOF?

He was not defeated in full. His final defeat was made a certainty by Jesus on the cross, but he was not defeated in full. He was ~ and yes, I know you disagree - bound, with regard to deceiving the nations, which means his ability from then to now to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations is nil. He will be loosed for a little while, as you know. No Satan is not currently in the "lake of fire." But when Jesus returns and exacts his final defeat on him, he will be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

And... now I'm sure that you still don't, and will go into all-out denial mode, but that's... okay. And you can keep lobbing me those softballs and watching me go yard on you every time if you want...

Not denial. Just plain old English. Satan deceieved himself?

 

[rebuilder 454]

1. You accuse without scripture. I post scripture and commentaries.
2. You reply with imaginative insults. I will still speak to you in love.
3. You can have an opinion. But it is just an opinion if not backed up with scripture.

The Bible speaks of only 1 more coming. 1 more descending from heaven. Not 2 or more.
1. 1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

2. Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

3. Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things. Nothing is restored on a Pre-Tb timeline.

Luke 21:28 says when Christ returns,
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

What is our redemption? Romans 8:23

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

That places the resurrection at his 2nd advent in his Kingdom per the Luke 21 context "after the tribulation (Matthew 24)". And Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we have the HS sealing us till that day.

The flood is God's wrath, I am not ignoring anything. His outpoured wrath is in the bowls where the door is shut. That is where there are no other chances to repent. That is when he destroys those that destroy the earth - Rev 11:18. The seals are not God's wrath. The trumpets are not his out poured wrath.

In regards to the 10 virgins, perhaps that is all you got from what I wrote. The context of the entire parable was that oil is needed as well as not to give into the lusts and vanities of life. There were rewards and punishments that follow our choices. But you seem to ignore the part about Christ coming at a late hour when everyone sleeps. I also had said, the wedding feast that they go into is the same as the wedding feast in Rev 19 and linked it to parts of the Last supper. Perhaps you didn't understand that? I also mentioned the bride making herself ready and she was only then allowed to wear white linen which means, she wasn't wearing white linen 7 years prior and she wasn't "ready" 7 years prior because she was still a harlot. She is not ready till the 7th trumpet is blown as shown in that chapter.

If you'd like to discuss Ch 19, I'd be more than willing. But I ask you come with facts and scripture. Not opinion and insults.
Please read the book of James. Since I asked you to before and it appears you did not, I'll post it below for your edification.

3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can guide the whole animal. 4Consider ships as well. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot is inclined.
5In the same way, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it boasts of great things. Consider how small a spark sets a great forest ablaze. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body. It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.a
7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9With the tongue we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be! 11Can both fresh water and salt waterb flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt springc produce fresh water.

Too funny

I called you out for omitting the time frame of Lot and Noah
You answered in generalities... and again... OMITTED the time frame of the rapture BY Jesus.
All rapture verses are pretrib with the setting of peacetime, commerce, and normal life.
But hey change it around or believe it. It is your call.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I think that sentiment is a dangerous path to start and/or continue down.


This is true, generally speaking, of all of Scripture.


That might be interesting, but I think it can be summed up in just a few words... maybe even one. You guys were/are talking about Matthew 24: 36-44, right? And I'll be honest with you right now ahead of time: that word ~ and certainly, you can call this my opinion ~ is not "rapture..." or "first second coming." Wait... "first second coming"... 1, 2, 3... Yeah sorry, three words on that one...

Grace and peace to you.

i don't know your position.
If you struggle with the time frame Jesus laid out in the rapture then omit the rapture verses.
BTW what dangerous sentiment is involved in the parables?
Are you not aware that each has a message?

 

[rebuilder 454]

1. You accuse without scripture. I post scripture and commentaries.
2. You reply with imaginative insults. I will still speak to you in love.
3. You can have an opinion. But it is just an opinion if not backed up with scripture.

The Bible speaks of only 1 more coming. 1 more descending from heaven. Not 2 or more.
1. 1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

2. Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

3. Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He cannot leave Heaven till the restoration of all things. Nothing is restored on a Pre-Tb timeline.

Luke 21:28 says when Christ returns,
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

What is our redemption? Romans 8:23

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

That places the resurrection at his 2nd advent in his Kingdom per the Luke 21 context "after the tribulation (Matthew 24)". And Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we have the HS sealing us till that day.

The flood is God's wrath, I am not ignoring anything. His outpoured wrath is in the bowls where the door is shut. That is where there are no other chances to repent. That is when he destroys those that destroy the earth - Rev 11:18. The seals are not God's wrath. The trumpets are not his out poured wrath.

In regards to the 10 virgins, perhaps that is all you got from what I wrote. The context of the entire parable was that oil is needed as well as not to give into the lusts and vanities of life. There were rewards and punishments that follow our choices. But you seem to ignore the part about Christ coming at a late hour when everyone sleeps. I also had said, the wedding feast that they go into is the same as the wedding feast in Rev 19 and linked it to parts of the Last supper. Perhaps you didn't understand that? I also mentioned the bride making herself ready and she was only then allowed to wear white linen which means, she wasn't wearing white linen 7 years prior and she wasn't "ready" 7 years prior because she was still a harlot. She is not ready till the 7th trumpet is blown as shown in that chapter.

If you'd like to discuss Ch 19, I'd be more than willing. But I ask you come with facts and scripture. Not opinion and insults.
Please read the book of James. Since I asked you to before and it appears you did not, I'll post it below for your edification.

3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can guide the whole animal. 4Consider ships as well. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot is inclined.
5In the same way, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it boasts of great things. Consider how small a spark sets a great forest ablaze. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body. It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.a
7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9With the tongue we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be! 11Can both fresh water and salt waterb flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt springc produce fresh water.

All you are doing is pure deflection.
If you are so much greater in character than me, then brag on and paint yourself as superior and Christlike.
Look up the "Beam in eye" dynamic then get back with something on topic.
You seem to have some "wounded spirit" that makes you think you need to correct me in your offence over nothing.
Actually you need to get a few verses that are on topic, as you guys OMIT the verses i am pointing out.
You cant reconcile a single one, and invoke as much off topic generalities as possible to basically not answer the fact of the rapture time frame by Jesus. ...Oh the blindness!
NONE of you have addressed the time frame JESUS laid out.

Concerning the "one coming" error, Rev 14 is not the coming on white horses, nor can any of you reconcile that coming by Jesus gathering the jewish harvest.( VIVIDLY Depicted AS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE CONFUSED WITH rev 19.)
Your deal is so debunked and that is WHY you do what you do.
1,Omit.
2,Throw out generalities.
3,Attack your opponents character with paranoid accusations.
4,Repeat.

You can not reconcile those verses.
That is why they are avoided.

 

[rebuilder 454]

True statement. But he is only mentioning one thing I had said that he doesn't like because it wont fit with his eschatology. That is fine. I posted before this to him and I respond to that question. The wedding feast, the time of the feast, the door closing, etc etc etc.

Disagreements are ok. We will talk through them as long as insults are not brought forth =P

maybe he can console your silly offence at me.
Plain ridiculous.
You have NEVER addressed the rapture time frame.
Nor can your teachers.
They , like you, omit it and deflect as your posts demonstrate.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The theory is by some that Jesus comes only in the second coming on white horses.
That is their theory and their starting place.
The bible says much much different

The white horses are post trib and post wrath.

We see other comings for a fact.
Rev 14 is an example.

Jesus placing the rapture in Lots and Noah's timeframe is another.

The thinkers disagree. They think they need to reframe any such verses or , as their teachers do, simply omit them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

True statement. But he is only mentioning one thing I had said that he doesn't like because it wont fit with his eschatology. That is fine. I posted before this to him and I respond to that question. The wedding feast, the time of the feast, the door closing, etc etc etc.

Disagreements are ok. We will talk through them as long as insults are not brought forth =P

You malighned me.
You basically lied and insinuated i only mention one thing and my eschatology is without merit.

Which i could care less

It is a debate and you are defecting in frustration.

What is comical is your inability to see you are doing what you accuse others of.
Which is most always the case.
SMH

 

[No Pre-TB]

Too funny

I called you out for omitting the time frame of Lot and Noah
You answered in generalities... and again... OMITTED the time frame of the rapture BY Jesus.
All rapture verses are pretrib with the setting of peacetime, commerce, and normal life.
But hey change it around or believe it. It is your call.

I would hope you’d be more mature about this.

Omitting the time frame of Noah and Lot? I responded at post #432. Perhaps you missed it.

Omitted the time frame of the rapture by Jesus? 2 Tim 4:1, Isa 25:8, Rev 11:18, 2Thess 2:1-4
Take a pick. They are all at the 7th trumpet

All rapture verses are not in peacetime?
God’s wrath will come as a surprise. The issue is that you mistakenly make wrath identical with persecution. That is a hermeneutical no-no. The rapture is for those who are alive and survived because everyone else died. That doesn’t sound like peace time for the church. 2 Thess 2 tells us we will see the man of sin. Will he not make war against the saints and God? Of course he will.

 

[No Pre-TB]

All you are doing is pure deflection.
If you are so much greater in character than me, then brag on and paint yourself as superior and Christlike.
Look up the "Beam in eye" dynamic then get back with something on topic.
You seem to have some "wounded spirit" that makes you think you need to correct me in your offence over nothing.
Actually you need to get a few verses that are on topic, as you guys OMIT the verses i am pointing out.
You cant reconcile a single one, and invoke as much off topic generalities as possible to basically not answer the fact of the rapture time frame by Jesus. ...Oh the blindness!
NONE of you have addressed the time frame JESUS laid out.

Concerning the "one coming" error, Rev 14 is not the coming on white horses, nor can any of you reconcile that coming by Jesus gathering the jewish harvest.( VIVIDLY Depicted AS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE CONFUSED WITH rev 19.)
Your deal is so debunked and that is WHY you do what you do.
1,Omit.
2,Throw out generalities.
3,Attack your opponents character with paranoid accusations.
4,Repeat.

You can not reconcile those verses.
That is why they are avoided.

Where did I say I’m better than you? I am a sinner. I’m not better than anyone.

I asked you to bridle your tongue. You’re full of hate and it’s hurting your testimony. You should take that in love, not in anger. Fix those things to grow. We should help each other.

I told you before, Acts 3:21 makes it impossible for Christ to leave heaven on your timeline. Job 14:12 proves we will not resurrect till the heavens are removed. Christ comes back one time. He leaves heaven after all things have been shaken and sets up his kingdom. Your ability to not argue against what scripture says is not my issue; it’s your own.

Show me how Christ leaves heaven on a pre-TB timeline with Acts 3:21. How does the restoration of all things precede the 1st seal if nothing has been removed before it’s opened?

 

[No Pre-TB]

maybe he can console your silly offence at me.
Plain ridiculous.
You have NEVER addressed the rapture time frame.
Nor can your teachers.
They , like you, omit it and deflect as your posts demonstrate.

I’ve addressed it plenty of time in scripture. You ignore it as well as you ignore posting scripture to rebuke it.

Who are my teachers? The HS is my guide and teacher that brings things to remembrance.

You keep saying omit and reflect but between you and I, I’ve demonstrated what is said with scripture and commentary. You’ve done neither.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You malighned me.
You basically lied and insinuated i only mention one thing and my eschatology is without merit.

Which i could care less

It is a debate and you are defecting in frustration.

What is comical is your inability to see you are doing what you accuse others of.
Which is most always the case.
SMH

Complaining is not becoming of a Christian attitude. Can’t we talk as men of God?

Your eschatology is based upon dispensationalism. That idea is grounded in separation. I’m not going to debate all the differences here and go off topic, but there’s a fundamental difference between what Paul said and some churches say today.

I have zero frustration my friend. As I said, I try to stay warm and reflect love. I’m confident in His word. We may disagree, but that doesn’t mean you’re my enemy. We still worship the one true God.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not denial.

Well, I'm glad of that...

Just plain old English.

That's not the problem between us, Timtofly. The problem is your... well, either your stubborn refusal ~ or mere inability ~ to hear John's Revelation for what it is, to properly piece it together (so to speak), or comprehend John's visions in... not only Revelation 19 and 20, but Revelation overall. But whichever it is, refusal or inability, you're certainly not alone in that miscomprehension.

Satan deceieved himself?

Nnnnoooo... LOL! You know, not to compare myself to John or anything like that, but what I said about your "understanding" of John's Revelation applies to me and what I've said. I'm starting to wonder, quite frankly, if you can understand anything, Timtofly, if you can hear anything for what it actually is, because I certainly never said or intimated this or an large number of other things you've insinuated about what I've said in this exchange. Yeah, like I said before, hoo-boy. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

i don't know your position.

I... kind of just told you...

If you struggle with the time frame Jesus laid out in the rapture then omit the rapture verses.

An interesting word choice there ('struggle')... The struggle, in this conversation (that we may or may not enter into), Rebuilder, is what some folks thing Jesus "laid out" and what they think are or are not "rapture verses." If you want to engage in a good-natured exchange of ideas on these things ~ i.e., "This is what I believe and here's why I believe it... what I think backs me up" ~ then I'm certainly game. But if it gets adversarial, then that's where we should stop.

BTW what dangerous sentiment is involved in the parables?

When I said "dangerous sentiment," Rebuilder, is was in direct response to your statement that "The parables have components. They are a story within a story." Thinking that way can ~ not necessarily 'does' but 'can' ~ lead folks down... well, rabbit holes.

Are you not aware that each has a message?

I'm... very much aware... There is at least one message in everything anyone says, I guess... But messages ~ even simple ones ~ can be misunderstood (or made less or more of than intended) in a myriad of ways...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

True statement. But he is only mentioning one thing I had said that he doesn't like because it wont fit with his eschatology. That is fine. I posted before this to him and I respond to that question. The wedding feast, the time of the feast, the door closing, etc etc etc.

Disagreements are ok. We will talk through them as long as insults are not brought forth =P

You malighned me.
You basically lied and insinuated i only mention one thing and my eschatology is without merit.

Which i could care less

It is a debate and you are defecting in frustration.

What is comical is your inability to see you are doing what you accuse others of.
Which is most always the case.
SM

I... kind of just told you...


An interesting word choice there ('struggle')... The struggle, in this conversation (that we may or may not enter into), Rebuilder, is what some folks thing Jesus "laid out" and what they think are or are not "rapture verses." If you want to engage in a good-natured exchange of ideas on these things ~ i.e., "This is what I believe and here's why I believe it... what I think backs me up" ~ then I'm certainly game. But if it gets adversarial, then that's where we should stop.


When I said "dangerous sentiment," Rebuilder, is was in direct response to your statement that "The parables have components. They are a story within a story." Thinking that way can ~ not necessarily 'does' but 'can' ~ lead folks down... well, rabbit holes.


I'm... very much aware... There is at least one message in everything anyone says, I guess... But messages ~ even simple ones ~ can be misunderstood (or made less or more of than intended) in a myriad of ways...

Grace and peace to you.

Not sure where all your introspection leads.
Knowing the components of a parable, and the fact that they are a story/message within a story, is dangerous to you?
Wow.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Complaining is not becoming of a Christian attitude. Can’t we talk as men of God?

Your eschatology is based upon dispensationalism. That idea is grounded in separation. I’m not going to debate all the differences here and go off topic, but there’s a fundamental difference between what Paul said and some churches say today.

I have zero frustration my friend. As I said, I try to stay warm and reflect love. I’m confident in His word. We may disagree, but that doesn’t mean you’re my enemy. We still worship the one true God.

if you are of the high character you are attempting to project, you would not spend all that time in rabbit trail policing of my character.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The "anti-pretribbers" have hit a big dilemma.
They can not reconcile the 10 virgin parable or rev 14.
Their latest postings are simply going after me personally.

That always kills the thread when they are undone with scripture.

Rev 14
10 virgin parable.
Either reconcile Gods word or change it/omit it.
Crack a bible and lets go.
Drop the fluff and filler.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Complaining is not becoming of a Christian attitude. Can’t we talk as men of God?

Your eschatology is based upon dispensationalism. That idea is grounded in separation. I’m not going to debate all the differences here and go off topic, but there’s a fundamental difference between what Paul said and some churches say today.

I have zero frustration my friend. As I said, I try to stay warm and reflect love. I’m confident in His word. We may disagree, but that doesn’t mean you’re my enemy. We still worship the one true God.

That was put there by me to show you what you do.( note my clue in there " i could care less")
I am not here to do what you do. (you are focussed on behavior, but it is your false perception of others and finger pointing ...just absurd)
See how easy it is to get a thread derailed over your policeman tactics?
You are doing what you accuse others of.

BTW, My study of scripture is systematic theology.
Scripture interprets scripture.
Your strategy of denying context and comprehension is YOUR BASIS of reframe and omissions.
I automatically have the high ground.