Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
All of the tribes are described as the sons of Israel.
If it is you can explain the rapture or snatching away without stacking the seals, trumpets, and bowls, without placing the church under God's wrath I could be more swayed to your point of view. As it stands I see no way yet. Also it is written that Christ returns with all His saints, not to all His saints. This means His church must be with Him before His final return.
Please see this in my point of view, I am not some know it all. I seek truth, under the guidance of the HolySpirit. Many of the points made by all are relevant, yet there is only one truth that is God's. His timing is just that, His! We are servants seeking to sharpen ourselves against each other.
I can only pray you seek after your own advice.
I think I've already proven how well I understand the pre-trib rapture doctrine and its various ideas. But understanding that doctrine really isn't the point, because we should both... want to understand what God's Word teaches regardless of man's doctrine.
1. Per Bible history, God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms. Documentation of that starts at 1 Kings 11 and continues until the northern ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" was totally... removed from the holy land, captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes. Many brethren has never studied that Bible history, which is a must to understand who those 144,000 of Rev.7 are.
2. to this day, the majority of Israelites, the ten tribes, have never been joined with Judah (i.e., Jews of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, which made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" per that same 1 Kings 11 > history.)
3. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the ten tribes were still scattered abroad to Assyria and the land of the Medes in his day, and he said they were too numerous a people to count.
4. Josephus also said the title of 'Jew' first began to be officially used for the small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that returned from Babylon back to Jerusalem. He said all living in the lands of Judea also took that title of 'Jew'.
5. The rest of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi chose to stay... in Babylon after the 70 years captivity. Then they, like the ten tribes were around 200 years before, were also scattered among the nations. This is how Jews have migrated throughout the nations.
6. The Jews kept their heritage as being of Israel. The ten tribes did not, for God foretold they would be lost, per the Book of Hosea.
7. God has promised to join both 'houses' back in the holy lands of promise in final, and that prophecy is set only for Christ's second coming.
8. Thusly, the Jews and lost Israel are still... two separate nations today, even though they all are from Jacob as their father.
9. Therefore, when the tribes of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Isaachar, Zebulon, Joseph, are mentioned, as per Rev.7, those are NOT Jews. (Dan is left out of that Rev.7 list, but included in the Ezekiel 48 list).
10. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi on that Rev.7 are Jews.
Thus the real idea of that 144,000 per God's Word, is that 2/3rds of those are sealed Israelites who think they are Gentiles, having been scattered centuries ago among the Gentiles. Only a small remnant among them realize their heritage from old Israel. What does that mean? It means a LOT... of those scattered Israelites of the ten tribes are CHRISTIANS dwelling among Gentile Christians!
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
All of the tribes are described as the sons of Israel.
If it is you can explain the rapture or snatching away without stacking the seals, trumpets, and bowls, without placing the church under God's wrath I could be more swayed to your point of view. As it stands I see no way yet. Also it is written that Christ returns with all His saints, not to all His saints. This means His church must be with Him before His final return.
Please see this in my point of view, I am not some know it all. I seek truth, under the guidance of the HolySpirit. Many of the points made by all are relevant, yet there is only one truth that is God's. His timing is just that, His! We are servants seeking to sharpen ourselves against each other.
I can only pray you seek after your own advice.
Well, here's what Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4 Chapter again, a chapter that the pre-trib rapture schools strongly admits.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The subject? Those in Christ Jesus that have already died. Paul doesn't want us to be sorrow thinking those are lost, for they are not.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Which ones is Paul talking about there? Still about the saints that have already died. Paul says if we believe our Lord Jesus rose from the dead, even those saints that have already died, He will bring with Him. What's that bring with Him about? It's about the resurrection at Christ's return, those saints He brings from HEAVEN back to earth with Him.
But what about the saints still alive on earth? Paul covered that too...
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Paul was clear there will also be saints still alive on the earth when He comes. That's 2 separate groups of saints 1) the asleep saints Jesus brings WITH Him from Heaven when He comes, and then the saints still alive on earth at that same coming. Paul is even more specific with that word "prevent", because the original Greek word actually means 'precede' or go beforehand. He's simply saying the saints still alive on earth will in no way 'precede' the asleep saints to be with Jesus.
16
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There's that same trump Paul declared in the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, the "last trump". The last trump per Revelation is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. It occurs along with the last 3rd Woe period.
Our Lord Jesus will DESCEND from Heaven with the sound of that trumpet, and then the resurrection of the saints He brings with Him, and then... what?
17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)
Then, at that same time of the resurrection, we which are still alive and remain on earth, will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, and caught up together with those asleep saints Christ brings with Him at His coming. The saints still alive on earth being 'changed' is part of this, even though it is written in the 1 Cor.15 and not here specifically.
Then what happens after both groups of saints are gathered together? Then we all go to Jerusalem per Zech.14.
The time of that resurrection is also the timing of "the day of the Lord" events, the time of God's consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off this earth, and the time of God's wrath upon the wicked involving the Armageddon events. And all that is going to happen very quickly.