The Rapture Lie

[Brother Mike]

Christiana, I saw your video...............

outside of eze 17 you gave that. What other scriptures are there on the 10 lost tribs the whole reason Christ came. From several web sites, these 10 lost tribes are possibly myths. Why is not the bible focused on such an important matter being the reason for Christ coming on the ten lost tribes. I won't say Historical evidence is wrong, and there is history outside what the Word of God covers. I have also read where these 10 Lost tribes might be true. I just want the connections in the scipture because everything I checked for the most part does not refere to scripture but other possible historical documents.

Be blessed.


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[JarBreaker]

The 144,000 are from Israel.............. count them. 12..................... The bible is not that hard, it is not as complicated, and number counting as some make it.

Christina:



The ten lost tribes are not mentioned in the bible at all.......... That theory is based on speculation and theory. Christ did not come for the ten lost tribes. he came out of the 12. The covenant was based on Abraham, It is the reason God rescued them out of Egypt, and that Covenant is the one Jesus established on better promises.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

No............. Christ did not make the Covenant because of some made up ten lost tribes....... It is not why he came, He came to destroy the works of the devil, who had power over death. That is actual scripture. Also in Christ is that covenant God made with Abraham. (Israel and 12 tribes) We are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Notice what is missing??? any mention of 10 lost tribes. Wikki............



This is what Christiana's powers of bible study bring her. Truth based on speculation, and lack of sciptures.

144,000 Jews........................

There are a estimated 3 billion Christians in the World. According to Christina only a very small number of them get this seal. Was it the 144,000? Hard to tell what she is talking about. That would leave billions of Christians to face certain torture, which is impossible as I have proved above.

The 144,000 will keep the commandments as the custom of Israel and give the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This testimony will be much like what John the Baptist preached, it will not be the Gospel of Christ, or the Gospel of the anointing with the Holy Spirit. It will be unto repentance.

Jesus said when the Gospel is preached all over the World, then the end comes. Our Job as Christians is done at that time. We are the anointed that preach the Gospel of Christ (The anointed one and his anointing)

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

144,000 will testify of Jesus, they are from Israel. There are no 10 lost tribes................ Looking outside the Word for truth will get you into serious error. I saw the video........

Jesus Is Lord.

Usually like to clean up anything I quote but dont feel like digging into this 1.

The northern kingdom ( Israel ) split from Judah under Rehoboam ... you dont read in the scripture the explicit "lost 10" phrasing ...


quoting again to pull it from all that at the top,

"No............. Christ did not make the Covenant because of some made up ten lost tribes....... It is not why he came, He came to destroy the works of the devil"


Matt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL ... in other words the northern kingdom, the 10 lost tribes which are nowhere ever mentioned AT ALL ANYWHERE ... He knew that Judah was not going to accept Him, they were looking for Him to conquer Roman rule over Jerusalem, ask any Jew today what they are expecting of their messiah ... but ...


But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


He was not sent BUT TO the lost sheep

I AM sure! I KNOW who my Lord and Savior is. No need to question my salvation, I'm not and WILL not question yours. Actually those that are sealed by God are the 144,000 Jews during the first three years of the tribulation. Not gentile christian believers, but converted christian Jews.... don't believe me? Well here's the whole section without taking anything out of context. I ask that you please read because you're wrong in your assumption that all christians are going to have this seal.


Revelation 7:1-8
144,000 Sealed


1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


As you see it clearly states 144,000 from the tribes of Israel.... in fact it's 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, numbering 144,000 total.




Now back to the question again. yes God did protect the Hebrews from the angel of death. they covered thier doors with lambs blood so they wouldn't lose their first born sons. And the reason I asked about that, and Noah and his family, and Lott and his family is because you said it's against Gods nature to save only the few, yet that's exactly how things worked out with the flood, and Sodom and Gamorrah and in the case with the angel of death at the passover.

Those 12 tribes ? Ok, Judah, Benjamin ... there, these are the only tribes that are what today are called Jews (not countning Levi, but Levi was not given an inheritance in the land as his descendants were to serve in the Temple)


Those other 10 tribes are from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, not Jews, but ALL 12 tribes were His PEOPLE ISRAEL, the split under Rehoboam will be reconciled and is spoken of beginning in Eve 37.

The parable of the prodigal son is speaking of this, the "older son" who did not squander his inheritance (his heritage, Torah, the Hebrew language, his place in the land itself) is driven to JEALOUSY when the Father slays the fattened calf when He sees the younger son (northern kingdom of Israel,lost 10 tribes) RETURN to Him.

Judah will not accept Him til they are driven to jealousy.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Jarbreaker. That is a pretty good job of explaining things..................... far better than anything else I have read.

Not much to go on. I have checked several web sites. There are other references to sheep though, so it's a tough sell on that one scripture.

Like Jesus said, I have come to give sight to the blind.

We know he healed the blind, but we also know in cor "god of this world blind the eyes" and eph "that the eyes of our understanding" also meant in a spiritual sense.

What sight to the blind did he refer to, the ones he healed, the ones that had their eyes opened from the truth, or both. People will debate that.

Same with sheep. Where the sheep lost because they were under the leadership of the religious rulers of the time, or was it these ten lost tribes.

another debate..........

Still better than that video about a rock under a chair..................... more helpful.

Thank you brother Jarbreaker!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[JarBreaker]

Where in scripture did God tell us this Christina?

Isa. 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Thank you Jarbreaker. That is a pretty good job of explaining things..................... far better than anything else I have read.

Not much to go on. I have checked several web sites. There are other references to sheep though, so it's a tough sell on that one scripture.

Like Jesus said, I have come to give sight to the blind.

We know he healed the blind, but we also know in cor "god of this world blind the eyes" and eph "that the eyes of our understanding" also meant in a spiritual sense.

What sight to the blind did he refer to, the ones he healed, the ones that had their eyes opened from the truth, or both. People will debate that.

Same with sheep. Where the sheep lost because they were under the leadership of the religious rulers of the time, or was it these ten lost tribes.

another debate..........

Still better than that video about a rock under a chair..................... more helpful.

Thank you brother Jarbreaker!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

He told the blind man to go and show himself to the priests, this was not allegorical.

 

[JarBreaker]

.........Stop counting!!! I was trying to figure out those trumpets........... I was under the thought that if a trumpet sounded from heaven it only could be connected to Rev.............

from wiki, http://en.wikipedia....Jewish_holidays



The Feast of Trumpets models itself on the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year). Not normally celebrated in mainstream Christianity, a small number of evangelical Christians celebrate the Feast of Trumpets. Some connect the observance with the "sound of the trumpet" that they believe will occur at the return of Jesus Christ ("For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God," 1 Thessalonians 4:16). Chuck Missler notes the possibility that in 1 Corinthians 15:52 ("in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"), Paul is "alluding to the climactic trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets".[sup][1][/sup]


Quoting from 6string just before now, I mentioned the Prodigal Son ... that the elder son who did NOT squander his inheritance ... was returned to the land and has been practicing these MEMORIALS since they were given begining with the 1st passover.


The spring feasts point to messiah coming, the fall feasts (begining with Trumpets) point to His RETURN

way waaay too much to dig into at this late hour but I will say this ... it says in the Millenium, those nations who do not come up to Israel for the moedim/feasts will get no rain. ... and to take it back to the front of the Book, that whole thing about the sun and the moon, greater light for day and night, the lesser light for ...

urrrk, back up a verse or 2

Gen 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


that word MOEDIM, signs and seasons ... biblical calendar goes by lunar reckoning


quiting before I manlge this post anymore

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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Didnt have time to read all the way back where a video was talked about being posted, but Bro. Mike mentioned something about a stone. This has to be the Stone of Scone and Christina was likely just showing from where it ended up (Scotland) the different travels of the lost tribes.


http://www.britam.or...stofProofs.html


This is the definitive study and shows where each tribe likely ended up.


I'm not one to bring up Herbert Armstrong much but his book on the US and England in prophecy is still very good for this as well.

 

[01CobraVortech]

LOL remember you said that because the offer goes two ways B) but I will be gracious as its not my truth but Gods

Hey if I'm wrong, I will admit it. And I'll be right over for my serving.

 

[jiggyfly]

Do you think it is all things concerning the abomination of desolation, all things in general or all things period?



Really how long have you been studying the scriptures Christina?

Hopefully you can give me a more direct answer to the first question than you did on the second question.

 

[Martin W.]

In Revelation 9 ALL the people on earth are accounted for .... but the Church is nowhere to be found .

For this reason Christine insists the 144,000 Israelis .... are actually a billion gentile Christians.

She is determined to have the Church go through the tribulation and will employ any method to make it work.

Do not be confused by smokescreens folks.

Best regards
Martin W.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Martin W................... I have all ready proved that the Rapture is Pre-Tribulation or not very long into the seven Year period.

Chistina's Evidence consisted of a video about someone putting a rock under a old wood chair. This rock was moved from chair to chair. That is proof of some ten lost tribes.

Jarbreaker gave me what evidence in scripture could be used and clarified Christiana's statement for the reason Christ came.

So, Jarbreakers information was very helpful into determining where Christiana was getting some of this information, but I still can't figure out the Rock under the Chair. What the heck that have anything to do with anything? What does it prove?


Martin W.

She is determined to have the Church go through the tribulation and will employ any method to make it work.

If Jarbreakers scripture is what Christina was refering to as the reason Christ came. She had not even opened her concordance and checked into it. One would have to compare scriptures and define the meaning of Lost sheep. Jesus would have said lost tribes if that is what he meant, and sheep would not have had another meaning. In fact, Sheep does not have another meaning at all. Unless David was part of the ten tribes............... that are somehow lost.

Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Once I got into a serious study, and praying about it, I have found conclusively that the Church will be removed before the time of trouble begains, not after. I gave that study above. Jesus even seperated the times which perfectly match everything else.


Jarbreaker:

Thank you for the information about the trumpets. Reading other Web sites, I found people trying to get the trumpets in Rev to match the ones where Jesus comes with a loud trump. This is not consistant bible interpetation, or else it would be correct to match every trumpet mentioned. We are also not told to match trumpets. The trumpet is just that, a anouncement of a event taking place, that is all it is. Just like my doorbell example, the doorbell lets you know someone is at the door.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[fivesense]

A study of pre-tribulation rapture will leave a lot of unanswered questions and the (theory) will encounter some problems along the way.

A study of mid-tribulation rapture encounters even more problems.

A study of post-tribulation rapture comes up against the most roadblocks.

None of the three positions can be proven with our limited information.


A slightly off topic consideration could include the following :

.... did God leave Lot in the city until it was nearly destroyed or did he remove him ahead of time?

.... Did God leave Noah on earth until nearly everything was submerged or did he have him in the Ark before the rain even started?

These examples , and many others show that God has a history of removing his people before he pounds the enemy. Because the Great Tribulation is upon the whole earth we must allow the possibility that the Christian is absent (not here for the trib). Maybe God has a special oasis for Christians during that time , but if he plans to translate them sometime anyway, why not before the wrath. It would make more sense than keeping them here during the wrath and then translate them a split second before the end (of the tribulation).

One of the difficulties we encounter is that The Tribulation has its focus on the unbelieving world , including unbelieving Israel. The focus is no longer on the Church. One of the byproducts of the tribulation is God's exposure of Israel to unbelievable distress. It becomes so bad they cry out for the Messiah. Before all is lost , the Messiah does indeed come. (Jesus Christ.)

We living Christians (the Church) do not require such prompting. We already know The Messiah. We do not require the distress of the great tribulation to convert us. We are already converted. The great tribulation is for the unbelievers , not us.

In spite of that, I am also prepared to accept we may very well be exposed to some, or all of the tribulation. But I certainly will not bash anyone who holds the view of a pre-trib rapture. I would certainly not call them liars as some are prone to do.

To label something as a lie, first requires an establishment of the truth. We are not given enough information to conclusively determine the truth on this subject. A "best guess" is the most we can hope to accomplish..

I suppose the greatest influence to me in my countless hours spent on this subject is trying to allow for God intermingling wrath with grace. It is contrary to His previous dealings. As you say, He removes His remnant or chosen ones, before the pounding and the pulling of the plug. Judgment on the earth cannot take place as long as the mercy and grace of the God of conciliation is in operation. The ecclesia is the Lord's channel of that ministration. Remove the channel, and the proper steps can then proceed. Until then, God cannot oppose Himself. It would make Him dualistic in His attributes, which He is not. It is either one or the other, Savior or Judge, or he is the anti-christ , playing a dual role in deceptive treachery. I have experienced Him as the former, and my expectation is to never know Him as the recipient of His judgments to come. I have passed out of judgment into life with Him. Either that, or I have been lied to by the Lord Himself.
fivesense
fivesense

 

[fivesense]

We are most certainly told when our translation/change takes place reguardless of ones belief we are told exactly when it happens

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
sleep is dead we shall not all die

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

at the last trump the translation occurs whaty is the last trump the 7th and last at Christs return

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Perhaps you can not allow your self to see this plain statement because your trying to fit it into a preconceived idea so you think other verse say differnt ...They do not... there is no contradiction to this statement this is exactly when we are changed.

Its only your own limits upon yourself to prove an idea that you have come to believe the hinders your understanding of what said.

until you approach this subject honestly without any preconceived notion to prove or disprove true or not true you will be hindered in your effort.

You do err, Christina, in that you presume it is the angels' trumpet being sounded. It is not.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is the trumpet of God, no mere angelic trumpet. A salpigx in Greek is "trumpet", a device, an instrument. It has nothing to do with the angel trumpets of The Unveiling of Jesus Christ (Revelations). The Lord Himself sounds the trumpet; it is not the assignment of of anyone less.

How does that jibe with your theology?
fivesense

 

[jerryjohnson]

Hopefully you can give me a more direct answer to the first question than you did on the second question.

Why is it so important to know how long Christina has studied? what do You consider studying? If someone reads a chapter of Scripture every day are they studying? What if someone translates a chapter a day from the Hebrew and/or Greek?

 

[jiggyfly]

Why is it so important to know how long Christina has studied? what do You consider studying? If someone reads a chapter of Scripture every day are they studying? What if someone translates a chapter a day from the Hebrew and/or Greek?

Well since it seems so important to you to know why I wanted to know how long Christina has been studying the scriptures, here you go.
I found it very strange that someone could have studied the scriptures for 50 years and still think the way her posts indicate, unless much of it is without the power and guidance of the teacher HolySpirit.

See I don't equate scripture knowledge = spiritual maturity.

 

[Christina]

Jiggfly
you are mentally about 3 and you deny the Word of God as inspired you by your own admission find the Bible confusing to you how dare you judge me or anyone
You deny the Word and think God has given you some great knowledge by his spirit ..yet you must join little gangs to have any guts
you believe every false doctrine that comes along and have zero know how to prove or disprove it ....
you wouldnt know what scripture says if it bit you ...

 

[Christina]

In Revelation 9 ALL the people on earth are accounted for .... but the Church is nowhere to be found .

For this reason Christine insists the 144,000 Israelis .... are actually a billion gentile Christians.

She is determined to have the Church go through the tribulation and will employ any method to make it work.

Do not be confused by smokescreens folks.

Best regards
Martin W.

I used to have some respect for you even if we disagreed but you are as mislead as the rest its not my doctrine I do not make the church do anything God says it not me. You think joining in this group of yahoo's gives you more credability
sad

There isnt a single one of you who can prove me wrong in scripture
you can throw out opinions copy and paste your mens lies
but not one of you can debate on a scriptual level
I have only backed everything Ive said with scripture and somehow that makes me the bad guy ....You should all be ashamed.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggfly
you are mentally about 3 and you deny the Word of God as inspired you by your own admission find the Bible confusing to you how dare you judge me or anyone
You deny the Word and think God has given you some great knowledge by his spirit ..yet you must join little gangs to have any guts
you believe every false doctrine that comes along and have zero know how to prove or disprove it ....
you wouldnt know what scripture says if it bit you ...

Seems then we share the same opinion of each other.

Hey something we can both agree on! See all we have to do is try.

PS your insults just lend to your obvious lack of character. And seeing how in your opinion I wouldn't know scripture if it bit me, I feel very confident that you will see the vanity in trying to teach me your opinion of the scriptures and just ignore and avoid me. Hakuna matata Bwana asifiwe!

 

[Christina]

Bible haters opinions do not matter to me. It wasnt an insult it was fact out of your own mouth

 

[Brother Mike]

Fivesense:

I suppose the greatest influence to me in my countless hours spent on this subject is trying to allow for God intermingling wrath with grace. It is contrary to His previous dealings.

You do err, Christina, in that you presume it is the angel's trumpet being sounded. It is not.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I am amazed at your revelation. The Holy Spirit told me don't count the trumpets. Over and over. I was trying to make sense of the Word using numerology and counting. The Holy Spirit is our teacher. For some reason we get to the End time stuff, and forget how to study. You grabbed this one before me, my wife found it. (Though I was on track........)

Trying to match trumpets with Revelation is bad Bible interpretation. (Not that I knew that until yesterday) If we match trumpets in Rev, then to be consistent, all the trumpets mentioned in the bible must match Rev.

A trumpet was the start of a event. Nothing more than that.

Trump of God.................

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

REV Trumpets:
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Seven different Angel's Each sound a certain Event in Revelation. Not the Trump of God.


In 1 Cor 15:52 the Trumpet shall sound, and on the last blow or trump we are changed. The means more than one trumpet blast was given.

Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.

On that seven times, the last blow of the trumpet the Walls came down.

Trumpets just mean a Event is going to take place. The event may start with trumpets and on the Last sound of the trumpet the event occurs. This is consistent bible translation.

The Word of God never said compare Trumpet sounds, men have made that up.

Trump of God................ seven angels holding trumpets................. Looks different to me......

Christina:

There isn't a single one of you who can prove me wrong in scripture

You don't address anything with scripture Christina......... I had to have another member give me the scripture where Jesus said I have come for the Lost sheep of Isreal, because you stated the reason Christ came was for the 10 lost tribes. I gave a scripture where Davied consider himself a lost sheep. I compared scriptures, and Lost sheep in no way, shape or form refere to any made up 10 lost tribes........... I have also proven with solid evidence that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. In which nobody will give me counter Scriptures because they can't.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[fivesense]

Fivesense:

Trumpets just mean a Event is going to take place. The event may start with trumpets and on the Last sound of the trumpet the event occurs. This is consistent bible translation.

The Word of God never said compare Trumpet sounds, men have made that up.

Christina:



You don't address anything with scripture Christina......... I had to have another member give me the scripture where Jesus said I have come for the Lost sheep of Isreal, because you stated the reason Christ came was for the 10 lost tribes. I gave a scripture where Davied consider himself a lost sheep. I compared scriptures, and Lost sheep in no way, shape or form refere to any made up 10 lost tribes........... I have also proven with solid evidence that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. In which nobody will give me counter Scriptures because they can't.

Jesus Is Lord.

Good work Brother Mike, faithfulness in the study of God's word is sorely lacking, and your application to it is invigorating to my soul. Let us not be put off by those whose confidence is in their ignorance, but in the revealed word of God.

In the so-called New Testament, there is not one mention of any lost tribes, and the entire body of Israel is addressed by the Lord Himself in every mention He makes of them. Never is there a separation. It is a theory that is easily smacked down with the evidences of the Word itself.
fivesense

 

[JarBreaker]

In Revelation 9 ALL the people on earth are accounted for .... but the Church is nowhere to be found .

For this reason Christine insists the 144,000 Israelis .... are actually a billion gentile Christians.

Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

"ONLY those men who DID NOT" .. not getting here where you're saying ALL are accounted for, why would there be an indication or difference ... those who did as opposed to those who did not ?


This thinking that Israel TODAY is only a country is leading to so much confusion, if people cant see the 10 tribes being lost at this point in time, can they surely not see that they WILL BE found as evidenced by there being 10 gates on new Jerusalem which are other than the 2 tribes which today reside in the PHYSICAL land of Israel ?