The Rapture Lie

[jerryjohnson]

Earlier I made the comment that the Church appears to be absent in Revelation 9.

Yes, I see the church in these verses, but then, I know who the church is in the book of Rev. I have addressed this my times over the last years. What is the difference between Rev and the Pauline Epistles?



Answer:
The church is the mystery of God’s Grace. Remember, no Jew nor Greek, etc. In Revelation, the Assembly is very Hebrew; it is talking again to the Hebrew tribes, with old Hebrew wording, idioms and figures of speech. That is because the Holy of Holies, open during Grace, is now filled with smoke, it’s closed, and Grace is no longer operative we are in the time of judgment. Unfortunately many of you are not going to understand that because you do not have any oil. You will miss your place at the table. Most of you are all ready in bed with 594.

 

[Brother Mike]

JerryJohnson.............. The Lord said I will never leave you or forsake you. If the Church is present, so will be the indwelling of the Holy spirit. does the Holy Spirit leave us? No more authority over Satan? Those not filled with the Holy Spirit and operate in the Gifts would not understand this.

You can operate under the Old Law, with No Holy Spirit

That is because the Holy of Holies

While I am on earth, I will operate under the Power of Christ, Jesus the anointed one and His anointing. The Lord will take nothing from me, as the gifts and callings are without repentance.

Rom 11:29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

The presence of God will be with me and stay with me, and not jump into some Holy of Holies, running away from me.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[fivesense]

Glory to God!!!!!!!

Martin W...................I am so thankful that we agree on this one!!! Fivesens, though we have not agreed on everything your wisdom and support have encouraged many that hold on to the Rapture, and the truth of it.

Jesus Is Lord.

Thank you Brother Mike for your gracious words. I am honored. I strongly disagree with a few of the things that you put forth, but at least neither you nor I will go to the stocks or bonfires for doing so. I praise God for all His sons and daughters that are choosing to act on the promptings of the Holy Spirit to discover or uncover truth. You, and many others here, are trying in spiritual might to attain unto the fullness of the maturitiy we are looking for in our lives. Sometimes, sometimes often, the sparks will fly. Let us continue to speak with seasoning salt if needed, to make ourselves manifest to the light. Then, let us suffer the rebuke of the Lord and our brothers and sisters, in order to put on Christ in humility and appreciation.
fivesense

Rom 11:29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

The presence of God will be with me and stay with me, and not jump into some Holy of Holies, running away from me.

Jesus Is Lord.

You would no doubt be bangin' loudly on the door, not settling for second best Brother Mike.
fivesense

 

[JarBreaker]

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Such a pair of comforting verses.

Oh wait!

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Gather FIRST the TARES, and BIND THEM ( hmmm, what's that ... "unless the STRONG MAN be bound, how else would you spoil his house ?" ... people need to understand who this strong man is) ...

Gather who 1st ?

The tares.

And do what with them ?

BURN THEM.


If people understood how our natural world and the workings of it are often pictures of a spiritual lesson this would be easier.


2 Cor 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Can the natural harvest have anything to do with painting a picture of the harvest at the end of the reign of man ?

If it wasn't so much fun for your seminary trained pastors to get you hooked on Marshmallow Peeps, then more people would understand how the moedim uses the timing of the natural harvest season to show the birth, death and resurrection.


Heck, it might even indicate that seeds are scattered about, but .....

"All Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).

 

[Brother Mike]

Glory to God fivesense: Yes we have disagreed strongly before. At no time have you not taken the time to use scriptures and explain your position.

Your position is not from someone that has not taken the things of God serious. You also have taken the time to come at different angles so that I can get it though my narrow thinking what you were expressing. It is this willingness to show me what you see in the Word and why you don't see what I have seen in the Word.

Jiggyfly and I have been going round and round for a few years on another forum, but like Jiggyfly, I respect the reverence for God's Word, and respect the knowledge and revelation that God has given both of you. I also know that it is not a doctrine of mike, and that Mike can be wrong.

The simple understanding of the Word, not obscure things, not things that we must stretch to make true. Though I not agree always, not one time was it not clear in Word why you have taken a different position. I did not have to suspend my belief system to understand.

That is not the case with some in this thread, but when asking to explain, just scriptures are thrown out to pick though, or some video about a Rock under a chair is given. That is if those explaining are being nice. Most the time I picture my arms being ripped off and beaten with them being called stupid over and over.


1Ti 1:4 Nor to give importance to or occupy themselves with legends (fables, myths) and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God's administration and the divine training that is in faith ([1] in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence)--

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[sniper762]

WHY do children of god fear the tribulation or jesus' second coming? how little faith! im not afraid, i look forward to it.

 

[01CobraVortech]

WHY do children of god fear the tribulation or jesus' second coming? how little faith! im not afraid, i look forward to it.

Are you a masochist?

 

[Brother Mike]

Robster, you would be surprised at those that claim no fear, where their faith is really at. It is easy to stand in the background and say your looking forward to a time of trouble the earth has never seen.

If anyone has been told they were loosing a loved one, or bills so piled high they don't know what to do, about to loose their home, or being sick, and grabbing every scripture they can get, battling the thoughts with faith and the Word that God may not come though for them.

If we can see these people in those situations, Where if God does not come though, then all is lost, we will really know how they will stand up when the whole Earth is going though the most wicked time that has ever been recorded in History. Talk is cheap.

I run into these faith people all the time, the talk is good, but by their own conversation they fear these normal earthly things.




Jesus Is Lord.

 

[01CobraVortech]

Robster, you would be surprised at those that claim no fear, where their faith is really at. It is easy to stand in the background and say your looking forward to a time of trouble the earth has never seen.

If anyone has been told they were loosing a loved one, or bills so piled high they don't know what to do, about to loose their home, or being sick, and grabbing every scripture they can get, battling the thoughts with faith and the Word that God may not come though for them.

If we can see these people in those situations, Where if God does not come though, then all is lost, we will really know how they will stand up when the whole Earth is going though the most wicked time that has ever been recorded in History. Talk is cheap.

I run into these faith people all the time, the talk is good, but by their own conversation they fear these normal earthly things.




Jesus Is Lord.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Brother Mike. Its always easy to talk the talk until you're in the middle of something. I have complete faith in God delivering on His promises, but when I hear God describe the Tribulation in the terrifying way that He does...well that doesn't do anything to alleviate the natural fears that are built into my body and psyche. Even if by chance, I had to go through the Tribulation, I certainly would not be looking forward to going through that. That's like saying the early Christians were looking forward to be burned alive by Nero. I pray all the time that I will escape the worst of human history.

 

[Brother Mike]

I talked the talk................ Still do.

However, telling someone that God will Heal you ,and take care of your needs is different than facing your own child dying.

I was told my son was going to die. Everything at that point, everything that I knew and thought was true was now on the line.

Now I would be on the other side of the fence. The one to believe God without doubt for the life of my own child.

Talk is one thing, Lets see what you do when the flood comes to knock your house down.

Jesus is Lord.

 

[jerryjohnson]

...

Talk is one thing, Lets see what you do when the flood comes to knock your house down.

Jesus is Lord.

The flood will not touch my house, it is built on the Rock not on the sand.

 

[Martin W.]

Glory to God!!!!!!!

We don't see the Church after Rev Chapter 3, and then mentioned again at the end of the book.

The language of the Church is missing, It kept coming to me over and over. So, I looked.

Yes Mike, your observations are correct .

From Matthew to Revelation 3 the christian church is given tremendous amounts of information on how to handle many circumstances we may encounter.

You would think if the church was to be present during something as nasty as the great tribulation we would be given endless instruction on what to do.

Instead it appears the christian church is no longer being used as an evangelical tool or a warning tool to the inhabitants of the earth.

It is as though our job has been taken over by the 144,000 , plus the two witnesses , plus direct warnings from angels.

It is as though the church is no longer here and it's voice is no longer heard.

We must remember Jesus comes one time for his church and another time with his church.

I do not find it inconceivable that he may come for his church early in Revelation.

I do find it inconceivable he would have his church endure the severe punishments of the tribulation to the end , then translate it, only to return with it a split second later.

If that is indeed the plan , Our Lord has left us no instruction in this regard , which also goes against his historical style.

 

[Martin W.]

We Christians are a difficult bunch. One of our problems is we tend to think the whole bible is about us and for us. Period.

We fail to keep in mind that most of us are gentile Christians grafted into the olive tree (Israel).

A major message of the bible is how God deals with his chosen people Israel. Because of their stubborn unbelief, and rejection of the Messiah, it is like God has humored them by saying ...... here are a bunch of un-chosen, un-washed , un-educated gentiles who in spite of their condition easily recognize and accept the Messiah. He has done this so that Isreal is without excuse.

Now here is my point: We need to realize that one day God turns his focus back on his people Israel. We must keep this in mind when reading Mathew 24 or Revelation. We have to accept that the elect and the saints mentioned there are most likely the people of Israel (and not us , the church).

If these saints and elect are not referring to end times Israel , then it appears Israel is missing , which of course would not make sense.

In summary God always refers to 3 groups of people :
1. His chosen people Israel.
2. Saved gentiles
3. Unsaved gentiles

With that in mind:
1. The Old testament is about Israel with a rare mention of the gentile
2. The new testament focuses heavily on the saved Jew and the saved gentile.
3. Revelation appears to focus back on Israel again.


I for one, am extremely thankful to have the opportunity to be part of the gentile branch grafted to the olive tree of Israel.

I hope I never become so arrogant to try to eliminate end time Israel from God's final plans.

Best regards
Martin W.

 

[Martin W.]

When studying the question about whether the church is here during the tribulation we must consider the possibility of the very worst case scenario.

This portion of Revelation 6 speaks about slain Christians under the altar. It also clearly indicates more are to be slain. Remember we are already in Revelation 6.

[sup]9[/sup]When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. [sup]10[/sup]They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" [sup]11[/sup]Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

If this is referring to Christians it does not sound pleasant. I would hope to die from natural causes beforehand. Yet we are told to look forward with glorious hope to the return of Jesus. This is a difficult passage.

 

[Martin W.]

[sup]Then just a little farther down in Revelation 6 it appears that everyone is again accounted for but what they are doing (hiding from the Lamb) does not sound like something the church would be doing.

15[/sup]Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. [sup]16[/sup]They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [sup]17[/sup]For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

 

[01CobraVortech]

We Christians are a difficult bunch. One of our problems is we tend to think the whole bible is about us and for us. Period.

We fail to keep in mind that most of us are gentile Christians grafted into the olive tree (Israel).

A major message of the bible is how God deals with his chosen people Israel. Because of their stubborn unbelief, and rejection of the Messiah, it is like God has humored them by saying ...... here are a bunch of un-chosen, un-washed , un-educated gentiles who in spite of their condition easily recognize and accept the Messiah. He has done this so that Isreal is without excuse.

Now here is my point: We need to realize that one day God turns his focus back on his people Israel. We must keep this in mind when reading Mathew 24 or Revelation. We have to accept that the elect and the saints mentioned there are most likely the people of Israel (and not us , the church).

If these saints and elect are not referring to end times Israel , then it appears Israel is missing , which of course would not make sense.

In summary God always refers to 3 groups of people :
1. His chosen people Israel.
2. Saved gentiles
3. Unsaved gentiles

With that in mind:
1. The Old testament is about Israel with a rare mention of the gentile
2. The new testament focuses heavily on the saved Jew and the saved gentile.
3. Revelation appears to focus back on Israel again.


I for one, am extremely thankful to have the opportunity to be part of the gentile branch grafted to the olive tree of Israel.

I hope I never become so arrogant to try to eliminate end time Israel from God's final plans.

Best regards
Martin W.

Well said Martin. Cheers.

 

[jerryjohnson]

Well said Martin. Cheers.

You just quoted Martin but thanked mike ??????????

 

[01CobraVortech]

You just quoted Martin but thanked mike ??????????

Huh????

 

[jerryjohnson]

Huh????

Look at your post #176

 

[Christina]

Such a pair of comforting verses.

Oh wait!

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Gather FIRST the TARES, and BIND THEM ( hmmm, what's that ... "unless the STRONG MAN be bound, how else would you spoil his house ?" ... people need to understand who this strong man is) ...

Gather who 1st ?

The tares.

And do what with them ?

BURN THEM.


If people understood how our natural world and the workings of it are often pictures of a spiritual lesson this would be easier.


2 Cor 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Can the natural harvest have anything to do with painting a picture of the harvest at the end of the reign of man ?

If it wasn't so much fun for your seminary trained pastors to get you hooked on Marshmallow Peeps, then more people would understand how the moedim uses the timing of the natural harvest season to show the birth, death and resurrection.


Heck, it might even indicate that seeds are scattered about, but .....

"All Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26).

great post Jar to bad they do see and understand the reprecussions of it. And what is said here.