The Rapture

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Is the Bible the Word of God and for that reason is the Catching Away, a.k.a. the Rapture, a fact?


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Rach1370

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The only way God had any responsibility for Joseph being in prison is if God told Joseph's brothers to do what they did to him... and if that was the case God told people to be unrighteous? haha... I don't think so... The truth is the brothers rebelled against God when they attacked Joseph and despite their wickedness God still delivered Joseph and blessed Him... like Joseph said... what they meant for evil God used for good... when we disobey God it isn't Him allowing us to do something... it's us using the loving gift of free will to rebel against Him... that's not Him allowing us... that's us taking advantage of His love...

God doesn't allow us to go through trials... He delivers us from trials even to the point that when people come against His kids with evil intention He can turn it around for our own good...

Thinking that God is in some way responsible for trials is like saying God is in some way responsible for the consequences of the fall of man... and that's a bunch of garbage... in spite of man's wickedness and rebellion God still pours out His love and delivers us... that's what increases faith... thinking we're in some way glorifying God by proclaiming that we're still loving Him while He's hurting us doesn't glorify God... it glorifies us... like a dog thinking it's glorifying it's master by licking his boot while the master's kicking it...

Hey Robbie. I agree that God doesn't cause bad things to happen, He can't, it's against His very nature!
But consider this: God is sovereign....He is everywhere and all powerful. These things that happen can't happen under His nose without Him knowing about them! And as He is all powerful, sovereign and reigns over all, then it kinda falls under His jurisdiction!! So can you concede that perhaps He allows things to happen? See the thing is, God can see, so many more things than we can and so much further. He sent His own Son to suffer trials and tribulation, but it was for such an awesome cause! God knew Joseph would end up saving many, many people from starvation. So He allowed Joseph to go through His trials for the good that would come out of it. It's like the parent allowing their child to have surgery they desperately need....they hate seeing their precious child in pain, but know it will ultimately save their life. I have no idea what God's ultimate plan for me is, but I'm sure it will be worth it, even If I never see that ultimate end. Even if it effects the salvation of grandchildren I never see, I trust God to have that plan in His hand, that it will be for His glory and the good of others.
 

Robbie

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Hey Rach... after I wrote that I was hoping you didn't think it was directed at you... it was just me venting about something that frustrates me and this conversation brought up my feelings about it... I just honestly only worship God because I believe He's only good and when I feel like people are telling me that He basically allows the world to molest His children that seriously tweaks my head because I can't help but think would I call a parent who allows people to molest their children good? Of course not... if a parent allowed someone to molest their child when they had the ability to stop it I would say that makes them equally guilty and I know our Father is blameless.

When I was a kid I went through a lot of trials... my grandma died of cancer and my grandpa died of a heart attack 15 minutes later which left me with my Mom who got addicted to heroin and I eventually moved out on my own when I was 14 ( you could imagine all the other crap that went along with that)... to think God allowed all that to happen would make me hate Him... but to believe that all of that happened to me because of the consequences of humanities rebellion against God and believing He's the One that delivered me through it all make me worship Him and love Him... it's what's allowed me to move past that part of my life and worship God instead of being mad at God for all that suffering... I hope that makes sense why I feel so passionate about this topic.
 

Robbie

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As far as your last response Rach... I just don't agree... it's like saying God needed Joseph's brothers to do evil in order to bring salvation to many... I don't buy that... I believe God brought salvation to many through Joseph despite the brothers rebellion and wickedness... and if the brothers wouldn't have done evil to Him God still would have brought salvation through Him the only difference being there wouldn't have been a bunch of pain and sorrow inflicted by mans wickedness... it's like saying God needs evil in order to do good... when the reality is God can do good despite evil... and yeah... God is sovereign and in that sovereignty He chose to give man free will and instruction instead of making us robots and man chose to use His free will to rebel against God instead of submitting to His instruction. God doesn't need anyone to do evil to accomplish His good... the only thing evil brings is suffering which God hates...and when we do evil God isn't allowing it... we're using the gift of free will to rebel against His command. The same way a parent who's allowed their child free will isn't allowing their kid to do wrong when the kid does the opposite of what the parent tells them when they leave the house.
 

TWC

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I hear the Book of Job is a good read...

Back to the original topic, just because you can make scripture conform to the doctrine doesn't mean the doctrine conforms to scripture.
 

jiggyfly

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People will find and twist everything in scripture to support what they want to believe. Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, those who believe that salvation only comes through speaking tongues, being baptised, following the old laws.
Let me ask you this: these people who say that I bring my illness upon myself, who say I have no faith, who say that if you say the right things God has to give you what you want, like you just uttered a magic incantation....do you really think that's how God operates? Do you think it's loving for a prosperity gospel pastor to divorce his wife and let her die alone when she gets cancer? It happened. Think about their agenda. Does any of have anything to do with God? His love, His work amongst his people? Nope, it's about these people getting everything they want...better cars, bigger houses and tv's. A holiday house, designer clothes, private tuition for their kids. Do they use the money they have for charity? Do they use their money to really love people, or just themselves, just to make themselves look good? These people use people and love money, not the other way around, and we know this because if one doesn't fit their expectations of what a Christian should be (healthy and wealthy) they make you feel lower and more sinful then they are. I even had one man say to me that I bought my illness upon myself, and if I so obviously enjoyed being unwell and stymieing Jesus' healing, why don't I just go out and stab myself with an AIDS needle. Do you think that's in the Bible?


I should have made my point more clear, I am not an advocate of the WOF movement or it's teachings. I was simply making the point that they support their teachings with scriptures and they feel like their understanding of what the scriptures mean are correct. But they can't see or won't see that it's carnal and encourages carnal behavior. Many of the WOF leaders spend a lot of time studying the scriptures and are following what they believe the scriptures say. Which makes my point that HolySpirit is to be our guide.

Many Jews still follow the scriptures yet where does it lead them?

The scriptures testify to this time and again. Many misunderstand the entity of the scriptures and many times confuse them with Jesus and HolySpirit. The scriptures are a written testimony of Jesus the Christ and HolySpirit. The scriptures are not the Word of God but rather a true written testimony of the Word of God. No one has ever been or ever will be reconciled to Father through the bible or scripture, but the scriptures are a true written testimony of reconciliation to Father through His Son Jesus the Christ. The scriptures are not a living entity but they are a true written testimony of Who is the source of life, Jesus the Christ. The scriptures can be a great source of encouragement to seek Jesus and relate to Father but relating to the scriptures is not the same as relating to Father no more than reading the biography of George Bush Jr is the same as relating to him directly.

See, this is part of it, I think. We have such ease of access to scripture while other don't. So why don't we want to read it???
And no, I wouldn't say to those who don't have a copy that they are doomed to go nowhere. But how much easier is it to get somewhere when you do have a map? Why do you think organisations work so hard to get Bibles everywhere? And to these people, every single word that they are able to read about their God is miraculous! They drink it in and treasure it, just as we should. To these people their Bible, if they have one, is the most important possession they have. And yet we, in our arrogance, think we don't need it, that God is our rudder and we should just go where our conscience tells us, and leave our map on the bookshelf.

I never said that I don't read the scriptures, as a matter of fact I have said and expressed here that I love the scriptures but I don't make them into some spiritual entity and give them the authority that belongs to Jesus, the Word of God.
Am I arrogant because I depend upon HolySpirit over man's translations of the scriptures? My relationship with Jesus and Father are much more important than any bible and if you take away my bibles I will still have a very vibrant and growing relationship with Them. Take the bibles away but I still have the teacher, HolySpirit or do you think that He can't teach without a bible?

I think its sad, because God gave us His Bible for a reason...nothing He does is without worth or purpose, don't you think?

We know there are many different bibles, some contain the apocrypha some don't some translations are dynamic some literal so which one(s) are "God's bible". When did God give us His bible?
 

Rach1370

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Hey Rach... after I wrote that I was hoping you didn't think it was directed at you... it was just me venting about something that frustrates me and this conversation brought up my feelings about it... I just honestly only worship God because I believe He's only good and when I feel like people are telling me that He basically allows the world to molest His children that seriously tweaks my head because I can't help but think would I call a parent who allows people to molest their children good? Of course not... if a parent allowed someone to molest their child when they had the ability to stop it I would say that makes them equally guilty and I know our Father is blameless.

When I was a kid I went through a lot of trials... my grandma died of cancer and my grandpa died of a heart attack 15 minutes later which left me with my Mom who got addicted to heroin and I eventually moved out on my own when I was 14 ( you could imagine all the other crap that went along with that)... to think God allowed all that to happen would make me hate Him... but to believe that all of that happened to me because of the consequences of humanities rebellion against God and believing He's the One that delivered me through it all make me worship Him and love Him... it's what's allowed me to move past that part of my life and worship God instead of being mad at God for all that suffering... I hope that makes sense why I feel so passionate about this topic.

As far as your last response Rach... I just don't agree... it's like saying God needed Joseph's brothers to do evil in order to bring salvation to many... I don't buy that... I believe God brought salvation to many through Joseph despite the brothers rebellion and wickedness... and if the brothers wouldn't have done evil to Him God still would have brought salvation through Him the only difference being there wouldn't have been a bunch of pain and sorrow inflicted by mans wickedness... it's like saying God needs evil in order to do good... when the reality is God can do good despite evil... and yeah... God is sovereign and in that sovereignty He chose to give man free will and instruction instead of making us robots and man chose to use His free will to rebel against God instead of submitting to His instruction. God doesn't need anyone to do evil to accomplish His good... the only thing evil brings is suffering which God hates...and when we do evil God isn't allowing it... we're using the gift of free will to rebel against His command. The same way a parent who's allowed their child free will isn't allowing their kid to do wrong when the kid does the opposite of what the parent tells them when they leave the house.

Don't worry, I didn't think you had directed it at me!
I think God grieves at every single sin, at every crime, atrocity and abomination. If He is good, and we know He is, then how can He not? And because He is just, everyone will be judged for their sins against God and against man. Christians are the only ones who escape this righteous judgement....something I will forever praise Jesus over...because I know I deserve it just as much.
I don't think God needed Josephs brothers to do evil, so He could turn it into good. But as evil is within this world...our own doing, not His, He uses what we have wreaked to bring about His work. It's kinda like using crap to grow a flower!! Sometimes all you can see is the crap, but if you just hang in there God may grow a flower out of what you're going through! That doesn't make God the author of the crap, but He will use it to bring about beauty.
The thing is, we shouldn't lessen God's sovereign and all powerful nature just because of the evil we do...and of course Satan. The news headlines break my heart daily, and I know God hates sin and grieves with us. But we need to trust Him, really put our faith in Him that despite all this, and despite the heartache and evil in the world, that He is in charge, and that His plan is perfect. We just need to trust and wait for that flower to grow.

I hear the Book of Job is a good read...

Back to the original topic, just because you can make scripture conform to the doctrine doesn't mean the doctrine conforms to scripture.

That's a really good point. Tell me this: how do you determine what is true doctrine, and what is the doctrine that man has made to comfort himself? Because as far as the Rapture is concerned all sides of the argument seem to have Biblical backing. If you try you can say "sure, I can see how if you come at it from that point of view, that it would mean that". But just as easily it could mean the other as well. As it's already been pointed out, all the sides of the Rapture coin have respected Biblical scholars behind them. Apart from praying and hoping God reveals the truth to you (and in this particular topic I don't feel He has for me), how do we know?
 

th1b.taylor

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When we have a prayer for healing that appears to be unanswered we need to consider that God is not our genie in a bottle or our Santa Claus.

We cannot search God's thoughts ("your thoughts are not My thoughts and your ways are not My ways.")

God has His own reasons for delaying healing or not allowing healing to take place altogether.

Many times the challenges and trust that must be strengthened in your relationship with God if he doesn't come through on YOUR timetable is important for long term growth in your relationship with Jesus.

If you trust that He loves you and is true to His word, then your 'lack of faith' concerns will be addressed, you will receive God's peace about the issue, and you will increase your knowledge of God and your trust in Him.

A great reply, Foreigner! As soon as I fell off the side of my Mixer and lost my job i began a study in the book of Job. coupled with my constant study of The Christian Manifesto, the letter to the Romans, I have learned that God has counted me 'worthy' to be tried and I understand that this is to His glory.
 

Robbie

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Cool post Rach, I agree with pretty much everything you said except for that God's in control of what's in rebellion to Him. While I believe He has the ultimate authority to remove what's in rebellion to Him. To cast it into outer darkness... I just don't believe He's in control of it. I believe He's desperate for it to submit to Him during this period of grace but I will never believe He's in control of murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. I believe the only thing God's in control of is what's submitted to Him and I believe a human that is in rebellion isn't. I just don't believe that God is in control of Godlessness... but I like everything else you said and I totally agree that in God's perfect will even man's corruption He can use for our good who love Him.

And Taylor.... As far as the whole, "Your thoughts are not my thoughts" that was before the Holy Spirit... as Paul attested to...

Listen to Paul talking about us now having God's thoughts as we now have the mind of Christ...

[sup][/sup]Paul - "But as it is written:


“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But
God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[sup][/sup]These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ."
 

th1b.taylor

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Cool post Rach, I agree with pretty much everything you said except for that God's in control of what's in rebellion to Him. While I believe He has the ultimate authority to remove what's in rebellion to Him. To cast it into outer darkness... I just don't believe He's in control of it. I believe He's desperate for it to submit to Him during this period of grace but I will never believe He's in control of murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. I believe the only thing God's in control of is what's submitted to Him and I believe a human that is in rebellion isn't. I just don't believe that God is in control of Godlessness... but I like everything else you said and I totally agree that in God's perfect will even man's corruption He can use for our good who love Him.

And Taylor.... As far as the whole, "Your thoughts are not my thoughts" that was before the Holy Spirit... as Paul attested to...

Listen to Paul talking about us now having God's thoughts as we now have the mind of Christ...

[sup][/sup]Paul - "But as it is written:


“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But
God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[sup][/sup]These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ."
Robbie,
Both of us can probably sit here and toss scripture about for days and accomplish nothing but Iḿ not into wasting my time. My thoughts were not nor do they always align with Godś now, that is what makes Paul's word in verse one of Romans 12 so important. You need to submit to God and cease the exhibition of vain pride, a.k.a. sin.

 

jiggyfly

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Robbie,
Both of us can probably sit here and toss scripture about for days and accomplish nothing but Iḿ not into wasting my time. My thoughts were not nor do they always align with Godś now, that is what makes Paul's word in verse one of Romans 12 so important. You need to submit to God and cease the exhibition of vain pride, a.k.a. sin.

Care to elaborate about your last sentence here Taylor? Where has Robbie exhibited vain pride?
 

Robbie

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I guess pointing out that the Spirit of God entering us and receiving the mind of Christ changes things is exhibiting vain pride?

That's interesting because that was the first verse that ever made me trip out at the church I went to. The pastor read the part where it said eye had not seen nor ear heard and then started talking about that part like it's still the way it is today and then when he went back to the bible he skipped the next part. I always had a bad habit of continuing to read past what he was telling us to read and I was like, "Did he just leave out the next part that said, "But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit"

That was actually the turning point where I quit following the pastor reading the bible and started reading it for myself.
 

Rach1370

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I should have made my point more clear, I am not an advocate of the WOF movement or it's teachings. I was simply making the point that they support their teachings with scriptures and they feel like their understanding of what the scriptures mean are correct. But they can't see or won't see that it's carnal and encourages carnal behavior. Many of the WOF leaders spend a lot of time studying the scriptures and are following what they believe the scriptures say. Which makes my point that HolySpirit is to be our guide.

Many Jews still follow the scriptures yet where does it lead them?

The scriptures testify to this time and again. Many misunderstand the entity of the scriptures and many times confuse them with Jesus and HolySpirit. The scriptures are a written testimony of Jesus the Christ and HolySpirit. The scriptures are not the Word of God but rather a true written testimony of the Word of God. No one has ever been or ever will be reconciled to Father through the bible or scripture, but the scriptures are a true written testimony of reconciliation to Father through His Son Jesus the Christ. The scriptures are not a living entity but they are a true written testimony of Who is the source of life, Jesus the Christ. The scriptures can be a great source of encouragement to seek Jesus and relate to Father but relating to the scriptures is not the same as relating to Father no more than reading the biography of George Bush Jr is the same as relating to him directly.

Ok! I agree that the scriptures aren't a living entity. I do hold them higher than you do apparently, but that may be just because I feel that even if it is only a book...(even if it's not 'inspired', which I believe it is), that even a book given to us by God should be treasured. And I do know people who God has used the scriptures, reading them, to bring them to Him.
Anyway, I think you're wrong, but I'm also happy for you to think the same of me!!!

I never said that I don't read the scriptures, as a matter of fact I have said and expressed here that I love the scriptures but I don't make them into some spiritual entity and give them the authority that belongs to Jesus, the Word of God.
Am I arrogant because I depend upon HolySpirit over man's translations of the scriptures? My relationship with Jesus and Father are much more important than any bible and if you take away my bibles I will still have a very vibrant and growing relationship with Them. Take the bibles away but I still have the teacher, HolySpirit or do you think that He can't teach without a bible?

I'm glad you have such a close relationship with the Holy Spirit. Please don't think I'm staring down my nose at you. I think the point I'm trying to make is that Satan makes it's his life's work to deceive, and he's very good at it. I just think that when we are walking the Christian walk, that it's just wise to use all the tools that God has provided for us. Does that make sense?? Yes, if all the Bible's were suddenly burned, and we had none, then we would be fine, God would provide, His Spirit guiding us. But as we do have the book He gave us, well, I think it's good to use it!

We know there are many different bibles, some contain the apocrypha some don't some translations are dynamic some literal so which one(s) are "God's bible". When did God give us His bible?

This is tricky. I'll give you that! I think it comes down to trust, and as you say, relying on the Holy Spirit. The translations I read have been compiled by men I know are Biblically sound, so I trust them to be true to God's word. And to be honest, whenever I hear of the Apocrypha, I just feel uneasy, like something tip toeing around heresy. Is that the Holy Spirit guiding me or my own bias? Not sure to be honest. But whether they are missing books or not, I am sure that every word I read in my Bible is sound....from God for my growing and encouragement. That's just what I believe.
 

Robbie

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I believe the scriptures are 100% right in what they testify to... as long as you realize some testify to the old which is passed away and some testify to the new... thank Jesus for the new!
 

jiggyfly

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This is tricky. I'll give you that! I think it comes down to trust, and as you say, relying on the Holy Spirit. The translations I read have been compiled by men I know are Biblically sound, so I trust them to be true to God's word. And to be honest, whenever I hear of the Apocrypha, I just feel uneasy, like something tip toeing around heresy. Is that the Holy Spirit guiding me or my own bias? Not sure to be honest. But whether they are missing books or not, I am sure that every word I read in my Bible is sound....from God for my growing and encouragement. That's just what I believe.

When do you think that God gave us the bible?


 

Rach1370

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When do you think that God gave us the bible?

Well, the Bible is a collection of books that were written over the period of 1000's of years. The first 5 books in the OT were written (mostly) by Moses...He was told by God to write it down.
The last book in the bible is Revelations, written by the disciple John, most commonly believed to have been written in 90AD. He also, was told to write down what he heard and saw.
A lot of the OT is history, both of Israel and of God's interaction with His people through His covenant....their falling away from it, Him bringing them back again.
The gospels in the NT tells us the story of Christ, which are pretty darn important!! Paul's writings cover the growth of the new church. Of the things that the Spirit had revealed to him...which he says...can't remember where off the top of my head....can try to find it for you if you want.

So as far as when, I don't think God said at one point, here people, read this....I think He always intended for us to have it, which is why He had His prophets and messengers write them down as they went along. Each author had a unique qualifier to be writing a book of the Bible...they were servants and messengers of God, prophets and Kings, all anointed by the Spirit. And when all the books come together they all point to one thing: Jesus.
 

th1b.taylor

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Care to elaborate about your last sentence here Taylor? Where has Robbie exhibited vain pride?

considering post #80 and onward, there is evidence of attitude.


I believe the scriptures are 100% right in what they testify to... as long as you realize some testify to the old which is passed away and some testify to the new... thank Jesus for the new!

And Matt. 5:18 say, in the words of Jesus, exactly the opposite.

Can you hear it now jiggyfly?
 

Robbie

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So I guess being honest about feelings is having an attitude? How christian of you to think so... haha

In case you missed as soon as I felt my conversation with foreigner escalate in a negative direction I didn't respond to him once...

And man... I know you can't put new wine into old wine skins or they'll pop so I'm not even gonna try to explain to you what Jesus was talking about in M 5:18 being accomplished at the moment He said, "It is finished!"... especially since you seem to see yourself as Mr. expert bible man and you don't even know how much the very bible you claim to know talks more than a lot about the Old and the New Covenant and the old one passing away...

Hope you figure it out dude... and that's me saying I hope you're blessed with perfect revelation of every thing good... All in All...

I'll also be hiding you... I'm over bickering... such a waste...
 

veteran

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Deut 8:2-3
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep His commandments, or no.
3 And He humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
(KJV)

God's Holy Writ is a whole lot more than a collection of writings or books. Holy Writ is The Living Word of God, and will never pass away. It is a lot different than man's idea of literature. There's a lot of unbelievers in the universities that teach religious studies that treat The Bible as a group of writings comparable to religious writings of other religions. They do that in ignorance of what God's Word really is; they don't know the difference. But those in Christ Jesus should... know the difference.

Religious writings of other religions are man's writings, since God did not call them to give His Word. Those other religious writings are man trying to approach the Divine on their own, struggling for the Truth, while God's Word He gave through those He called in The Bible is The Truth. Big difference between Truth and the idea of religion.

There is no other known literature like God's Holy Writ. It is much more than just words grouped to form sentences. God's Word has a particular type of structure that no other known literature has. It has Holy Spirit markings in the structure that reveal a Divine Hand that no other literature of man has. One of the best study Bibles that reveals this is E.W. Bullinger's KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible. The Christian scholar Bullinger lists this structure in the side margins. The layout of the subjects when outlined reveal a remarkable structure, actually miraculous. No man when writing could do it regardless of the amount of pre-planning.

Another service Bullinger did was to research the lost meanings of the twelve star constellations, per his work The Witness of The Stars. Over time the 12 constellation names and meanings have become corrupted by pagan religion. Bullinger did a lot of travelling to discover archaeological artifacts that reveal a most ancient description of the constellations much different than the pagan meanings given them later. What he found was God's Word written in the star constellations. What literature of man has such a history as that? None.

What man today can give writings that prophesy future events down to a tee, even thousands of years ahead of time? None. Yet that's what God's Word has done, AND still IS doing today, for much prophecy that's written in God's Word The Bible has yet to come to pass, but will eventually. We can count on it to come to pass as written because It is The Truth, and not just words of men.