The Rapture

[jiggyfly]

Well, the Bible is a collection of books that were written over the period of 1000's of years. The first 5 books in the OT were written (mostly) by Moses...He was told by God to write it down.
The last book in the bible is Revelations, written by the disciple John, most commonly believed to have been written in 90AD. He also, was told to write down what he heard and saw.
A lot of the OT is history, both of Israel and of God's interaction with His people through His covenant....their falling away from it, Him bringing them back again.
The gospels in the NT tells us the story of Christ, which are pretty darn important!! Paul's writings cover the growth of the new church. Of the things that the Spirit had revealed to him...which he says...can't remember where off the top of my head....can try to find it for you if you want.

So as far as when, I don't think God said at one point, here people, read this....I think He always intended for us to have it, which is why He had His prophets and messengers write them down as they went along. Each author had a unique qualifier to be writing a book of the Bible...they were servants and messengers of God, prophets and Kings, all anointed by the Spirit. And when all the books come together they all point to one thing: Jesus.

I agree that the bible is a compilation of books and letters (scriptures) by various writers and that most were written in Hebrew or Greek. You made the comment that God gave us the bible, so when did God give us the bible and what books does it include?
I do agree with you that the scriptures all point to one person and it's Jesus, so do you think there is a purpose for the scriptures once we have found what all the scriptures point to?

God's Holy Writ is a whole lot more than a collection of writings or books. Holy Writ is The Living Word of God, and will never pass away.

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.


Jesus is the Living Word of God. But I have seen many bible pass away and much of the original texts no longer exist so they to have passed away.

 

[rockytopva]

-- Again, unfortunately there is no scripture that supports the concept of 'purgatory.'

I believe that purgatory is the brainstorm of one Dante Alighieri..

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus is the Living Word of God. But I have seen many bible pass away and much of the original texts no longer exist so they to have passed away.

I honestly don't know what you are implying.

 

[rockytopva]

I honestly don't know what you are implying.

It like... Huh?:blink:

 

[jiggyfly]

I honestly don't know what you are implying.

Thats OK

 

[th1b.taylor]

What, because he disagrees, he has an attitude? Taylor I think your mistaken about this.

Everyone has an opinion and none of them matter! On the other hand, the Word of God is a solid rock to stand on!

But I have seen many bible pass away and much of the original texts no longer exist so they to have passed away.

Whoa Hoss! Will you back that claim up with proof or should we write it off as another straw man to slaughter?

 

[Joshua David]

Robbie,

I know I'm pushing this but this is one thing that pisses me off the same way I'd be pissed if someone said my Mom allowed someone to hurt me when I was a child when I know she only loves me and would never allow anyone to hurt me... to me I feel like people are talking trash on my Father when they say He allows evil... the truth is if everyone submitted themselves to God right now I'm 100% positive there would be no trials or evil but like Paul said all would be subject to Him and God would be all in all... trials since the beginning have always been the result of our Father's creation rebelling against Him... and I'll stand up for Him 100% that nothing evil comes from His Will.

I have a question Robbie, when you were a child, did your mom ever carry you to the doctor, and the doctor said that you needed a shot? Did the shot hurt? Did your mom stand there and let it happen?

Brother, I am not saying that your mom did not love you. In fact it was her love for you that caused her to stand there while you got hurt, even though it was quite possible that you could not understand it at the time. Why would your mom, who you know loves you, just stand there and let this person hurt you? You couldn't understand it then. You can now. Could you not at least acknowledge that God may allow you to go through some pain that he can use for your benefit? Your mom stood by because she knew that in the

Everything that hurts us is not necessarily evil. Some of it is, granted. But not all. When I work out with weights, when I haven't worked out in a while, my muscles hurt the next day. That muscle pain means that my muscles are restoring themselves. They are becoming stronger. And in fact, I couldn't get stronger without experiencing this pain.

And what is true about our physical bodies, is also true with our spiritual walk with God. I am not saying that God brings us pain and nothing else. But that it is the trials and pain that we go through that brings us closer to God. It sounds backwards, but it is true. Look at the Children of Israel. They followed the same pattern over and over. God would bless them, they would get lax in their service of God, they would start to follow other gods, God would send them prophets to warn them, they would persecute the prophets, God would bring another nation to chastise them, they would repent and turn back to God, God would forgive them and then he would bless them. They would get lax in their service to God..... over and over and over.

Here is another example. Some of the churches that are the most spirit-filled and are the fastest growing are not those in the United States, but in countries where being a Christian means you are severely persecuted, like China, or some of the middle eastern countries.

I know it might not make any sense, but when we are at our lowest, when we are gripped by pain and despair, that is when we turn to God in a broken and contrite spirit. When our life is one ray of sunshine after another, and we are basking in the blessings of God, that is when we are more likely ( not definitely ) to not strive to please God. But forgive me if I offended you, that was not my intention. I was just trying to share my point of view.

Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

When do you think that God gave us the bible?

It's His personal letter to us, have you read it?

I agree that the bible is a compilation of books and letters (scriptures) by various writers and that most were written in Hebrew or Greek. You made the comment that God gave us the bible, so when did God give us the bible and what books does it include?
I do agree with you that the scriptures all point to one person and it's Jesus, so do you think there is a purpose for the scriptures once we have found what all the scriptures point to?

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.

Jesus is the Living Word of God. But I have seen many bible pass away and much of the original texts no longer exist so they to have passed away.

I read the first question wrong, God gave us His Word in Creation. Just look up at the Heavens, His whole plan is written in the stars.

 

[Foreigner]

Robbie,



I have a question Robbie, when you were a child, did your mom ever carry you to the doctor, and the doctor said that you needed a shot? Did the shot hurt? Did your mom stand there and let it happen?

Brother, I am not saying that your mom did not love you. In fact it was her love for you that caused her to stand there while you got hurt, even though it was quite possible that you could not understand it at the time. Why would your mom, who you know loves you, just stand there and let this person hurt you? You couldn't understand it then. You can now. Could you not at least acknowledge that God may allow you to go through some pain that he can use for your benefit? Your mom stood by because she knew that in the

Everything that hurts us is not necessarily evil. Some of it is, granted. But not all. When I work out with weights, when I haven't worked out in a while, my muscles hurt the next day. That muscle pain means that my muscles are restoring themselves. They are becoming stronger. And in fact, I couldn't get stronger without experiencing this pain.

And what is true about our physical bodies, is also true with our spiritual walk with God. I am not saying that God brings us pain and nothing else. But that it is the trials and pain that we go through that brings us closer to God. It sounds backwards, but it is true. Look at the Children of Israel. They followed the same pattern over and over. God would bless them, they would get lax in their service of God, they would start to follow other gods, God would send them prophets to warn them, they would persecute the prophets, God would bring another nation to chastise them, they would repent and turn back to God, God would forgive them and then he would bless them. They would get lax in their service to God..... over and over and over.

Here is another example. Some of the churches that are the most spirit-filled and are the fastest growing are not those in the United States, but in countries where being a Christian means you are severely persecuted, like China, or some of the middle eastern countries.

I know it might not make any sense, but when we are at our lowest, when we are gripped by pain and despair, that is when we turn to God in a broken and contrite spirit. When our life is one ray of sunshine after another, and we are basking in the blessings of God, that is when we are more likely ( not definitely ) to not strive to please God. But forgive me if I offended you, that was not my intention. I was just trying to share my point of view.

Joshua David

-- An absolutely outstanding post J.D.



.

 

[Robbie]

haha... Joshua man... how you going to compare being raped by satan to getting a shot from a doctor? If God was to take us to satan and sit there and watch while satan pillaged us it wouldn't be like him taking us to a doctor... it would be like Him taking us to a liar, a thief and a murderer's house and sitting there and watching while satan had his way and molested us. I mean you seriously gonna call satan a doctor? haha... He's a liar, a thief and a murderer... not a doctor. Being molested by satan isn't like a shot that destroys disease... it's being molested by a liar, a thief and a murderer and if my Father took me somewhere to let that happen to me I'd think He was sick and twisted and I'd hate Him and run as far away from Him as I could as I'd see both God and satan as sick and twisted. There have been wicked effed up people that have taken their children to places where they've known they were being molested... do you also see those people as taking their children to doctors? You know that's nonsense homey...

Thanks to Jesus I know the character of my Father and I know He would never do that to me. He only delivers me from His enemies... He never delivers me to them and sits back and watches while they hurt me.

As far as the reason why God's power is more present in other countries where christianity isn't legal. It's not that it's oppressed that gives it power... that's like saying the Holy Spirit needs an enemy to gain power... the Holy Spirit doesn't need an enemy... He's as powerful as He is always... I believe it's the fact that it's not commercialized and incorporated with the world in those countries and people still have to depend on the Spirit of God instead of turning it into a corporate business based on an intellectual study that's taught by doctors of theology who teach that knowing God is memorizing and becoming an expert in a book. But I'm sure the more people they take Americhristianity over land and sea to win converts the less you'll see the power of the Spirit in those places because the power of the Spirit through Jesus is about knowing our Father through His Spirit and not becoming an expert in theology through a book. The letter kills.... the Spirit gives Life... and you can't serve God and money.

 

[jiggyfly]

Everyone has an opinion and none of them matter! On the other hand, the Word of God is a solid rock to stand on!




Whoa Hoss! Will you back that claim up with proof or should we write it off as another straw man to slaughter?

Well I thought it was common knowledge that much of the original texts no longer exist.
Am I the only one who has had to dispose of bibles because they were falling apart ? I have seen and heard of many bibles getting burned up in house fires.

 

[TWC]

That's a really good point. Tell me this: how do you determine what is true doctrine, and what is the doctrine that man has made to comfort himself? Because as far as the Rapture is concerned all sides of the argument seem to have Biblical backing. If you try you can say "sure, I can see how if you come at it from that point of view, that it would mean that". But just as easily it could mean the other as well. As it's already been pointed out, all the sides of the Rapture coin have respected Biblical scholars behind them. Apart from praying and hoping God reveals the truth to you (and in this particular topic I don't feel He has for me), how do we know?

There are two distinct arguments over the rapture. The first argument is over whether there is one. The second argument only applies to those who believe in the rapture, and it's over when said rapture is supposed to occur. I'm not saying that I don't believe in a rapture, but that I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture.

John 10:1-5
“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well I thought it was common knowledge that much of the original texts no longer exist.
Am I the only one who has had to dispose of bibles because they were falling apart ? I have seen and heard of many bibles getting burned up in house fires.

You fronted a broad based, un founded and unsupported statement that without substantial 'real' evidence is tottering on the brink of being a lie! So... where are you going to let it fall?

 

[Duckybill]

You fronted a broad based, un founded and unsupported statement that without substantial 'real' evidence is tottering on the brink of being a lie! So... where are you going to let it fall?

I think the way Jiggy worded it originally is a little misleading. I misunderstood his original statement. I hope anyway : )

 

[th1b.taylor]

There are two distinct arguments over the rapture. The first argument is over whether there is one. The second argument only applies to those who believe in the rapture, and it's over when said rapture is supposed to occur. I'm not saying that I don't believe in a rapture, but that I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture.

John 10:1-5
“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

TWC,
She asked a righteous question and you just blew your nose on the sidewalk and did the Obama Shuffle! Now Iḿ interested to see you stand up, fess up and tell the truth, can answer her with a direct answer?

 

[Rach1370]

I agree that the bible is a compilation of books and letters (scriptures) by various writers and that most were written in Hebrew or Greek. You made the comment that God gave us the bible, so when did God give us the bible and what books does it include?
I do agree with you that the scriptures all point to one person and it's Jesus, so do you think there is a purpose for the scriptures once we have found what all the scriptures point to?

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.


Jesus is the Living Word of God. But I have seen many bible pass away and much of the original texts no longer exist so they to have passed away.

Hey jiggy. Ok, obviously God gave us the Pentateuch. When He told Moses to write these things down, He had a purpose...probably many actually. For history...to show God active in it. So the Jews would have a written account of it, of the laws. Even though the old covenant has passed away it is still a really useful teaching tool for us to have. The gospels are essential to what we believe, and what about the letters? Why did Paul write so many of his letters to the different churches?
For instruction, for correction, for encouragement. Even once we have 'discovered the purpose of scripture' do you really think we don't need any of those things? The bible tells us we are suppose to grow, in wisdom and knowledge. That we are supposed to teach and be taught. Let me ask you a question. When you start to study a subject you get a text book. If you read it once through and say "a ha!...it's a book on biology" do you then put it aside because you know everything? No, you study it, memorize it.
God has given us this book, through direct command, and divine inspiration...causing men to write down things that will help the children of God throughout history. Can you not see how great a tool scripture is?
We have an advantage in that we do have the Holy Spirit to help us, guide and direct us. But our lives should be spent in a state of constant spiritual growth. We shouldn't step away from scripture and church...community with others...expectant the the Spirit will guide us always and we are now dandy and dapper and have nothing more to do other then follow our instincts. We should study, submit, grow...do everything in our power to grow in knowledge of our God. What Has He told us we should do? What is His advice on church matters, marriage, arguments, gifts of the Spirit? All these matters and more are covered in the Bible. And quite honestly, even if they weren't, would you want to know about the men who were taught by Jesus Himself? The men who were gifted so greatly by the Spirit that they performed miracles we hardly see anymore. Men who were so passionate in their faith, so strong and confident in it, that they didn't waver even under horrible persecution. These are men we should study, even if they're words weren't inspired.

 

[Rach1370]

There are two distinct arguments over the rapture. The first argument is over whether there is one. The second argument only applies to those who believe in the rapture, and it's over when said rapture is supposed to occur. I'm not saying that I don't believe in a rapture, but that I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture.

John 10:1-5
“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

Ok. But this didn't really answer my question. I pretty much know every argument over the Rapture. But my question was is there a Biblical way to know which teaching is sound? When all sides have Biblically respected scholars backing them, and the passages in question could easily be read either way, is there a faithful way to know which doctrine is sound, and which is not?
I get that we are to pray for God's guidance on such matters, and I do so, often. But I have not yet recieved peace on this subject, so I believe I must study, pray and seek until I do. I am not interested in settling on the theory and doctrine that I like the best, I want the truth, the thing that God meant exactly when He spoke of this time.

 

[jiggyfly]

You fronted a broad based, un founded and unsupported statement that without substantial 'real' evidence is tottering on the brink of being a lie! So... where are you going to let it fall?

Tis your opinion and your entitled to it. Been accused of worse, seems I still ruffle religious feathers.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey jiggy. Ok, obviously God gave us the Pentateuch. When He told Moses to write these things down, He had a purpose...probably many actually. For history...to show God active in it. So the Jews would have a written account of it, of the laws. Even though the old covenant has passed away it is still a really useful teaching tool for us to have. The gospels are essential to what we believe, and what about the letters? Why did Paul write so many of his letters to the different churches?
For instruction, for correction, for encouragement. Even once we have 'discovered the purpose of scripture' do you really think we don't need any of those things? The bible tells us we are suppose to grow, in wisdom and knowledge. That we are supposed to teach and be taught. Let me ask you a question. When you start to study a subject you get a text book. If you read it once through and say "a ha!...it's a book on biology" do you then put it aside because you know everything? No, you study it, memorize it.
God has given us this book, through direct command, and divine inspiration...causing men to write down things that will help the children of God throughout history. Can you not see how great a tool scripture is?
We have an advantage in that we do have the Holy Spirit to help us, guide and direct us. But our lives should be spent in a state of constant spiritual growth. We shouldn't step away from scripture and church...community with others...expectant the the Spirit will guide us always and we are now dandy and dapper and have nothing more to do other then follow our instincts. We should study, submit, grow...do everything in our power to grow in knowledge of our God. What Has He told us we should do? What is His advice on church matters, marriage, arguments, gifts of the Spirit? All these matters and more are covered in the Bible. And quite honestly, even if they weren't, would you want to know about the men who were taught by Jesus Himself? The men who were gifted so greatly by the Spirit that they performed miracles we hardly see anymore. Men who were so passionate in their faith, so strong and confident in it, that they didn't waver even under horrible persecution. These are men we should study, even if they're words weren't inspired.

Why do I get the impression that you are deliberately eluding my question.
When did God give us the bible( the compilation of canonized books and letters)???

 

[rockytopva]

Why do I get the impression that you are deliberately eluding my question.
When did God give us the bible( the compilation of canonized books and letters)???

I think jiggyfly is totally in the wrong here...


[sup]20[/sup]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [sup]21[/sup]For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. - 2 Peter 1:20, 21

The King James Version of the Bible, is an English translation by the Church of England of the Christian Bible begun in 1604 and completed in 1611. James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy. The translation was by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England. In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin.

So our Bible has came down through history being spoke first by the men of God as moved by the Holy Ghost.

Years ago a teenage girl in our church got 'drunk in the Spirit.' You could not talk to her , she would only give you a heavenly laugh in return. Well, the next night she testified. She said that she did not sleep for reading the Bible all night long. That's the Holy Ghost! When you get filled with the Holy Ghost you will take an immediate interest in the word of God!