The Rapture

[Rach1370]

Why do I get the impression that you are deliberately eluding my question.
When did God give us the bible( the compilation of canonized books and letters)???

Okaaay. Am not attempting to elude. I thought I had been answering. Sorry.
Alright, let me try shortening my answer...sum it up a bit. I don't think you can say "God gave us the 'bible' in 110AD (or something)" just as you can't say that our Bible is one book, written by the same author. The Bible came together over a vast amount of time, by many different hands, but all at the instruction and guidance of God. My point was that when God told Moses to write, told the OT prophets to write, told John to write Revelations...He was giving scripture to us. When He inspired the other books to be written, empowering Paul to send so much advice and encouragement to the young churches....He was giving us the Bible.
I think you are trying to get me to say that the Bible we have at present is a compilation put together by men. And yes, many Godly men, whith much prayer and study and conversation put together the books that are canonized. But the words within those books are still Gods. And if you so very much support the fact that people...Christians are strongly Spirit led, then why would you doubt that the Spirit wouldn't choose to lead these men so that the gospel is continued? You can't say that you are so strongly Spirit led that you don't need to rely on anything else, and then say that it applies only to you. Yes the Spirit leads, yes He is powerful and amazing and works for the Glory of God the Father. So why do you question the book He had a part in writing or have written?

 

[rockytopva]

I have never heard a truly... Holy Ghost.... Spirit filled Christian deny the word of God... Not once!

John Bunyan once said that you can tell if a Christian is clean by two means...

1. They part the hooves... They live a life apart from the world.
2. They chew the cud... They delight in the word of God.

Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. - Leviticus 11:4

If any of these factors is false that person... According to John Bunyan... Knows not the Holy Ghost.

 

[rockytopva]

I am working on my E = mc2 video... Which values are Boolean...

E / C2 = Energy / Light

Z / d = Absolute zero / darkness

In which there are spiritual values....

E / C2 - Love, warmth, faith, hope, joy, and charity

and its opposites

z / d - Hate, coldness, fear, depression, sorrow, and greed.

So this lead me to study George Boole, in whose dying words acknowledged the word of God as the superior form of the Universe....

George Boole (1815–1864) was an English mathematician and a founder of algebraic logic. He worked as a schoolmaster in England until his early death in which he told his wife that the whole universe seemed to be spread before him like a great black ocean, where there was nothing to see and nothing to hear, except at intervals a silver trumpet seemed to sound across the waters, ‘For ever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.’ (Ps 119:89)

“All life embodies yin (z/d) and embraces yang (E/c2).” -LT

Boole believed that the only numbers that made X = X2 true, 0 and 1, also made them perfect numbers. And so we have the birth of Boolean Algebra in which everything is either true or false, 0 or 1, or, on or off. Which is the foundation of the computer / electrical world. The Chinese stumbled across this truth in one of mankind's earliest works… The IChing… In which the whole worlds influence is in the E/c2 (---) 'above' and the z/d (- -) 'beneath' , as so said by Lao-Tzu (LT), which is also dualist in philosophy.

 

[jiggyfly]

Okaaay. Am not attempting to elude. I thought I had been answering. Sorry.
Alright, let me try shortening my answer...sum it up a bit. I don't think you can say "God gave us the 'bible' in 110AD (or something)" just as you can't say that our Bible is one book, written by the same author. The Bible came together over a vast amount of time, by many different hands, but all at the instruction and guidance of God. My point was that when God told Moses to write, told the OT prophets to write, told John to write Revelations...He was giving scripture to us. When He inspired the other books to be written, empowering Paul to send so much advice and encouragement to the young churches....He was giving us the Bible.
I think you are trying to get me to say that the Bible we have at present is a compilation put together by men. And yes, many Godly men, whith much prayer and study and conversation put together the books that are canonized. But the words within those books are still Gods. And if you so very much support the fact that people...Christians are strongly Spirit led, then why would you doubt that the Spirit wouldn't choose to lead these men so that the gospel is continued? You can't say that you are so strongly Spirit led that you don't need to rely on anything else, and then say that it applies only to you. Yes the Spirit leads, yes He is powerful and amazing and works for the Glory of God the Father. So why do you question the book He had a part in writing or have written?

First off, the compilation of canonized scripture that we know as the bible was put together in the fourth century A.D. Which means, while the Christ followers of the first 3 centuries had some scriptures, no one had a bible because it had not been put together yet.


I don't question scripture but I do question man's translations and interpretations of it.

 

[Rach1370]

First off, the compilation of canonized scripture that we know as the bible was put together in the fourth century A.D. Which means, while the Christ followers of the first 3 centuries had some scriptures, no one had a bible because it had not been put together yet.

I don't question scripture but I do question man's translations and interpretations of it.

Then you don't trust God to see His word continued? I know you surely must trust Him! Why is it hard to think that even in the hands of sinful and fallible men He could not ensure His truth remains? He is all, and can do all! This is a big part of what faith is, I think. Knowing that our God is sovereign and is personally involved in human history. If we have faith in these things we can have faith in the fact that he will oversee and guide such things, despite what sin may get in its way.

Every time I read scripture my heart rings with it's truth. I truly believe that the Holy Spirit rejoices as I read His truth, God's truth. Really when it all comes down to it, I think it's that simple. Names, dates....honestly, I don't get worked up about. I know what I read is from God...every single word points to Jesus and glorifies God...and if it does that, it's true.

 

[jiggyfly]

Every time I read scripture my heart rings with it's truth. I truly believe that the Holy Spirit rejoices as I read His truth, God's truth. Really when it all comes down to it, I think it's that simple. Names, dates....honestly, I don't get worked up about. I know what I read is from God...every single word points to Jesus and glorifies God...and if it does that, it's true.

This I agree with, and if it doesn't point to Jesus and glorify God it is not the truth.

As far as trusting God to see His Word continue, I do, His Word (Jesus) continues and lives in me. I am His epistle.

What do you think of the mormon bible, the JW bible and bibles that contain the apocrypha?

 

[Duckybill]

I don't question scripture but I do question man's translations and interpretations of it.

So then, you read Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? Actually I think our English translations are quite consistent overall.

 

[veteran]

Ok. But this didn't really answer my question. I pretty much know every argument over the Rapture. But my question was is there a Biblical way to know which teaching is sound? When all sides have Biblically respected scholars backing them, and the passages in question could easily be read either way, is there a faithful way to know which doctrine is sound, and which is not?
I get that we are to pray for God's guidance on such matters, and I do so, often. But I have not yet recieved peace on this subject, so I believe I must study, pray and seek until I do. I am not interested in settling on the theory and doctrine that I like the best, I want the truth, the thing that God meant exactly when He spoke of this time.

There is a way to know, but it doesn't come from men's doctrines, nor just by reading scholarly commentaries. It comes by staying in God's Holy Writ and prayer. Christ Jesus said by continuing in His Word is how to become His disciple, and that's how we would know the truth, and the truth would make us free.

Our gathering to Christ Jesus at His return is going to occur only one way, not many different ways. It will happen as written in God's Word, which requires understanding in all of His Word, not just relying on a couple of verses. In other words, it is not only revealed by Paul in 1 Thess.4 alone, it is revealed throughout the whole Bible, including the OT prophets, which is where Apostle Paul was mostly pulling from.

Many things written in the New Testament Books pull directly from the Old Testament Books. Yet most of the various interpretations by men's doctrines of the gathering of the saints to Christ are based mostly from the New Testament Books.

In Acts 1 how Christ returns is only hinted at. But Zechariah 14 in the OT prophets gives a direct detail of His return to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. What does that show? The last nine chapters of Ezekiel are about the future Millennial reign of Christ and His elect, and actually gives more details of it than Revelation. What does that show? I see that like God saying, "Do I really have to show you this again?"

If we ask a minister that covers the gathering to Christ from only the New Testament, a question like, "Where's the Old Testament witnesses that go with that?", and they say something like, "We don't live in the Old Testament anymore," or, "The Old Testament is all history," then how can we expect to know? I've covered Zechariah 14 to believers past middle age that had been going to Church all their lives, and they had never studied it before. And that's only one OT witness.

Once we cover all the OT and NT witnesses, then The Holy Spirit will put it all together for us in time.

 

[rockytopva]

I simply know that the word of God is real... Not because of the knowledge I have gained... But by the Spirit I have experienced! When I was unsaved I had no interest at all in the word of God. but after I experienced the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal church it became the book most dear and the paramount basis of my salvation. As far as the influence of men I understand that the word has been interpreted different through many versions, but the original Greek and Hebrew was divinely inspired... The Holy Spirit says so! Yes! The Holy Spirit says so!

 

[veteran]

John 10:7-13
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before Me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
(KJV)


Jude 1:3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


The problem with men's doctrines is not really about different Bible translations (though some are better than others, I agree). The real problem is with not heeding our Lord and His Apostles' warnings, like the one above. That's where the majority of confusion comes from.

 

[rockytopva]

Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: - Ephesians 6:17

I am glad you guys are defending the word of God... Our only offensive weapon!


[sup]13[/sup]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [sup]14[/sup]Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

[sup]15[/sup]And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

[sup]16[/sup]Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

[sup]17[/sup]And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:- Ephesians 6: 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

 

[th1b.taylor]

Tis your opinion and your entitled to it. Been accused of worse, seems I still ruffle religious feathers.

There you go again... off the end of the pier!

There are a few things about Jesus that you seem to have totally missed or chose to totally ignore. Jesus, found in the Gospel Accounts, did not come to save the religious. To worship God, religion must be cast aside and we must, instead, worship God/Jesus in Spirit and in Truth, found in the account of Jesus and the Samaritan Woman. From this it is perfectly correct to suspect the person naming the name of Christ but still maintaining rotten fruit.

Add to this that Jesus is Rach's and my brother and this Christian Walk, not religion, becomes a very personal "Relationship" having, absolutely, nothing to do with religion. So, your comment about "religious feathers" is just another Straw Man erected for you to mount you imaginary White Steed to slaughter.

Now... GET REAL, ok? Stop dancing the Obama Jig and speak from the truth in your sinful heart.

I have never heard a truly... Holy Ghost.... Spirit filled Christian deny the word of God... Not once!

John Bunyan once said that you can tell if a Christian is clean by two means...

1. They part the hooves... They live a life apart from the world.
2. They chew the cud... They delight in the word of God.

Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. - Leviticus 11:4

If any of these factors is false that person... According to John Bunyan... Knows not the Holy Ghost.

Your use of John Bunyan is refreshing... so many have not read his works today!

 

[TWC]

TWC,
She asked a righteous question and you just blew your nose on the sidewalk and did the Obama Shuffle! Now Iḿ interested to see you stand up, fess up and tell the truth, can answer her with a direct answer?

I gave a direct statement about what I believe and followed that up with scripture. If that's blowing my nose on the sidewalk and doing the "Obama shuffle" then I might actually want to vote for him. Veteran understood exactly what I meant, and I was about to give the exact same reply until I read his. Christ's sheep will not heed the voice of a stranger.

There is a way to know, but it doesn't come from men's doctrines, nor just by reading scholarly commentaries. It comes by staying in God's Holy Writ and prayer. Christ Jesus said by continuing in His Word is how to become His disciple, and that's how we would know the truth, and the truth would make us free.

Our gathering to Christ Jesus at His return is going to occur only one way, not many different ways. It will happen as written in God's Word, which requires understanding in all of His Word, not just relying on a couple of verses. In other words, it is not only revealed by Paul in 1 Thess.4 alone, it is revealed throughout the whole Bible, including the OT prophets, which is where Apostle Paul was mostly pulling from.

Many things written in the New Testament Books pull directly from the Old Testament Books. Yet most of the various interpretations by men's doctrines of the gathering of the saints to Christ are based mostly from the New Testament Books.

In Acts 1 how Christ returns is only hinted at. But Zechariah 14 in the OT prophets gives a direct detail of His return to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. What does that show? The last nine chapters of Ezekiel are about the future Millennial reign of Christ and His elect, and actually gives more details of it than Revelation. What does that show? I see that like God saying, "Do I really have to show you this again?"

If we ask a minister that covers the gathering to Christ from only the New Testament, a question like, "Where's the Old Testament witnesses that go with that?", and they say something like, "We don't live in the Old Testament anymore," or, "The Old Testament is all history," then how can we expect to know? I've covered Zechariah 14 to believers past middle age that had been going to Church all their lives, and they had never studied it before. And that's only one OT witness.

Once we cover all the OT and NT witnesses, then The Holy Spirit will put it all together for us in time.

 

[rockytopva]

Where do you find that Jesus taught that the "bible" is the Word of God? Is there any mention of the "bible" in the scriptures?

OK guys... The word of God is discounted here... Lets all turn to the funny paper and we will spend our time joking one with another.... Not!

 

[th1b.taylor]

First off, the compilation of canonized scripture that we know as the bible was put together in the fourth century A.D. Which means, while the Christ followers of the first 3 centuries had some scriptures, no one had a bible because it had not been put together yet.

I don't question scripture but I do question man's translations and interpretations of it.

That is one of the most uninformed statements I have head fronted since thye Vietnam War! The Bible was canonized by the Jews, long before Jesus was born! That same Bible is now published with the 27, later. canonized Commentaries to include the 4 Gospels we use today. You, neighbor, are one of the rottenest Thread Hijackers I have come across in 21 years! Of course, not being a Moderator here I will need to stand down and report you to the Admin. here. You have not only come in here to hijack this thread considering the Rapture, you have perpetuated some of the most ridiculous lies I have ever heard spew from the lips of anyone4 professing the name of the Christ!

 

[rockytopva]

That is one of the most uninformed statements I have head fronted since thye Vietnam War! The Bible was canonized by the Jews, long before Jesus was born! That same Bible is now published with the 27, later. canonized Commentaries to include the 4 Gospels we use today. You, neighbor, are one of the rottenest Thread Hijackers I have come across in 21 years! Of course, not being a Moderator here I will need to stand down and report you to the Admin. here. You have not only come in here to hijack this thread considering the Rapture, you have perpetuated some of the most ridiculous lies I have ever heard spew from the lips of anyone4 professing the name of the Christ!

Yea... Since the word of God is now of none effect... Instead of church we will all gather around and tell fishing stories at the creek and drink beer come Sunday morning... LOL... Not!!! <_< ... Please!!!

 

[Robbie]

I'd rather sit around a creek and drink some beers with some friends that want to talk about their personal relationship with God than sit in a building with a bunch of people I don't even really know and listen to some guy talk for an hour who thinks he knows God better than me because he's and expert in a book... haha

And I don't see Jiffy saying the Word of God is of no effect... I think he's just pointing out that the Word of God is Living Person... the Word of God is Jesus... and Jesus isn't a book.

The question Jiffy keeps asking about the bible reminds me of when I went golfing with one of the pastor's daughters one time and I told her I believe the Word of God was Jesus and not a book and fire basically shot out of her eyes... haha... after she bascially told me I was the devil I asked her if she thought, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" meant that in the beginning the bible was spinning around in outer space and she said, "Yeah" hahahhaha

 

[Rach1370]

This I agree with, and if it doesn't point to Jesus and glorify God it is not the truth.

As far as trusting God to see His Word continue, I do, His Word (Jesus) continues and lives in me. I am His epistle.

What do you think of the mormon bible, the JW bible and bibles that contain the apocrypha?

I think the Mormons and JW are more interested in their own agenda's, rather than Gods. Their way and their book comes from one man, just the Islamic religion does. As they do not worship Jesus as equal God and man, that His sacrifice is the only thing that redeems, and various other dodgy teachings that demote Christ, I don't think they even count.
I have never read the apocrypha, and to be honest, I don't want to. I am uneasy every time I hear of them. Can they be used as historic readings, maybe. Should they be canonized? I don't think so...but again, I'm not making an absolute claim. I know the Catholic's have them in their 'bible', but as the Catholic's practice many things that promote a 'Jesus plus' belief, I don't think we can assume that they would object to books that may promote the same thing. Does that make sense?

Look, here's the thing. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you ought to resonate with scripture. The Holy Spirit played an integral part in creating the book we have today. Dont you think He'd want you reading and respecting it? It just doesn't make sense to me that you would question it. Question people, their use or misuse of it, sure!! Robbie keeps saying this, I think....he's come across too many people who use the Bible incorrectly or for their own agendas. But that speaks badly of people, not the Bible! If a pastor says something that just sounds wrong, you back your claim with scripture!! If you come to him and say "the Spirit within me tells me you got that wrong"....he could just as easily say "the Spirit within me led me to this...so you're wrong". If you say to him, 'I really felt led that what you were saying was wrong...I checked scripture and look...right here it backs me up".
Too many people claim to be Spirit led and then go horribly astray, leading people with them (founder of the JW!) but if we rely on both the Spirit and God's word, we'll keep to that narrow path!

 

[jiggyfly]

I think the Mormons and JW are more interested in their own agenda's, rather than Gods. Their way and their book comes from one man, just the Islamic religion does. As they do not worship Jesus as equal God and man, that His sacrifice is the only thing that redeems, and various other dodgy teachings that demote Christ, I don't think they even count.
I have never read the apocrypha, and to be honest, I don't want to. I am uneasy every time I hear of them. Can they be used as historic readings, maybe. Should they be canonized? I don't think so...but again, I'm not making an absolute claim. I know the Catholic's have them in their 'bible', but as the Catholic's practice many things that promote a 'Jesus plus' belief, I don't think we can assume that they would object to books that may promote the same thing. Does that make sense?

Look, here's the thing. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you ought to resonate with scripture. The Holy Spirit played an integral part in creating the book we have today. Dont you think He'd want you reading and respecting it? It just doesn't make sense to me that you would question it. Question people, their use or misuse of it, sure!! Robbie keeps saying this, I think....he's come across too many people who use the Bible incorrectly or for their own agendas. But that speaks badly of people, not the Bible! If a pastor says something that just sounds wrong, you back your claim with scripture!! If you come to him and say "the Spirit within me tells me you got that wrong"....he could just as easily say "the Spirit within me led me to this...so you're wrong". If you say to him, 'I really felt led that what you were saying was wrong...I checked scripture and look...right here it backs me up".
Too many people claim to be Spirit led and then go horribly astray, leading people with them (founder of the JW!) but if we rely on both the Spirit and God's word, we'll keep to that narrow path!

Have you actually read their bibles? While there are some differences much is very similar and some parts read the same. Are all bibles equal?

I know many bible thumpers who have gone terribly astray from misinterpreting scripture, tis what the religious system is founded on.

 

[Rach1370]

There is a way to know, but it doesn't come from men's doctrines, nor just by reading scholarly commentaries. It comes by staying in God's Holy Writ and prayer. Christ Jesus said by continuing in His Word is how to become His disciple, and that's how we would know the truth, and the truth would make us free.

Our gathering to Christ Jesus at His return is going to occur only one way, not many different ways. It will happen as written in God's Word, which requires understanding in all of His Word, not just relying on a couple of verses. In other words, it is not only revealed by Paul in 1 Thess.4 alone, it is revealed throughout the whole Bible, including the OT prophets, which is where Apostle Paul was mostly pulling from.

Many things written in the New Testament Books pull directly from the Old Testament Books. Yet most of the various interpretations by men's doctrines of the gathering of the saints to Christ are based mostly from the New Testament Books.

In Acts 1 how Christ returns is only hinted at. But Zechariah 14 in the OT prophets gives a direct detail of His return to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. What does that show? The last nine chapters of Ezekiel are about the future Millennial reign of Christ and His elect, and actually gives more details of it than Revelation. What does that show? I see that like God saying, "Do I really have to show you this again?"

If we ask a minister that covers the gathering to Christ from only the New Testament, a question like, "Where's the Old Testament witnesses that go with that?", and they say something like, "We don't live in the Old Testament anymore," or, "The Old Testament is all history," then how can we expect to know? I've covered Zechariah 14 to believers past middle age that had been going to Church all their lives, and they had never studied it before. And that's only one OT witness.

Once we cover all the OT and NT witnesses, then The Holy Spirit will put it all together for us in time.

So basically you're saying that there's not sure way to rely on men's doctrines. That the truth will only come through prayer and constant study of God's word. Time and commitment to those two things.
I guess I know that. But here's the thing. With every other doctrine and theology in the Bible, I've read it, heard sermons and commentaries on it. Some I immediately know...'that's off', while others just resonate as the truth..."yes! That's exactly what scripture says". You know the truth because scripture backs it up and the Spirit within you is overjoyed to hear the truth...it makes your heart sing!
But the doctrine of the Rapture....no matter what I read, of the Bible or of men, no matter how I pray, I get no conviction. I'm starting to think that God just doesn't want me to know about that time....that He is telling me to just let it go and trust that He has the end time and what will happen perfectly in the palm of His hand. that I don't need to know what happens, I just need to live for Him now. Ha! Yes, I can just imagine my loving Father guiding me towards that message!