The Rapture

treeoflife · May 21, 2008

(followerofchrist;50019)
Matthew 24: 29-31 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Need I say more?
Actually... that shows me that it is a pre-trib rapture.The tribes of the earth mourn... and then the elect are gathered from "the four winds," and from one end of heaven to the other. There are three heavens--the sky (where the birds fly), space (where the celestial bodies are, like stars), and heaven (where God is).Any which one you pick... Christians are not on the earth... they are gathered FROM HEAVEN when Christ returns after the tribulation... IE, they obviously were not on the earth with the tribes of the earth...Christians are raptured pre-trib... you need not say more... you said it all... is that what you were trying to say?

Jordan · May 21, 2008

(treeoflife;50021)
Actually... that shows me that it is a pre-trib rapture.The tribes of the earth mourn... and then the elect are gathered from "the four winds," and from one end of heaven to the other. There are three heavens--the sky (where the birds fly), space (where the celestial bodies are, like stars), and heaven (where God is).Any which one you pick... Christians are not on the earth... they are gathered FROM HEAVEN when Christ returns after the tribulation... IE, they obviously were not on the earth with the tribes of the earth...Christians are raptured pre-trib... you need not say more... you said it all... is that what you were trying to say?
Do you even know anything?The word Pre means before, not after...so don't give us the lie of Satan, and then say God says it...

treeoflife · May 21, 2008

(thesuperjag;50022)
Do you even know anything?The word Pre means before, not after...so don't give us the lie of Satan, and then say God says it...
lol, it's amusing to watch your squirm. "Lie of Satan" is your favorite phrase.Yes... read what I said again. If the Christians are gathered "from heaven" they are obviously not on the earth with the tribes of the earth.So, either all the Christians just happen to be taking a flight and are on airplanes at the very moment Christ returns, or they are somewhere else entirely (IE, they were raptured Pre-trib).And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

DONNIE · May 21, 2008

Thank you for the commentary treeoflife. Thats a piece of scripture I will study further.Donnie

Christina · May 21, 2008

(treeoflife;50023)
lol, it's amusing to watch your squirm. "Lie of Satan" is your favorite phrase.Yes... read what I said again. If the Christians are gathered "from heaven" they are obviously not on the earth with the tribes of the earth.So, either all the Christians just happen to be taking a flight and are on airplanes at the very moment Christ returns, or they are somewhere else entirely (IE, they were raptured Pre-trib).And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And where is heaven at this time my friend this is the coming of the Lord and heaven is on earth heaven is where Christ is. this is not about pre trib rapture or refer to it in any way. this is not air its heaven on earth. Satan is the prince of the air and flesh and blood can not enter heaven that why we are all changed at the last trump because heaven is here and flesh and blood can not be in nor ever enter into heaven reguradless of where it is.

Jordan · May 21, 2008

Kriss is right, and here is scripture for flesh and blood can not enter Heaven.I Corinthians 15:50 - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Life just amaze me *sigh*

Christina · May 21, 2008

(DONNIE;50002)
The word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
yes you are right just as he protect the Hebrews at passover or Daniel in the furnace right here on earth do you even understand what you are being protected from?? the tribulation period is shortened to 5 months (rev9:5 & 9:10) the first half 2 1/2 months Antichrist makes everything on earth wonderful he comes peacefully and prosperously so what are you afraid of here that everyone will be doing great while he tries to win you over ??the last 2 1/2 months he declares himself God kills the two wittness's puts the Elect christians on trial for ten days (Rev 2) so what kind of Christian is so weak they can not trust God to take care of them 10 days ?I would gladly stand 10 days of jail for the Lord?? When he tells us fear not IMHO if one cant take 10 days of tribulation for God after reading what some sufferd they deserve what they get.So This is what you think you have to be rapture from??? 10 days trouble. And even then its only the Elect because God will speak through them Mark 13 they are not to premeditate what they will say. Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye have shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Christina · May 21, 2008

(treeoflife;50021)
Actually... that shows me that it is a pre-trib rapture.The tribes of the earth mourn... and then the elect are gathered from "the four winds," and from one end of heaven to the other. There are three heavens--the sky (where the birds fly), space (where the celestial bodies are, like stars), and heaven (where God is).Any which one you pick... Christians are not on the earth... they are gathered FROM HEAVEN when Christ returns after the tribulation... IE, they obviously were not on the earth with the tribes of the earth...Christians are raptured pre-trib... you need not say more... you said it all... is that what you were trying to say?
I quoted the wrong post of yours here so I'll recopy the answer to this oneAnd where is heaven at this time my friend this is the coming of the Lord and heaven is on earth heaven is where Christ is. this is not about pre trib rapture or refer to it in any way. this is not air its heaven on earth.Satan is the prince of the air and flesh and blood can not enter heaven that why we are all changed at the last trump because heaven is here and flesh and blood can not be in nor ever enter into heaven reguradless of where it is.And this is the answer to your After that tribulation post:Actully you would be mistaken if you think this is rapture proofThere are two tribulation Satans/antichrists first which is the one you guys think you need to escape from then after that tribulation is Gods wrath/his tribulation upon Satan/antichrist at his 2nd coming its a tribulation upon Satan this is Gods tribulation and it is when Christ returns with his army and takes his wrath on Satan and his armies this is who Gods wrath is poured out on this is the battle of Armageddon and I doubt it will last an hourRev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 ¶ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great ..........this has nothing to do with the believers and most likely will be over very quickly God wont take long to wipe out Satan and his army...............Seems a little as though you guys are just grasping any verse out of context to make it say what you choose thats dangerous and will confuse you.Dont you think if it was that easy any one could prove rapture?? We must not take the word of context without understanding how to rightly divide it in context.I'll be happy to go over the events with you guys if you want let me know

Super Kal · May 22, 2008

(kriss;49997)
I understand this dilema Donnie the problem is where did all this come from it was men in 1830 following the visions of a girl who later went insane it was picked up by Darby and then scofield and spread our greart grandparents were not taught this its a mans teaching its not Gods Wordsare these preachers churches all purposely misleading their flocks ?No they were all taught this in school if you do not follow this doctrine you are denied a T.V, ministry you are ostersized in the religious comunity. Remember church is a business money is the bottom line. true they think they are earning their money in doing good. but money still rules.Just 40 years ago there was not one belief in Rapture there was pre,mid,post and No rapture it was an organized move to make pre-trib the current doctrine. It had nothing to do with Gods Word. Many teach it out of peer pressure many just ignorantly believe it reguardless it is not in Gods Word.thats why its still called a "theroy" it comes down to Amos 8:11So the only question one must answer for themselfs is are you going to follow Gods Words or Mens.
well, kriss, the first time a mention of a rapture was in 373 AD by a man named Ephraem of Nisibis...""For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."but like the Bible has pointed out just because it's popular in the world, doesn't always make it true...

Christina · May 22, 2008

yes super kal it was a couple lines in 5 poems is all that exists of his work and that was a mistranslation of the parables of the tears it wasnt a taught doctrine and as far as I know the only person who claims to have seen it is grant Jefferys People could misinterpt a verse even back then calling it a taught church doctrine is another lie of desperate men to prove an unwritten theroy of rapture.

treeoflife · May 22, 2008

(kriss;50040)
I quoted the wrong post of yours here so I'll recopy the answer to this oneAnd where is heaven at this time my friend this is the coming of the Lord and heaven is on earth heaven is where Christ is. this is not about pre trib rapture or refer to it in any way. this is not air its heaven on earth.Satan is the prince of the air and flesh and blood can not enter heaven that why we are all changed at the last trump because heaven is here and flesh and blood can not be in nor ever enter into heaven reguradless of where it is.And this is the answer to your After that tribulation post:Actully you would be mistaken if you think this is rapture proofThere are two tribulation Satans/antichrists first which is the one you guys think you need to escape from then after that tribulation is Gods wrath/his tribulation upon Satan/antichrist at his 2nd coming its a tribulation upon Satan this is Gods tribulation and it is when Christ returns with his army and takes his wrath on Satan and his armies this is who Gods wrath is poured out on this is the battle of Armageddon and I doubt it will last an hourRev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:17 ¶ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great ..........this has nothing to do with the believers and most likely will be over very quickly God wont take long to wipe out Satan and his army...............Seems a little as though you guys are just grasping any verse out of context to make it say what you choose thats dangerous and will confuse you.Dont you think if it was that easy any one could prove rapture?? We must not take the word of context without understanding how to rightly divide it in context.I'll be happy to go over the events with you guys if you want let me know
I come into this truly having no persuasion as to when we will be taken... pre, mid, or post trib. So lets look at Matthew and what will happen immediately following the tribulation, again.

Matthew 24:29-31Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

So we see the following happen:...stars shall fall *from heaven*......the powers of *the heavens* shall be shaken......a sign of the Son of man *in heaven*......elect are gathered from one end *of heaven* to the other......the tribes *of the earth* mourn...Now, the difference is made... there is a clear difference in God's Word between what is referred to as a "heaven" and what is not. Jesus goes on to say, "the tribes of the earth will mourn. If this should be referred to as heaven, why didn't Jesus use the same word He had been using previously? If the earth is heaven, then why are they gathered from the earth... and the saints gathered from a different place, "the heavens"? Nobody calls the earth heaven here, or the heavens earth--distinction is made between the two."The tribes of the earth mourn." The distinction that heaven, or the heavens (whichever you choose) is a seperate place has been made clear. Since Jesus speaks of heaven within this very quotation, He could have easily said heaven, but He didn't. When He referred to those UNSAVED, they were on earth. When He referred to the elect, they were in heaven. So, whether they are spiritually floating in the sky, in space, or present with God in heaven is up to you do figure out, but it is clear... they (the elect) are not on the earth.Furthermore, your reference to Revelation was unconvincing. It only made me consider a pre or mid-trib further.

Revelation 16:21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Immediately where your reference to Revelation 16:21 ends, chapter 17 of Revelation begins.

Revelation 17:1-2And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Again, the distinction is made that hail is falling out of heaven (again, there are three heavens. Sky where birds fly, space where stars are, and heaven where God is). This shows that the earth and heaven are seperated, and when Jesus explained the events immediately following the tribulation... the elect were not on earth... they were gathered from the heavens, and the tribes ON THE EARTH mourned. Two distict places. The elect must have left the earth pre-trib or mid-trib, but not post.

DONNIE · May 22, 2008

Excellent post. Thank you. I appreciate the posts from both views. I'm really confused. I thought I understood and was leaning to the side of post trib until I spoke with an extreemly knowledgable person who I have very much respect. It is very ambiguous as even Paul pointed out. I do not belive God will leave his Bride to suffer the wrath of tribulation. (i know Jag, were always in tribulation) Donnie

Christina · May 22, 2008

(treeoflife;50060)
I come into this truly having no persuasion as to when we will be taken... pre, mid, or post trib. So lets look at Matthew and what will happen immediately following the tribulation, again.

Matthew 24:29-31Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

So we see the following happen:...stars shall fall *from heaven*......the powers of *the heavens* shall be shaken......a sign of the Son of man *in heaven*......elect are gathered from one end *of heaven* to the other......the tribes *of the earth* mourn...Now, the difference is made... there is a clear difference in God's Word between what is referred to as a "heaven" and what is not. Jesus goes on to say, "the tribes of the earth will mourn. If this should be referred to as heaven, why didn't Jesus use the same word He had been using previously? If the earth is heaven, then why are they gathered from the earth... and the saints gathered from a different place, "the heavens"? Nobody calls the earth heaven here, or the heavens earth--distinction is made between the two."The tribes of the earth mourn." The distinction that heaven, or the heavens (whichever you choose) is a seperate place has been made clear. Since Jesus speaks of heaven within this very quotation, He could have easily said heaven, but He didn't. When He referred to those UNSAVED, they were on earth. When He referred to the elect, they were in heaven. So, whether they are spiritually floating in the sky, in space, or present with God in heaven is up to you do figure out, but it is clear... they (the elect) are not on the earth.Furthermore, your reference to Revelation was unconvincing. It only made me consider a pre or mid-trib further.

Revelation 16:21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Immediately where your reference to Revelation 16:21 ends, chapter 17 of Revelation begins.

Revelation 17:1-2And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Again, the distinction is made that hail is falling out of heaven (again, there are three heavens. Sky where birds fly, space where stars are, and heaven where God is). This shows that the earth and heaven are seperated, and when Jesus explained the events immediately following the tribulation... the elect were not on earth... they were gathered from the heavens, and the tribes ON THE EARTH mourned. Two distict places. The elect must have left the earth pre-trib or mid-trib, but not post.
Rev. is not in order it jumps back and forth you are seeing thing from two perspectivesyou pulling from before and after the coming. you seem also to be assuming that the Sky disappears it is still a heaven sky just because Christ comes to earth does not mean there is no heavens in the sky also just that heaven (kingdom where Christ resides) comes to earth it is an expanse and means several differnt things in Matt24 the word is Heavens plural Heavens the Word in the greek is ouranos1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in ita) the universe, the world

the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are producedc) the sidereal or starry heavens2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beingsYou can not just make an assumption the word means what you want it to when if other verse contradict it. We are told flesh and blood can not enter heaven(gods kingdom)Now the Elect are gathered from the four winds of heaven but you can clearly see that the Word can mean the universe the WorldNow we are told they will be put on trial in Mark 13 and Rev 2The Elect are here on earth they are the overcomers so the idea they are somewhere in heaven when the word itself can mean the World Universe cause's a contradiction where a contradiction is caused it is because we are reading something wrong. All other verse do not support using this verse's the way you have used them

DONNIE · May 22, 2008

Ok. You can disprove a pre-trib rapture. But to an ordinary Christian who reads their Bible, even studies scripture and lives as a Christian should; it is easy to see how easy it is for one to belive in a pre-trib rapture. It's almost as plain as it can get in the scriptures. I can not believe that God, Jesus and the apostles would make it so confusing and difficult. I also can not believe that 85% of the churches in America are teaching a false doctrine. I can not believe that all the TV evangelists are wrong. You guys think what you want. I believe in Jesus Christ and KNOW that I have salvation thru Jesus Christ. I will not be one of the misled.Donnie

Christina · May 22, 2008

Well I disagree if you had never heard of it these verse's being taken of context to proof something that was never taught would be ridiculous I would never be put in a postion of having to disprove what was never there in the first place. this doctrine is not taught in any other country it was not taught by any prophet nor apostel nor Christ nor any church father and once you get it out of your head you can see that it is never taught at all by anyone . Because some take verse to mean what they do not say, doent mean any one would see a false doctrine except one under the blindness of lies.a delusionWhy would a Christian even think of twisting these verse to prove a doctrine they never heard??Like I said this is a matter of making a man made doctrine then trying to find verse's you can twist to make it work.Most bible scholars would never dream of using the verse's presented here as proof of Rapture even if they believed it because they simply do not say that. What we have here is people pulling scripture out of contextOnce you come out of the delusion of rapture lie you can clearly see it was never written its an american mind set of easy escape with no responability and they can avoid having to bother with understanding Rev its the easy button of fast food religion.

DONNIE · May 22, 2008

All I am asking is how can 85% of the churches in America, most TV evangalists and the majority of Christians be wrong. Why would preachers keep preaching it if its wrong. Why hasn't someone corrected 85% of America. 85% is a bunch of people and it's hard to believe that just 15% know their stuff and will be saved while the rest of us wont be. That makes no sense and like I said..I doubt God meant for it to be so rediculously hard to understand that only a select few like you can figure out the riddle.Donnie

treeoflife · May 22, 2008

(kriss;50073)
Rev. is not in order it jumps back and forth you are seeing thing from two perspectivesyou pulling from before and after the coming. you seem also to be assuming that the Sky disappears it is still a heaven sky just because Christ comes to earth does not mean there is no heavens in the sky also just that heaven (kingdom where Christ resides) comes to earth it is an expanse and means several differnt things in Matt24 the word is Heavens plural Heavens the Word in the greek is ouranos1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in ita) the universe, the world

the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are producedc) the sidereal or starry heavens2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beingsYou can not just make an assumption the word means what you want it to when if other verse contradict it. We are told flesh and blood can not enter heaven(gods kingdom)Now the Elect are gathered from the four winds of heaven but you can clearly see that the Word can mean the universe the WorldNow we are told they will be put on trial in Mark 13 and Rev 2The Elect are here on earth they are the overcomers so the idea they are somewhere in heaven when the word itself can mean the World Universe cause's a contradiction where a contradiction is caused it is because we are reading something wrong. All other verse do not support using this verse's the way you have used them
Okay, on the Revelation part that's fine. We can ignore the Revelation so it doesn't cause confusion. I only added it as an after thought. We can just stick to Mathew then since it is the key verse, and we know it is talking about, "immediately" after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

"Earth" comes from the Greek "gē", "winds" comes from the Greek "anemos", and "heavens" referenced here in Matthew comes from the Greek "ouranos".[url="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G417&t=kjv]anemos[/url] - "Winds"

1) wind, a violent agitation and stream of air2) a very strong tempestuous wind3) the four principal or cardinal winds, hence the four corners of heaven

[url="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3772&t=kjv]ouranos[/url] - "heavens"

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in ita) the universe, the world

the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are producedc) the sidereal or starry heavens2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Now... the word "earth" from the Greek, "gē"[url="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1093&t=kjv]gē[/url] - "earth"

1) arable land2) the ground, the earth as a standing place3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water4) the earth as a wholea) the earth as opposed to the heavens

the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

The world or universe by no means is the earth, and to say it is, is to to ignore what simply is... All of the definitions of "heavens" have absolutely nothing to do with a singular global planet, specifically the earth. And, Universe and "world" are FAR from the earth. Totally different meanings. The word earth is a totally different word than heavens, with totally different meaning, and Jesus uses a totally different word for good reason. If Jesus wanted to say the earth, He could have. He just said it only moments earlier when He said that the tribes of the EARTH mourn. He then, making the difference, says that the elect will be gathered from the four "winds" and from one end of "heaven" to the other."Winds" and "heaven" by no means are the earth. Jesus could have said earth if He wanted to, if that is where He meant... but He didn't, because that's not what He meant.

Christina · May 22, 2008

Amos 8:11Money do not all ministers go to the same schools?many did hold out Van Impee was the last he was threatened along with others if you do not teach it no T.V. show he used to teach against it

Christina · May 22, 2008

(treeoflife;50079)
Okay, on the Revelation part that's fine. We can ignore the Revelation so it doesn't cause confusion. I only added it as an after thought. We can just stick to Mathew then since it is the key verse, and we know it is talking about, "immediately" after the tribulation.